Mounting scope mount on M1A

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There are many guys with many rounds fired on the original Chinese bolts.
They check the heads space and inspect the bolt often... No issues yet.

I currently own eight Chinese M14s, four that are GTG/ready to shoot
have USGI TRW bolts that were installed by Smith Enterprise, Inc. (SEI).

I decided a USGI bolt conversion by SEI was cheap insurance.
 
how do you know if it is the poly bolt of the USGI bolt as I can not tell. I could do the swap myself. I am off to sears to get that hole punch
 
A USGI bolt will have markings much like this TRW and a test dimple.
The MK14 MOD 0 engraving between the dimple and makers mark is not standard.

MK-14_MOD_0SEI-4.jpg


Chinese bolts have no exterior markings, but they do numbers stenciled on the other side.

ChiCombolts4sale.jpg



Head over to Different's M1A Site for additional information.






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The chinese bolts do not have any markings on them I don't think, maybe they will have some hand etched numbers like the trigger group housing. USGI bolts will have numbers followed by the maker's name like XXXXXHRA, XXXXXXSA etc on the top visible. I do not think the bolt swap is a drag and drop procedure as you need to account for headspace and I am not sure the USGI bolts are always compatible with the chinese barrels. That is why everyone recommends to take them to a good M14 smith.

EDIT: well there you have it. There are sites selling chinese bolts complete with guts for $30 that should tell you something. Also I think people recommend replacing the hammer, trigger and sear. Though I have a complete chinese backup trigger assembly and I would use it as is unless something is off.
 
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ahhh ok well i am pretty sure there are not too many of those in the minnesota area and i would hate to send away but if i have to who would you recommend? Oh it is a chinese bolt
 
Warbird Customs or Smith Enterprises Inc. Warbirds will be less expensive I believe but it would be worth your while to give them both a call just to get a second opinion. There are others out there too maybe H2O Man can chime in also.

Don't feel too bad you got a real good deal and the poly receivers are about as close to a real M14 as you are going to get. They even made select fire versions that are pretty much dead on ringers for an M14. With just a little work you will have a real gem. I mean you can shoot it as is. I am sure there are thousands of people out there doing just that not even aware of the issues but just keep real close eye on your headspace and if it keeps getting larger you know you have problems. That is a risk many who know are not willing to take. Even when an M14 suffers from catastrophic failure people generally walk away due to the inherent safety features but who wants to take the chance with their face and such.
 
how do you know if it is the poly bolt of the USGI bolt as I can not tell. I could do the swap myself.
Do you have a headspacing gauge? You're talking about "blow your face off" stuff here. A bolt swap is not a "drop-in" upgrade most of the time. A smith needs to headspace that rifle when you swap bolts.

Jason
 
PFCLEE11B ahhh ok well i am pretty sure there are not too many of those in the minnesota area and i would hate to send away but if i have to who would you recommend?

This is not a do it yourself job.

Ron Smith at SEI is the man for the job, He knows more about the
Chinese M14 than anyone - even the Chinese that built them.

I use USP to ship my M14s to and from SEI.
2nd day Air and insured for full replacement value.

Also, Chinese trigger groups are excellent as-is.
There is no reason to replace serviceable parts.
ChiCom TGs respond to NM mods just like USGI.
Tow of my Poly Tech triggers are 100% Chinese
with SEIs MAX-PAK, I can't feel any difference
between these two and the two TRW triggers
with SEIs MAX-PAK trigger upgrade.
 
I agree the Chinese triggers are great values. I just bought a complete chinese trigger assembly for $60. When you compare that to the USGI trigger prices it is hard to argue the value in that and it is pretty close to my match SAI trigger hough not quite as crisp but that can be adjusted. I know SEI also sells chinese M14 parts. I tried to buy a trigger off him but this one came up before they got around to getting back to me.
 
I do not think the bolt swap is a drag and drop procedure as you need to account for headspace and I am not sure the USGI bolts are always compatible with the chinese barrels. That is why everyone recommends to take them to a good M14 smith.
It is NOT a DIY project. You need to have someone who is a gunsmith and who knows what they're doing, particularly with Chinese M14s, do the work for you.

Basically, there are three "big names" in converting Chinese rifles to handle USGI bolts; Fulton, Smith, and Warbird.

Fulton is the most expensive of the three, and they will insist that you scrap the chinese barrel and have them install one of their own. While I don't think anyone will argue that their work is shoddy, there are many who will argue that you don't need to scrap the chinese barrel. Fulton is, I believe, the most expensive of the three.

Second is Smith/SEI. I know very little about them, except that their work is top notch, they are backordered to high heaven (last I checked), and they ain't cheap, either. I don't know if they require you to scrap the chinese barrel.

Warbirds is the smallest operation of the three (it's really just one guy), but he has a great reputation. He will NOT require you to scrap the chinese barrel, he will mate the USGI bolt to the existing barrel. So far as I can tell, he's very reasonably priced. I'm about to send a rifle to him for this very same type of work. I can't think of a better endorsement.

Here's the slight longer version of why Polytechs are so good, and why you need to have the bolt conversion done, or at the very least watch your headspace carefully:

The Polytech reciever as built around M14 match-grade receiver blueprints, and the chinese made it out of extraordinarily good steel. The rest of the gun, though, they reverse-engineered from M14s and M1As they obtained through various means. This includes the bolt. The bolt is not dimensionally correct in most examples and the lugs are not hard enough in many of them. This results in the locking lugs (the things protecting your face from the contained forces of the 7.62 NATO round) not always mating up properly, and they're frequently too soft. What will happen is that they will start to deform, due to all of that pressure being borne on a smaller area than planned, and that smaller area not being as hard as it should be. Eventually, the bolt will start to not return home and lock up in the right place ("right place" being measured in thousandths of an inch, you can't eyeball it), and your headspace starts to get larger. Soon enough, the headspace will be excessive enough that the thing can Kaboom.

This does not happen on all Polytech M14S guns. Some of the bolts are hard enough to handle the stress. Some of the bolts mate up a little better with the receiver. Some guns aren't shot enough. AFAIK, there's no way to tell until you start to see deformation, test and see excessive headspace, or the thing s'plodes on you.

This may seem bad, but it's not. As was mentioned, the receiver is EXCELLENT. You have the basis of a very good M14 in your hands. Swap out the bolt, have Warbird or someone else match it to the receiver and barrel, and you will have an M14 that is built on a forced, dimensionally correct, tool-steel reciever, with a very good chrome-lined barrel (there's nothing bad about the barrel) and a USGI bolt. That will be a very good M14 clone that should outlive you, even if you shoot it alot. And, it will cost you way less than a new SAI, and will be a more durable gun.

AFAIK, the reason that some gunsmiths say you need to replace the barrel is ostensibly because the USGI bolt will not match up right with the chinese barrel extension. Some fiddling little work will need to be done to the bolt and the barrel to get it mated right with proper headspace. Rather than take the time and effort to do that, they'll offer to remove your chinese barrel and replace it with one of theirs, for which you must pay. Pessimists will say that there is a profit motive there. Others will say that it is because mating the two is tricky and may not work right. Tim at Warbird is very outspoken that he can and will do it properly, can and has done thousands properly, and that you don't need to scrap the perfectly good (and chrome-lined!) chinese barrel. I don't know who is right. I'm not a gunsmith. All I know is Warbird's work is good and his rifles shoot fine, with the Chicom barrels.

If you opt not to have the work done, or decide to do it, but put it off, do yourself a favor. Get headspace gauges and check the rifle every time you go shooting. If you start to see changes, STOP SHOOTING AND GET THE BOLT CONVERSION DONE. Once they start to go, they go fast. Certainly if the bolt closes on a field gauge, you have a grenade on your hands. You can also strip the rifle and look for signs of peening and deformation on the lugs. If you see any, STOP SHOOTING IT.

We wouldn't be warning you if it wasn't a serious issue.

Mike
 
Coronach

Basically, there are three "big names" in converting Chinese
rifles to handle USGI bolts; Fulton, Smith, and Warbird.
Avoid Fulton Armory.


Smith Enterprise, Inc. is busy building GI M14s for the GWOT over in
the sand box, but they will build your M14 to military specifications.
Investing in M14s built by SEI is well worth the time, money and effort.



Go with WarBird if your budget is tight.
I have no idea what WarBird's wait time is, but I have
read good things about his work and he does have a forum.
 
thanks for all the help I will be contacting warbirds to see about when he can take my rifle and when i can get it back as I do not want my new toy exploding in my face. I plan on using this as my hunting rifle
 
Be prepared for a little "lead time" in emails from him. I sent him an email and it took a couple of days to get a response. I gather that he is an old school gunsmith, more at home in the shop than with this newfangled intarweb thingamjiggy. He'll get back with you, though.

Also, if you're using it as a hunting rifle (low volume of rounds), you can probably use a set of gauges to be safe until you can afford the USGI bolt conversion. Check it now, and keep checking it, every time you go to the range (before and after). What can get you in trouble is checking it, deciding it's ok, and then doing a day of high-volume training. A couple hundred rounds in a lug lets go, and, well...trouble.

Mike
 
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ok that stupid pin is not budging and this time i had the right tools and was actually using force not sure what is going on
 
Oh I forgot squirt some break free or liquid wrench in the top a bottom holes and let it soak up. Did you try from the top down and hit it hard to get it to start moving? I figure I had to hit mine as hard as to drive a nail into a solid piece of wood (within reason obviously). Maybe the darn rifle does not want a scope :confused:

If it does not want out come out you have two choices:

1) Get someone to drill the thing out
2) Get a Bassett Machine mount. They do not require the use of the stripper clip guide. They are very sturdy also.

Also you never did say what kind of scope mount you are using.
 
what would i use to drill this out as I do not want to have to spend another $100 for another scope mount
 
Did we mention the M14 has great iron sites?

That pin must be in there good sorry these things can be frustrating. I have not heard of someone having such problems getting a pin out. You may want to give SEI a call in the morning as see if they have any pointers as they do these all the time. You can get a quote too on the bolt.

Warning this may be a good job for a professional but if you are good with power tools and all then...

To err on the safe side start with a drill bit that is a little bit larger than the inside diameter of the pin and increase as you go along. You want to remove enough metal from the inside of the pin so that you can tap it out or break it out. Take it slow obviously you do not want to take any metal off the receiver or get out of the pin hole track. Unfortunately a 3/32 punch would still be useful for this job though and remeber once you get the pin free the clip guide slides off only in one direction.
 
what would i use to drill this out as I do not want to have to spend another $100 for another scope mount
I'll be blunt. I'm a "more torque" guy myself, and I firmly believe the philosophy of "if it jams, force it. If it breaks, it needed to be fixed anyway". However, firearms are very rarely instruments upon which the "whang on it a few times with a hammer" approach works very well. You broke the punch? This is a sign that something is amiss. Either your approach is wrong, the tool is wrong, or the gun is wrong. In this case, I'll go with the gun. The chinese did a really crappy finishing job on the guns. This can sometimes result in holes not being free of burrs, holes not going the whole way through, holes being parkerized shut, or holes being peened or staked shut by the assembler.

lets try this:

1. Take some pictures of the pin and hole.

2. Apply some penetrating oil (Kroil, etc)

3. Upload the pictures.

4. Wait for a response. This will give us a chance to see what's what, and also allow the oil a chance to do its work.

Mike
 
Forgot about this one, here is a link from the SEI site on removing bolt stop roll pins. Different pin same issues:


http://www.smithenterprise.com/support08.html

M14 EXTENDED BOLT STOP INSTALLATION

REMOVING A ROLL PIN, OPTION 1

Situation: all the roll pins have been in those M-14s for about 30 years and may be rusted into place.

Start by squirting some Kano Kroil on and into the roll pin. Let it stand for 30 minutes to an hour. Sometimes this helps break the rust loose when trying to drive out the roll pin. Contact [email protected], 615-833-4101, or visit www.kanolabs.com
Place the receiver in a vice, muzzle end up. Using a high grade 1/16” Starrett pin punch, place the punch on the edge of the roll pin (so it does not slip driectly into the hole of the pin) and start to tap it out. You will only be able to move the roll pin about 1/32” or less – this is just to help break the roll pin loose.
Modify a 3/32” pin punch to further dislodge the pin.
Grind a flat on the punch, taking it down to the OD of the pin punch, and grind a flat on the pin (3/32” is OK). Note that the roll pin hole in the receiver is .094” ID and a Starrett 3/32” is smaller at .0930”
See if the modified punch can be put into the roll pin hole and tapped further. Do this with caution until the pin punch stops. Because it is now stuck, you will have to remove the punch without breaking the receiver. You may have to place the punch into the vise and tap the receiver until you free the punch.
Look to see if you have moved the roll pin out far enough to grab it with a vise, about 1/4” or so.
With the receiver on its side and the roll pin extending down, grab the pin in the vise, tightening the jaws until the pin is flattened.
Using a brass hammer or hard-faced mallet, hit the back end of the receiver until the roll pin comes out.
You will need a new roll pin and we always belt sand the OD of the new roll pin down on about 3/4 of the length of the pin, so as to make just a slip fit. The rest of the unground pin will hold the bolt stop without a problem. Always lube the pin before installing.

REMOVING A ROLL PIN, OPTION 2

Sometimes option 1 (shown above) will not work for whatever reason, so we do the following:

Obtain the following items, which can be found at J&L Industrial Supply, 800-521-9520, www.jlindustrial.com catalog Volume 75, pages 1722W, 1723W:
FORDOM flexible shaft tool kit, order no. FDM-02274E with 1/8” arbors, order no. FDM-39060M M6
DREMEL (36 to the pack) 15/16” dia. cut-off wheels, order no. DRM-00409J or DREMEL P/N 409.
Cut the roll pin:
Using the tools listed above, mount the cut-off wheel to the arbor, and the arbor into the hand piece chuck.
Push the standard bolt stop in the rear direction of the receiver as far as it will go. This exposes some of the roll pin.
Cut through the pin, taking care not to touch the receiver with the cut-off wheel, if possible. Do not worry about cutting the old bolt stop.
Go to the other side and repeat this process if needed.
Once you have the old bolt stop out of the way, it is usually a simple matter to get the remaining pins out from both sides without breaking the receiver
 
hmmm does not seem to be doing anything... I am using "Liquid Wrench" Penetrating oil as I could not find Kanol anywhere.
 
Liquid wrench is fine. Yeah without being their and looking at it and giving it a whack myself it is hard to say what is going on. Sounds like if you hit it hard enough to break a 3/32" pin punch that that pin is stuck. You did you try removing it from both ends (top down and bottom up?). Anyways it could be rusted in, the hole could be out of spec or have a burr, the pin could be just plain mangled in there.

Maybe someone else has a suggestion. I know someone mentioned posting pictures but there really is not much to see. If you can't get it out that way then the only other ways that I can come up with is to drill out the pin or try to cut it out using a cutting wheel on a dremel both can be risky if you don't know what you are doing.
 
Yeah I took some pictures but it shows nothing it just seems plain stuck I am going to try again as I keep seeming to get false hope of feeling it move but as i look at it it does not appear to move at all. So now i will let the oil sit for an hour and try again if that does not work I will take to a local gunsmith to get his advice.
 
Worst case is you take a dremel tool and start grinding the top of the clip guide. Stop short of the receiver, leaving just a tiny bit of the pin/guide. You should be able to knock that much small piece out. Guides are cheap, I bough two off evil bay for five bucks each.
The normal procedure is to drive the guide pin out of the receiver from the bottom. You only have to drive the pin about half way to clear the receiver, then tap the guide out with the pin still in it.
 
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