Mugging WWYD

[halfgone]

K, here it goes:

3 people (2M 1F) walking along the street (they live in the downtown area of a major US city) at night, say around 11pm. The F is grabbed by a guy and dragged into the alley, he has a knife to her throat. as the 2M's are "encouraged" to also enter the alley two BG's come out and confront the GG's. Only you are armed, although the other male has martial hand-to-hand and knife training (and is carrying a knife). BG's are threatening, but it seems to be a "simple" mugging. Do you:

1) go along and just hand over whatever cash and credit cards you have, hoping BG lets girl go? - fearing that if you pull your firearm BG with knife could get slice n' dice happy

2) Pull firearm and get them to retreat (hopefully by pulling it they get the picture and back off)

3) go along unless there is a risk of them discovering your firearm and then you pull, obviously if the firearm is going to come into play, you want it to be in your hands and not theirs

4) something else? (fill in blank)

Quite frequently I am traveling with two other people and I have often wondered what to do when someone else is "under the knife." I know what I would do if it were just my life on the line, but someone else and that makes things hairy.

 

[Waywardmonk]

That's a tricky one but since so many " simple " muggings go down hill fast I say you pull your gun and your friend pulls his knife and you convince them you have the superior position with a " let her go and run away or stay and die ". I think as long as they know you aren't trying for some wacky citizen's arrest or payback for the mugging itself they would bolt, just be prepared to follow through if they do get stupid.

 

[birddog]

Pull gun, and let them know that -- whatever they intended to do to your female friend --they will pay with their lives.

That would be no time to screw around. I think the presence of a gun would defuse the situation rather quickly. If not? You have a gun.

 

[Sheldon J]

throw your valuables

off to the side of the BG, while he's distrected then you act.

 

[halfgone]

Sheldon

Good thinking. Kind of a divide and conquer mentality, except this would be their attention.

So far the mentality has been to show the BG's that they are not the only ones willing to use force.

Would you guys aim at the BG's in front of you and use them as collateral against the BG with the Girl? What should your focus be?

 

[Sean85746]

Number one, when walking with your female friend...make sure she is NOT on the alley side of you and your friend. It will be a lot harder to get the advantage with her.

Plan ahead. Talk with your friends, and play the "what if" game. Having your female friend prepared to drop like a sack of potatoes as soon as she is grabbed will often catch an attacker off guard, giving you and your martial-artist friend to act.

As soon as your female friend was out of your line of fire...the guy with the knife would catch a double tap. He is still armed, and we all know the Tueller Drill (reasonably fit person with a knife or impact weapon CAN cut/bludgeon/hit/whatever from 15-21 feet in or around 1.5 seconds).

Possibly add an impact weapon to your carry arsenal.

Play it smart and safe, and take reasonable precautions....keep your eyes moving. Walk tall, and confident, not like a victim. Look like a predator and not like prey. You know this stuff...just do it.

I make sure, when with my wife and daughter, the I walk closest to shadows, or corners. I am 6'4" and 400lbs...and definatley don't carry myself like a victim. A good glare, and situational awareness will usually make the rest of your precautions moot.

And...if all else fails, I have a .45 on my belt, and a .357BUG in my pocket.



MERRY CHRISTMAS!

 

[Grey54956]

Neutralize the 2 "new" BGs first. They may not appear armed, but as they are already threatening and their accomplice is armed and is an imminent threat to the woman, you don't want to take chances and you cannot be certain of their intentions. If you get the drop on them, draw your weapon immediately and put two rounds into each.

The remaining BG may let go of the woman and run. If he has just seen his buddies get smoked, he may not be inclined to join them. If he drops the woman unharmed and turns to run, let him go, get to a safer location and contact the police. If he hurts her in any way, put two more into him at the first opportunity, then look to her injuries. It's a roll of the dice at this point, but really the dice were thrown when he grabbed her in the first place. Even if he does use the knife, humans are fairly resilient, and the tissues and vessels of the neck are fairly tough. While there is no guarantee, there is a good chance that she will be OK. The BG, however, should not be given the same chance.

 

[psyopspec]

I'm somewhat with Grey, draw and shoot. But until I knew that the accompli were armed, I'd focus on popping the knife-wielder at the first opportunity. Head shot hopefully makes him go limp, or going for COM distracts him from cutting her. If he's like a lot of BG's and gets his tactics from TV and movies, no way he'll start slashing once the bullets are enroute.

Per the usual, no way to know without having BTDT, and even then all choices and outcomes are METTTC-dependent.

 

[Grey54956]

I disagree psyopspec. The knife-wielding BG has his hands full and is distracted with the woman. This prevents him from immediately lunging at you.

You pop the 2 accomplices first. If this results in the knife BG turning to flee, great. If he throws the girl aside to lunge, she's out of the way, and you have your firearm at the ready. If he feels cornered, and hostage-standoff occurs, then you have to take the shot. In any event, you don't really have to worry about the other two BGs.

Like a game of chess. But with bullets.

 

[Cousin Mike]

I'll chime in with the chorus here. In that situation, I would more than likely draw immediately and shoot one of the accomplices right off the bat. If the second didn't turn and run immediately (which is probably more likely than him staying around waiting for his turn to get shot), I would also neutralize him. By this time, I would fully expect the knife-weilding guy to turn and run, having seen his 2 buddies just get smoked, but you never know. If at this point, he is still a threat (still has the female under his control physically), negotiations would begin, assuming that the female is in front of him, and a COM shot is out of the question. I would not go for a headshot unless I was only a few feet away, and was certain I could land such a shot (i.e. laser sights). I would have to assume that this last guy, having seen his 2 friends killed, would take any chance he was given to escape the situation since they no longer have the upper hand as a group. I would let him know that any action taken against my friend will cost him his life, let him leave (if he chooses) and call the authorities. If he refused to back off, I would try to position myself and my martial artist friend in such a way that a headshot would be possible (point blank range). These guys, being common criminals and not terrorists, would not be willing to die for a few dollars. I'd exploit that as best as I could to diffuse the situation.

 

[armedandsafe]

Went through that, once, in Vegas. I generally walk on the alley-crossing side, but the young lady had come up from behind and fallen in step with me, on that side. She was chit-chatting along for a few steps when she got grabbed from the shadows. Only one bad guy to be seen and I did not know the lady from Eve.

I stepped to the curb, pulled and told the bad guy to drop her and leave. They both said "Ah, S$$T!" and ran. Something about it leads me to believe it was a setup.

Pops

 

[halfgone]

That's interesting. So then the basic theory seems to be that one should pull asap, with the hopes that it will either A) neutralize the threat or B) bring the event to a climax on more even grounding than how it began.

Thanks guys. that gives me something to think about. My concern had been about how a firearm may make an already bad situation worse by causing the BG's to become desperate... but I guess that is thinking with the foolish presupposition that once they get the money they'd leave, and we all know that that doesn't always happen.

 

[sacp81170a]

So then the basic theory seems to be that one should pull asap, with the hopes that it will either A) neutralize the threat or B) bring the event to a climax on more even grounding than how it began.

I agree with the consensus opinion, draw immediately. That puts you into *their* OODA loop, namely, they're now having to react and adjust their plans to an unanticipated development. The MA buddy with a knife is just icing on the cake. I wouldn't fire immediately, though. I'd give them a second or two to recognize the fact that the situation had just changed drastically in your favor. I would verbalize in a *very* loud and firm voice, "DROP THE KNIFE OR I WILL SHOOT YOU!" ("scumbag" is optional).

If it works and they run(99% chance, I'd say), you just got out of a bad situation without pulling the trigger, always a good thing. If they are a little bit more suicidal than you thought, be ready to follow up your words immediately with action, don't wait for them. They initiated the lethal force encounter, so your shooting them is entirely justified.

The psychology at work here is this: BG's are looking for victims that they can *safely* take advantage of. Take away their safety factor and most times they will drop the attack and seek easier prey, but be prepared for them to act in way you don't expect.

To follow up, if you don't have to shoot and you're carrying legally, call 911 on your cell phone (you are carrying a cell phone, aren't you?) and give their description and direction of travel. You may save someone else from the same situation. If you aren't carrying legally (no judgements here, just survival) get the h311 out of Dodge ASAP.

Sheep dogs *should* show their fangs when the wolf is at the door. That's what they're for.

 

[sam59]

Mugging

Good thoughts and ideas all around. Especially the "what if" scenarios. I think role playing in your mind is the best training you can give yourself. You have everything you need to practice in your gray matter, a location, a gun, a bad guy and the most important aspect, hindsight to correct and adjust your responses accordingly.

One thing I had not heard mentioned is, god forbid, the bad guy cuts the females throat to her spine and you have to watch this unfold. Can you then get off rounds accuratly and kill the bastard while your friend, girl friend or wife is laying on the ground choking on her own blood! Not to be morbid, actually I do want to be morbid because hopefully it makes people think of all the possibilities, but I dont think a lot of people play the worst case scenario role play in their minds (If they role play at all).

And thats all he wrote!

 

[Walt Rauch]

Everybody gets served.

 

[Grey54956]

It is dangerous to take the time to issue a verbal warning. This is not only a waste of time, but gives them a warning of the situation that is unfolding. Do not waste precious seconds with a warning.

When you draw your weapon, they will not be expecting it. They will not yet have full compreshension of the situation when you begin firing. The action will be fast and loud, which will add to the confusion. The goal is total and complete shock on their part. If you can drop the accomplices, the knife wielder's flight instinct may kick in with out his conscious decision.

As soon as the attack is initiated, the cards are all out on the table. How you play them is up to you.

As I said before, though, the woman's chances aren't great, but they aren't too bad either. I read an interesting book not long ago about dueling back in the day. Stab and slash wounds to the neck weren't uncommon, but the mortality rate was surprisingly low. That is because you windpipe is composed of extremely tough material, and you have a lot of muscle and tendons to guard everything else.

 

[sacp81170a]

It is dangerous to take the time to issue a verbal warning. This is not only a waste of time, but gives them a warning of the situation that is unfolding. Do not waste precious seconds with a warning.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Your approach is valid, but guarantees shots fired. I prefer to give the BG's one last chance to let their survival instinct kick in, one last chance not to have to shoot. That said, if I read the situation as being already in the dumper, you're right, no verbal warning, maximum shock and violence. We weren't given the information to make that determination in the scenario given. That's what makes this forum so interesting.

 

[grizz5675]

I would shoot the two bad guys as fast as i could and get to where the female is and bargain with the other bad guy "if you dont cut her i'll let you go but if you do cut her your a dead muther######"!

 

[psyopspec]

The reason I'd focus on the knife man first is that the other two are, in the given scenario, unarmed and not an imminent threat (yet?). The female is the one in the most danger, the man threatening her is the most pressing and immediate threat. If my training kicks in right, I draw and have a shot on him in less than a couple seconds, at which point I focus on the other two. If training doesn't kick in (Murphy being ever-present), adjust accordingly.

Until they advance on me or another in my party, the two other BG's are criminals but not imminent threats of bodily harm.

 

[V4Vendetta]

3. Unless I saw that they were going to rape the female. Then I'd kill them all.

 

[Azrael256]

Until they advance on me or another in my party, the two other BG's are criminals but not imminent threats of bodily harm.

I think you're making a mistake by trying to establish some kind of ROE for the situation. Once it hits the fan, all three BGs are imminent threats. By entering the situation in a confrontational manner, they have engaged in acts of violence. Their degree of participation in the actual assault is irrelevant as they have taken the prepatory step (the most difficult one) to become physically violent.

My vote is for the easiest shot first, which would be whichever of the two physically disengaged BGs is the easiest to hit, and/or is the closest, meanest looking, etc. Too bad for him, but not mugging people tends to reduce your chances of getting shot. He IS my warning shot, as I have now overcome any of the psychological difficulties preventing me from being violent in response, and have clearly demonstrated my ability and intent to use deadly force against their assault.

My guess (unqualified) is that the other two would tend to tuck tail and run at that point. If they don't, I need to reduce the variables in the equation further to allow better concentration on the BG with the knife. So, physically disengaged BG #2 bites it next. Again, too bad, so sad, don't mug people.

At that point, stopping knife wielding maniac becomes my sole purpose in life. If I can score a perfect shot between his eyes with a minimal chance of hitting the F, then great. I might also be able to gain superior position on him using my buddies. If I cannot put force on him to stop the assault immediately, negotiation of some sort might be in order. I don't know whether or not it's going to be effective, as there is no way of knowing what BG's mental condition is, nor can I determine what effects drugs or alcohol may be having on the situation. At this point, I'll defer to anybody who has experience or training in dealing with this sort of thing.

That Said(tm), Sean85746's sack o' potatoes idea is pretty good. If F hits the ground while armed BG is still standing, he is now the most immediate threat, and is a relatively easy (and 100% justifiable) shot. He bites it first, no warning, no telegraphing, just 3 holes. The other two BGs either retreat in haste, freeze, and are held for police, or meet their maker depending on their next move.

 

[Tokugawa]

The gun in your hand is enough warning. verbal warnings when you are under attack just waste time. Shoot the nearest one first. Shoot the next closest second . close with knife wielder and shoot him last. If he has cut your friend shoot him a lot.

 

[Danus ex]

There's a time gap here that bothers me. The moment she's grabbed you should (and probably would) both act. Don't let her get dragged into an alley. You may be close enough to strike or pistol whip him before he even gets to the alley with her.

The instant that knife is out, you're playing for keeps--with more than one life in this scenario. You have to act in whatever ways preserve your three lives. Based on this, I think the best way (as I sit here from my ergo chair) would be to up the ante a whole ton--draw, approach, and prepare to shoot from contact distance. Get it right in his face, remember, you can walk forward much faster than they can walk backwards. If he doesn't let go (and isn't crapping his pants at the show of force) pull the trigger on him and get ready for more.

But that's just one of 329784632874632 possible things. Your gun might get hung up on your clothes, and you'd lose time. You might drop it as you pull. He might just be a punk who runs the instant you both turn around. His knife might be plastic. X might be Y. Scenarios are tough because there's so many of them, and tied to them are the endless mitigating factors for each instant within the particular scenario. Scenarios are indeed good mental exercise, but please remember that the first casualty of battle is usually your plan.

Scenarios are a very concrete thing, something we can picture and focus on. This is where my mixed martial arts friends go wrong. I can usually see that they're operating with a specific focus (say, a certain takedown), and knowing that, I can open the target they want and lure them in (and deliver a nasty surprise) or simply stop them at every turn. Even when they change focus, they're still focused on something and ignoring much of the remaining context. The last time I trained with someone from BJJ on the ground, I was literally giggling as he tried to apply his various techniques. You're focusing on the concretes, aren't you! In this situation, don't think about me defeating his stuff, think about what my giggling did to his state of mind--it frustrated him, made him sloppy. Think about attitude, think about feeling.

Most importantly, think about awareness. You can have all the tools, all the training, and have thought about every scenario and still be useless if you can't detect and interpret what's happening. Start paying attention to smaller things: the way you pull a trigger, objects around you that are weapons, the weight of your clothes, the richness of a color, the beauty of your wife's smile. Start taking in more. If you know what's happening, chances are extremely high that you can stop or avoid it before it happens all over you.

Here's a brain-buster. I've never been mugged, does that give me zero or total credibility?