So lets say you DO bring a knife to a gun fight. . .

[Soybomb]

Interesting, we have almost 2 full pages of posts. I was hoping we might get some useful information of what a person with a 3-4" pocketknife might want to strike for if it was all they had as a last ditch effort. Instead it seems like alot of obvious statements like that its a bad situation to be in. No kidding.

For as much as some of you guys talk about the Tueller drill, it seems like a guy with a knife and a slightly distracted gunman shouldn't be as hopeless as you imply. Perhaps face to face with aimed gun, but how about the other times? Whats with all the "why bother knives won't give instant stops" talk? Half the threads here seem to be about how handguns might fail to stop for as much as 20-30 seconds even with good shot placement.

I don't even know who the big names are in that type of thing. Any books or tapes or even names to look up? I wouldn't mind having some basic idea of what to do with my pocket knife if it was all I had and I absolutely knew I no choice but to use it. Slash? Stab? What part of the body? Stab, punch, run?

Its only a knife but it might be the best thing available and I can't imagine there aren't more and less effective ways to use it.

 

[1911 guy]

I'd rather have something else, but...

Let's say things are very ugly and I'm in the position described by the O.P. Losing isn't guaranteed, but neither is winning. Remember all those threads about how dangerous a man with a knife is to you when he gets in close? Now you're the man with the knife and you have to have already decided to be dangerous.

Think retention drills in reverse. You'd pull your handgun in close if he grabbed it, so you grab it and pull it out from his body to gain leverage. Disabling his gun arm is paramount, so a deep coring cut is required to the pocket of the shoulder, right where you'd put a rifle butt. You're going to take a beating, but his lifting the off arm will allow the same coring cut to the underarm. It's all about blood loss, knife fights are seldom won by deep penetration and organ damage. Keeping control of the handgun and sweeping cuts that will bleed -a lot- are the order of the day. There are no Jedi Secrets, just practical training and the will to do anything to survive.

Knife choice plays into this, as well. A curved handle is easier to hang on to and a fixed blade is always fater to deploy than a folder. Here's what I carry on my off side.
https://www.kabar.com/product_detai...de=category&categoryId=1,7,9&categoryName=Law Enforcement

 

[Outlaw Man]

Personally, I like my odds better skipping the knife and going after him/the gun with both hands. If I used a knife it would probably be directed toward teh neck and head (under jaw, eyes), at least if I didn't have much of a drop on him. Sneaking up from behind would offer several options, but it would most likely depend on environment.

The talk of taking so long to kill someone with a knife is the flip side of what my CHL instructor told us. He said if someone has a knife draw on you and it's a situation where he wants your family or something (if it's just your wallet let him have it) and you have to bring your gun into play do it. You'll most likely get stabbed but remember it won't kill you. It'll hurt - a lot - but you're about to inflict more pain on him.

In both situations, it's really not a self-preservation decision. He wants to have his way with your wife/gf? He wants to kidnap your child? You do everything in your power - including dying if necessary - to buy them time to escape. That is the ONLY thing that matters. Most other situations, there's no need to fight.

 

[for_hire]

Lets say the BG had the gun pointed at my head within 0-5 ft...I would parry the gun with my left hand as i changed levels and stabed violently at his groin area. After the blade had entered that area I would remove it with a violent jerk trying to rip toward arteries. Once the blade was out I would either go toward the arm to sever muscle and tissue or go for the arm pit itself or go for a gut shot underneath the sternem. After my second strike I would then go for a more violent shot to the throat/ neck area. Then if the S.O.B didn't go down I would either do one of two things...Shoot or Run!...

 

[fireflyfather]

If you REALLY want to know the best targets to go after with a ***3-4 inch*** knife, you are pretty darn limited. Again, knife fights are messy things, and you have to be in a pretty bizarre situation to use a knife against a gun. Having said that, viable targets for that sort of knife:
===========================================================

Eyes (if he can't see you, it's harder to shoot you if he breaks free from contact range).

Carotid/Jugular (iffy, unless you have a good angle...hard to penetrate deep enough with a slashing cut, easy to miss with a stab)

Throat (stabbing, maybe with a good hit, slashing worthless with that short a knife...hard to fight without air)

Possibly femoral (inside thigh)...not sure if it will penetrate enough to reach that with a short knife (also, take into account if they are wearing thick jeans. That may prevent much damage from a glancing blow/slash).

I know this last one may sound unconventional and impractical. It may be: Thumb on the gun hand. If you can maintain control of the gun hand (iffy), then you could conceivably jam a short knife in between the weapon on the thumb. Kind of hard to hold onto a weapon with just four fingers. Consider it the ultimate limp-wristing of a pistol. Probably about as hard as cutting a chicken leg off the thigh. The hard part is not getting shot while doing it, and getting the knife deep enough down the crease between the weapon and the thumb to make the cut. And god help you when you go to court.

Seriously, you are probably better taking the guy on with your bare hands and just clocking him over the head, than trying to use a small knife to save someone's life. A good elbow to the base of the skull or temple would be just as easy to perform from behind, have less chance of killing the perp, and more likely to take him down/stun him long enough for you to disarm him, or take needed further action.

 

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Knife vs gun is pretty awful - the chief advantage of a knife is surprise, and if the other guy has a gun out, that's mostly gone. At that point, something in your hand is a liability. Best to get two hands on the gun and keep it pointed away from you. One hand is useless - he'll just back up.

Common things you can do: grab the slide - if you're successful, it won't reload. It will fire. Hit the mag release and rack the slide - now he has a sap. Pop the slide off - only works on some guns, but nice if you can do it.

Good luck, because you're gonna need it.

 

[anotherKevin]

Shooting gallery show

Michael Banes shooting gallery show adressed this topic this very week, in a fascinating show. The level of training required is astonishing, but not surprising.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Well, our Study Group has looked at this topic a number of times, and each time we discuss it we find certain themes repeat themselves.

Anytime a knife is present, often someone gets cut.
The vast majority of victims that receive handgun wounds will survive their injuries.
The biggest advantage a handgun gives us is distance. As distance becomes proximity, the advantages handguns have as standoff weapons decreases, and contact weapons increase.


If I must fight in a gunfight only armed with a knife, then that's the battle . . . even if I have to fight armed with nothing but what I was born with, then that's what I must do. If I determine I have to fight to defend my life or someone I love, the tool in my hand only influences the way I carry out that fight, not the decision itself. After all, how much worse is it going to get? If I get shot, I get shot. I'll fight until either its over or I cannot fight anymore, regardless, and hope that current medicine saves me. There aren't any guarantees than even if I have a shotgun, and perform every technique right and flawlessly, that I won't end up hurt, dead, or in prison after its done. That's just how life goes.

New member Alexfubar has what I thought was some good insight:

Alexfubar said: Keeping a bat or breaker bar in you car is great - it's not on your belt though , is it ? If you're going to be leaving the Big Ones in the car , maybe it oughta be a shotgun. A good knife is ready at hand all the time.

Get close , grab on , and commence cutting until the threat is over. Avoid getting shot. The details will sort themselves out on their own , provided you really mean it.

I like 1911 guy's thoughts, too:

1911 guy said: Remember all those threads about how dangerous a man with a knife is to you when he gets in close? Now you're the man with the knife and you have to have already decided to be dangerous.

Think retention drills in reverse.

I took Insights Training's Defensive Folding Knife class. In the class Insights teaches, the students are all given the opportunity to make cuts with their folding knife on a chunk of rump roast wrapped around a PVC pipe, slid inside a blue jeans pantsleg. It was enlightening. Certain techniques cut quite effectively and deeply, others not so . . .

Like hso mentioned, knife wounds are extremely nasty. OJ didn't nearly sever Nicole Simpson's head off with a gun.

Me, I carry a 4" fixed blade all the time, like such.

 

[SniperStraz]

I like your setup BullfrogKen. Very nice with the extra mag, blade, and light. But doesn't that knife handle dig into your side?

 

[BullfrogKen]

Nope. In fact, it angles out away from it. I wish I could show you in person. Maybe I'll get a better picture of that for ya that shows the angle.

 

[TCB in TN]

The old maxim "Charge a gun, run from a knife" comes to mind. If I was close enough, I'd attempt to grab and redirect the gun with my left hand while stabbing upward towards his groin with my knife hand. In other words, cut the bastige from butthole to appetite.

+1 Biker, the same advice my great uncle gave me when he was still alive, came from personal experience. He always said when it hits the fan most folks can't hit a bull in the but at point blank range, but the guy with a knife is STILL gonna cut somebody.

 

[Rattlesnake]

SOCNET

Here is a good description of what I am saying about the groin. Dan Webre, for those of you who don't know him, speaks from experience, both in and out of the prison system.


This sort of ties in to Phils article on small knives and a couple of other posts. It is beyond highly effective....
It is easy , and legally speaking it would me hard to prove anything but involantary manslaughter , if used against an aggresive enemy.
It also will bleed them out very, very quickly and requires minimum cuts. Also (as we should know) the problems inherent with most knife systems is on the street you dont wear safety goggles and the blood that would spray forcefully on you and possibly blind you ,as well as make you look really bad when the cops come. Do not apply here...
What I am talking about are simple cuts to 3 targets. With a small sharp blade , They will not see it coming will not be able to do much but drop to the floor and bleed out.
You only need to learn a few things. Go blade up and have the ability to turn your hand to the side and you have the skills needed.
The targets are the periniuem/testicles, and the femoral arteries on bothsides of the inner thighs.
If it is open, jab quickly to the testicular region and retract quickly , not to stab but to slice!!! (for those into numbers that can be your one) Two is as simple as upon retraction , twist the blade inwards and slice the femoral artery. Sweep across to the other leg,twist blade, slice the femoral and retract for your number 3.
Depending on how quickly you do this will determine if they are standing after one or wont hit the ground if your very fast till the 3rd cut.
They cant run , they will die if they do not get instant emegency treatment. Even then its touch and go.
This also works well if you have fallen just make 1 a cut to the achillles tendon , kneel over them and finish up.
Kershaw makes a lighting fast, small and very sharp blade that attaches right to your keychain , it opens with the press of the finger and is one of the sharpest blades I own. (Cost about 30 bucks)
For those that need help on target identification these are the locations. The 1st target the periniuem/and testicles are attacked at the same time . You should know where your balls are , the perinium is located right behind them .
The femoral arteries are located opposite of the sciatic nerve. Just drop your hands to your sides. Where your middle finger is thats the sciatic, on the inner portion of your leg , imagine a straight line going through your sciatic to the inside . Thats the femoral.
Added note- the sciatic nerve is NOT a good target to slice . The nerve is located under about 2 and a half inches of muscle.
To better enhance your new 1,2,3, die system use your eyes as a distraction by widening them to draw your enemies focal point into your eyes preventing them from seeing the low lying fury that is about two be unleashed. Also as always feel free two use your empty hand to throw in their face for distraction purpose or to better create an opening. If the area is blocked, and well protected just step on the targets foot. Your target will more then likely step back enough to open up the needed targets to eliminate the problem.
Train with a cup, and a red marker , or a no lie blade and some old white pants or just some cheap pajama style pants.
It is not hard to learn . With constant practice you will be suprised at what you can do , and how quickly you can do it. Try it out and let me know what you think. Field testing is so very important. It works well for me, yet that does not mean it will for you. The time to answer that is way before you need too in real life......
Happy Hunting................Dan

 

['87 Charvel]

right, have any of you that have been saying that knives dont do enough damage ever been stabbed by a knife? I personally have been in some rough places and situations. I saw a comment on how blood is like oil. that is 100% true. if you stab someone, the blood is on that knife and runs down into your figners. something with a hilt or grip is a MUST. thats why you see combat knives shaped the way they are. I personally carry a knife with a 7 1/4 inch blade. Knives are easy to conceal and are more legal to carry. They do stop people. However, you have to know where to hit someone. NEVER NEVER NEVER go for the stomach, legs, or arms. I have been stabbed, on more than one occasion. These places are like urban legends. only things that you hear about that arent true. its only going to hurt, but the person is going to get back up.

Stomach because it has alot of fat and padding. it most likely will just hurt them but not injure them seriously unless it is a large blade like the one i carry.


Legs/groin, give up on it. give up. because its a waste of your time. unless you just plan on them not being able to chase after you in a run, forget about the legs.

Arms. unless your Jet li, forget about it. Most people wouldnt be able to disable someone's arm or be fast enough to get where they wanted. and people have 2 arms. its not hard to get the gun to the other hand.

Go for the upper body and head. Feel your neck. feel right where your jugular is. you can feel your throat muscles and your spinal cord. there are alot of vital things there. Take your knife, Shove it into the side of where the spine is. hard to explain this. but take it, and put it into that empty feeling section. get the knife behind all those muscles and rip every bit of them out. That person wont get up from that and they will drop right away.

Eyes, if your attacker/victim cant see you, how is he to aim a gun at you? If you just have a smaller knife, then aim for these. and THEN the neck. If he is facing away, cut him ear to ear. then the back of the neck. hit those nerves. and watch with satisfaction as he dies by your hands.

Knives do damage, guns are overrated unless they are a very high caliber. Wars were fought with bladed weapons for thousands of years, and they were the most violent battles in history. they are a good weapon. dont underestimate the power of knives

 

[BullfrogKen]

'87 Charvel said: NEVER NEVER NEVER go for the stomach, legs, or arms.

Insights cirriculum teaches leg cuts. I'll leave it up to them to explain why to anyone interested by taking their class, and not deprive them of their place to teach that material.

'87 Charvel said: and watch with satisfaction as he dies by your hands.

OK . . . Ease off on the bloodlust here in S&T, or your membership here on THR will be a short one. Check S&T rules in the stickies for clarification.

 

[1911 guy]

I think someone's been reading a few too many super-spy novels or taking his Dungeons and Dragons a bit seriously. Anyone who talks of any kind of satisfaction about doing harm to someone speaks volumes about lack of experience.

Arms, legs, etc. are viable targets, especially if you know how and where to target major muscles and tendons to render them useless to the owners of said arms and legs. The point of the exercise is survival, and a mobile adversary decreases your odds in an armed conflict, be it with a firearm or a knife. Forget about the "if I do this, they'll stop fighting" ideas. Learn how to debillitate an attacker and expect to need more than one plan of atack. And if you feel any sense of satisfaction, proceed directly to your local therapist.

 

[hso]

Classes?

These are folks I know and that I trust to provide excellent training.

Janich
http://www.martialbladeconcepts.com/mbccamp.htm

Keating
http://www.jamesakeating.com/Catalog4.html

Southnarc
See the upcoming Atlanta course post in S&T. http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=269672

 

[kikr]

Knife vs gun, isn't hopeless. Your not fighting the gun your fighting the man holding it.

Break the midline- move to your 1o'clock, stepping outside his gun arm.

Close and Envelope-Get too close to him, quickly enough to keep him from turning the gun on you. Hit him fast, hard, and often with anything you've got available.

Fight through-Get beyond the BG's sphere, don't stand still, force him in a direction that gives you an avenue of escape.

Theres no hopeless situation...

 

[telkontar]

I believe the correct move in kikr's post above is to move to 11 o'clock (against a right-hander). I would prefer to be outside the shooter's arm rather than have him bring his weapon across his midline. It also avoids his off arm, neutralizing one of the shooter's tools.

 

[Soybomb]

Wars were fought with bladed weapons for thousands of years, and they were the most violent battles in history

Sounds good in theory but my 4" pocket knife isn't a swinging sword either. It seems like a bad comparison for most of what we're talking about.

I took Insights Training's Defensive Folding Knife class. In the class Insights teaches, the students are all given the opportunity to make cuts with their folding knife on a chunk of rump roast wrapped around a PVC pipe, slid inside a blue jeans pantsleg. It was enlightening. Certain techniques cut quite effectively and deeply, others not so . . .

I'd be interested in hearing more about this. Have you been taught to stab or slash more with folders?

 

[BullfrogKen]

I've been taught to do both.

Are you asking the Insight's training method?

 

[wheelgunslinger]

HSO and others have posted some valuable information here.
And, being glib or flip about using a knife on another human in a way that will make them expire is nothing to take lightly. You'll likely relive that interminable 30-45 seconds every day of your life and every time you close your eyes, smell or hear the wrong things. It will not be as pleasant as you may think.

On subject:
Move fast, take control of the gun hand and try to disarm without killing anyone. If I couldn't disarm, then I'd try to employ the knife before they knew it was there and keep control of the gun until the offender weakened enough to disarm.

If I didn't think I could disarm them, I'd probably follow the tactical suggestions that HSO posted about perforating the lungs.