Mouse Guns, what's the attraction?

[tinygnat219]

After another post on minimum SD calibers, I thought I'd branch out a bit and see what the real reason for these being selected for SD was.

So,

What's the deal with the Mouse Guns? Yeah, I know there's a saying that a .25 in the hand beats a .45 in the safe. Blah blah, for the sake of argument, let's put that aside and get to the meat of the issue:Question is, why isn't the Mouse Gun in the safe and the .45 on your person?

Technology has allowed pistols chambered in "service" calibers to be the same size, or smaller than a lot of the mouse guns out there right now. Why carry a .32ACP pistol, when a 9MM, or .40 S&W is available for purchase?

Why ignore and pass up on a better tool for the job at hand for something that is smaller and less likely to stop an attack?

Asbestos Underpants are on. Flame away.

 

[wally]

I carry the largest piece I can be 100% sure its concealed. Usually its the .40S&W Kahr PM40, or the .357Mag S&W SC360 Scandium J-frame, but sometimes its the "big" .45ACP Kimber Ultra Carry or the "tiny" .380ACP Kel-Tec P3AT. Haven't carried a .25 since the Kel-Tec P32 came out which I replaced with the P3AT when it came out.

--wally.

 

[McCall911]

I don't know!

It seems 100-percent-pure sensible to me to have one caliber, period, for a CCW as well as a home defense weapon, be it 9mm, .40 S&W, 10mm, or .45 ACP.

But I can't explain my fascination for such things as the .32 ACP/7.65 Browning. As far as penetration tests go, the .32 ACP doesn't even compare with a good .22 Rimfire. But still I'm attracted by it! :banghead:

Ironically, an LEO friend of mine held a similar fascination for the lowly .25 ACP. He had nothing but praise for it, pointing out its ability to penetrate. His carry weapon? A S&W Model 58 in .41 Magnum!

 

[Zero_DgZ]

Because with the exception of a few very expensie pistols there actually aren't any in "real calibers" that are as small as the mouse guns. Even the Kel Tec PF9 (say) is considerably larger than a P3 or P32.

 

[NORTEXED]

I carry a KT P32 because it's convienient no matter what the attire. I own .45's and 9mm's also, but find myself carying the 32 because it just drops in a pocket. I have no overinflated expectations for the .32 and consider it a "contact breaker" much like the shotguns carried on patrol in the army. I also have a Commander swiss army knife that I realize is not as good as a full tool box, (I did change a rotor and distributor cap with it in an emergency one time, and while not fun, it was doable), but it fits in the glove compartment of the car. It's all about what level of inconvienience you're willing to put up with for what level of protection. Kinda like carying 2 spares when out 4-wheeling, but you don't do it commuting to work. No flames

 

[Ron James]

At one time my job frowned on carrying weapons plus most of the homes I visited would have gone carzy if the people had known I was carrying. At the same time I was all over the city and in some places that I didn't feel conforable in. So, a 1908 Colt 25 in an ankle holster with my sock pulled up over it worked out just fine. It was a concealed weapon.

 

[GEM]

1. Concealment - it is a practical matter

BTW - do you consider the ever popular J frames as mouse guns? Lots of folks carry those. Not a 45 but nothing to sneeze at.

2. Cost - a quality mouse gun is cheaper than most others. The Kel-tec or Beretta guns can be had for about $200. NAA minis for $150.

3. Recoil is lesser for the most part.

4. Use as a small BUG

5. Zombies are scared of mice but not 45s?

 

[Manedwolf]

To put it quite simply, they're small.

Some of us are slender and like wearing fitted clothes, even the smallest "full-sized caliber" handgun would stick out as a massive bulge, obvious to a casual observer. They're also a lot heavier and drag down clothing.

But something as small as a P3AT, jetfire or Rohrbach (sp?) could be concealed in a smartcarry and not even ruin the line of fitted pants, or in the pocket of a jacket without dragging it down with weight.

 

[Lonestar.45]

double post

 

[Lonestar.45]

Question is, why isn't the Mouse Gun in the safe and the .45 on your person?

1. Size
2. Weight
3. Concealability

 

[ugaarguy]

Technology has allowed pistols chambered in "service" calibers to be the same size, or smaller than a lot of the mouse guns out there right now. Why carry a .32ACP pistol, when a 9MM, or .40 S&W is available for purchase?

Because even a Rorbaugh R9 or Kahr PM9 is not as small as a P3AT. When I can carry a service pistol or revolver I will. When I'm in a t-shirt & gym shorts I'll take the P3AT in a a neck holster over nothing. Take a look at Bobo's pocket auto comparison chart stickied in the auto loaders sub forum and notice the widths & weights of the pistols listed there. It's eye opening.

 

[miko]

I conducted an experiment this year – I went to my friends’ New Year party with a Blue-Gun replica of my HK P2000 in an underarm holster worn under my dress shirt. I am about 5’6” at 130 pounds and there were over 30 people in an apartment, good lights and relatively little drinking – and nobody noticed. I do use flat floor-plate mags, though, and modified the BG replica accordingly.
My wife noticed because she felt the strap through my shirt (that I put across my chest to steady the holster better) and one guy giving me an uninvited pat/hug could have touched it if I did not make sure to slip away.

I would have to open one button to get the weapon out. Still, having 11 rds (13 but NY state limits me to 10-rd mags) of .40 or 6 rounds of .357 (same rig works well with my 3” model 66) is quite an awesome firepower.

miko

 

[MCgunner]

Asbestos Underpants are on. Flame away.

Oh, I'm going to agree. The modern subcompact 9s are so small and light, yet effective and, wonder of wonders, quite accurate, that I almost never have to carry a .380 anymore. I dress around the gun, not vice versa. I just don't feel real comfy with the penetration of the .380 and I cannot get warm to a .32, never bought one, don't want one.

I don't carry IWB much, but .38 Special +P 158 grain or 9mm 115 grain +P jhp work for me in a pocket. I'll occasionally carry IWB, but hardly ever feel the need, yet I'm carrying a service caliber gun with service caliber accuracy.

One thing I don't get is the "it's a belly gun, not a bullseye gun" mentality. If you can't group 5 feet off a rest at 25 yards, I don't consider it adequate. If it has to be stuffed in the BGs ear, for all intents it's a contact weapon. I wanna be able to shoot at least 4" groups off a rest at 25 yards with ANY gun I'm going to rely on for self defense. Lots of these little .32s and .380s won't do that. My little KT P11 will and my snubby .38 will. In fact, in the unlikely even I ever had to shoot at extended ranges, like 50 yards, the snubby or the KT would be up to the task. I can't say that about my .380. I'd be lucky to get a fight stopping shot center mass at 25 yards.

I know all about gun fight statistics, but Murphy rules. WHAT IF, you had to make a shot at 25 yards. It probably won't happen, but it COULD happen. Now, I mean, I'm not into carrying my 33 ounce guns IWB, but there are good alternatives to mouse guns in 9mm, .38 special, and even .40S&W. It just takes pants with a little bigger pockets.

 

[unspellable]

why?

Weight, size, and concealability, as simple as that. Yes, I carry bigger when I can, but sometimes you just can't. I have discarded the 25 since the Kel Tec 32 came out and now regard the 32 ACP as the absolute minimum.

Some areas are different than others. Around here I would NOT want to be caught printing or flashing.

 

[browningguy]

I occasionally have to dress up in a Tux, and did have a special cumberbund made this year, but the little Browning or Beretta .25 is still a lot more concealable than the the BHP in .40. And normally when I'm carrying the small gun it's because I'm in a fairly secure area. As soon as the valet brings my car around the .40 is back in place.

And I'm not actually convinced the full caliber pocket pistols are better for the average person. How well do most owners shoot them? How often do they shoot them? I've tried a KelTec 9mm and it's quite a handfull for me, I can get 8 rounds out of my Beretta at 3-5 yards in a heartbeat or two and all be on target. And I practice a lot with it because it doesn't beat up my old arthritic hands.

If you shoot it well, have at a pocket .45, why stop with a 9. But let others make their own decision and don't demean their selection.

 

[Beatnik]

Because I like the idea of reduced "stopping power".
IMO all the talk about stopping power basically equates to one shot kills.
Despite being a gun nut, I don't get aroused by the idea of killing another human being in order to protect my stuff.

 

[RyanM]

One is none and two is one. Not many people are willing to lug around two full sized pistols all day. A primary and a backup makes more sense.

 

[foob]

I don't have much experience or knowledge, so I'm just giving an opinion.

Technology has allowed pistols chambered in "service" calibers to be the same size, or smaller than a lot of the mouse guns out there right now. Why carry a .32ACP pistol, when a 9MM, or .40 S&W is available for purchase?

Because technology hasn't allowed any larger caliber pistol to be the same size as a smaller caliber pistol. It's the law of physics, you can't overcome it, you can only come close.

If you can design a .45 pistol that is the same size as the smallest .380 pistol, then someone else can design a .380 pistol smaller than the .45 pistol you designed using your design/ingenuity.

It's a tradeoff. Concealability and weight versus probability of surviving a situation that allows for deadly force. Everybody calculates their risks differently, and assign varying importance to different factors.

Of course if you can reduce a larger caliber pistol to small enough size, there's no point making a smaller caliber pistol smaller since nobody can get a grip on it anyway, or it's too light. But we haven't come to that point yet.

I dress around the gun, not vice versa.

That's one way of thinking. Not always feasible for others, depending on numerous factors.

As an example, I can't go out and buy the largest capacity double stack DA/SA or DAO semi-auto, because my fingers are really short. I can only effectively manipulate single stack single actions. So I like my 1911 and P7M8. Also I'm short, so any long barrel firearms will slow my drawing significantly.

If you can't group 5 feet off a rest at 25 yards, I don't consider it adequate. If it has to be stuffed in the BGs ear, for all intents it's a contact weapon. I wanna be able to shoot at least 4" groups off a rest at 25 yards with ANY gun I'm going to rely on for self defense. Lots of these little .32s and .380

I don't have much experience with the mouse guns, but I would find it unlikely that one can't make a reasonable grouping at 25 yards with them at rest. Maybe seecamp since it has no sights. Anyway there's quite a bit of space inbetween grouping at 25 yards and contact shooting.

 

[Plink]

I carry as large and effective of gun as I can conceal and shoot well with. My body shape doesn't allow for full sized guns, or I'd carry one. I don't need a microscopic gun though, and in fact I don't shoot that well with them anyway. Personally, I won't carry anything under 9mm, simply because I don't need too. Guns in more substantial calibers have gotten quite small. I usually carry a small .45 ACP (Bersa Mini-Firestorm) but in the hottest parts of summer, I switch to a Kel-Tec P-11 because I have a hard time concealing the Bersa with light clothes.

 

[Surefire]

They're cute!

Seriously, that is the only reason I bought my NAA Mini. I certainly wouldn't want it for self defense, unless no other gun was available. At best, its a 5 shot automatic ice pick.

For serious self defense, my minimum requirement is 380

 

[Geronimo45]

Looks, size, cost. Besides, if it's a mousegun, it ought to be in a mousy caliber - while full-power calibers ought to be in full-sized guns - in theory, anyways.

 

[Juna]

One thing I don't get is the "it's a belly gun, not a bullseye gun" mentality. If you can't group 5 feet off a rest at 25 yards, I don't consider it adequate. If it has to be stuffed in the BGs ear, for all intents it's a contact weapon. I wanna be able to shoot at least 4" groups off a rest at 25 yards with ANY gun I'm going to rely on for self defense.

My thoughts exactly. However, I think this argues against getting a larger caliber gun in a super small package b/c it's going to not be fun shooting at the range b/c of recoil. That will make you practice with it less, and that will make you less proficient with it--not to mention making follow-up shots harder due to more recoil. That's why I'd opt for the Kel-Tec P32 over the P3AT b/c the ballistic differences are minimal compared to the shootability of the two similarly sized guns.

Plus, if you're using a tiny cannon as a "contact weapon" and you're close enough to touch it to them, a knife would do a much better job and more damage.

Besides, if it's a mousegun, it ought to be in a mousy caliber - while full-power calibers ought to be in full-sized guns - in theory, anyways.

True for many reasons. Full sized pistols handle larger rounds better than mouse guns. Mouse guns don't handle large rounds very well, IMO. Mouse guns are for concealability, price, and ease of carrying/light weight/slim profile.

 

[Confederate]

Why are mouse guns so popular? 1) They're easily concealable; 2) many of them will be carried when a person wouldn't ordinarily carry a larger gun; 3) criminals don't want to be shot with them; and perhaps the best reason, 4)they've worked in many, many cases to deter crime or prevent bad guys from doing what bad guys do.

Having read many hundreds of successful defense uses of .25ACP/.22LR guns like the Beretta or the Raven or the Jennings, etc, etc, I'm convinced they have a legitimate place in self defense. (And very little in crime, BTW.)

That said, there are many junk guns that don't work. Never saw a Sterling that worked, but these were useless from a functioning standpoint. I have a Jennings J-22 that has NEVER jammed in the first three clipfulls of ammo. After that, it dirties enough to impair functioning, but while clean it's wonderfully reliable. The Ravens also have been remarkably reliable.

*

 

[los]

FBI documented SD encounters involving the use of a Firearm occur within 20 feet of the Subject and the Suspect and usually end withing a few seconds after the first shot is discharged. It happens quickly and ends quickly. A high percentage of these encounters don't even involve a reload.

It's not anything like TV or Big Screen choreographed scenes. Unless you're an LEO, chances are that you're never going to have to brandish your weapon. Most armed civilians are intuitive enough to avoid a potentially deadly encounter. But some encounters can't be avoided.

I front pocket carry my LWS380. I can walk around with my hand casually resting in my pocket, while I have my Seecamp's grip firmly grasped and ready for immediate use. Can you do the same with your Handgun if it's holstered in a IWB or OWB rig? My CCW only weighs 14oz fully loaded with 7 rounds of 80gr DPX. Comfort at it's best.

It's nice to own a carry a Gun that bestows Range Gun type accuracy. Taking time to aim and punching holes at 75 feet is a lot of fun. But in a real world, self defense scenario involving the use and discharging of your CCW,... you won't even have the time to aim at the Perp with your iron sights.

Have you practiced discharging your CCW weapon at a Target placed at or within 20 feet? Have you practiced discharging your CCW at the Target without using the iron sights? YOU SHOULD MAKE IT PART OF YOUR RANGE SESSION!

Mouse Gun or not, a .380 projectile traveling 1100 fps entering the upper torso cavity will in all reasonable medical probability create an incapacitating injury with potential for catastrophic results. Shot placement is paramount.

Bottom Line,...It's all about concealability, comfort, accessibility and having extreme confidence in yourself, and your CCW of choice.

I'm good-to-go!

 

[420Stainless]

I like to dress light and I also feel more comfortable carrying with a safety on. The pocketable handguns I've come across with higher energy than .380ACP don't contain a safety. I like the concept of the P11, PM9, G36, 642, ...etc, but I personally feel better with the safety on when drawing from a pocket. On the road there is always a .45 (ACP or Colt) within reach and stored in a lock box when parked. At home there is a dog, shotgun, and again a .45. But on foot I like pocket carry and feel more secure with a safety on in that mode. PPK/S is the ticket for me.