So lets say you DO bring a knife to a gun fight. . .

[CNYCacher]

Or perhaps, while you are only carrying a knife, someone brings a gun fight to you. . .

Lets say due to whatever extenuating circumstances, you decide to go hand-to-hand with the bad guy. Running and all the smart ideas are not options. Maybe he is already in your face. Maybe he is threatening someone else and you have the drop on him. Who knows. Either way you mix it up. What are you going to do with your knife?

A thought occured to me today that maybe a good idea would be to slash the inner forearm of the gun hand. If you manage to cut some tendons/muscles then the bad guy loses the ability to pull trigger/hold onto gun. If possible attempt to control point of aim by holding the gunman's wrist with your other hand.

Seems just as viable / hopeless as any other knife vs gun idea. . .

Discuss.

 

[DDrake]

I can tell you one thing that's going to happen.....








Natural Selection. And lets just say your not going to spread your "knife-loving-genes" to any offspring.

 

[Damien45]

While your scenario is interesting there are a lot of unanswered "what if's". So you say that our Gunman (now referred as GM) has his gun and is using it to "control" his victims. Now you have your knife (now referred as CD <Crocodile Dundee>) and you want to stop this incident. Well:

What is the distance from CD to GM?
What is the Angle of attak?
Is GM distracted by any of his "herd"?

Honestly though, if you could get close enough I would suggest slashing across the outer wrist of the gun hand as it is an easier target and the muscles/tendons/ligaments controling the fingers run up to the elbow on the exterior of the forearm. (I know because I had to have a tendon reattached at one point)....painful.

 

[boredelmo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dUSqE9TDhg

This might help. But remember, the knife wielder already has knife in hand, the police have to unholster. Im sure for the sake of the video they were instructed to stand in the same position which doesnt seem realistic. Also i doubt most criminals will have a holster and would already have a gun drawn.

My move: Tackle/push/shove with all my weight towards the shooters arm with my left arm with simultaneously stabbing with my right.

 

[brerrabbit]

keep the knife in my pocket, shut the heck up, and try to placate the guy with the gun.

 

[Biker]

The old maxim "Charge a gun, run from a knife" comes to mind. If I was close enough, I'd attempt to grab and redirect the gun with my left hand while stabbing upward towards his groin with my knife hand. In other words, cut the bastige from butthole to appetite.

Biker

 

[Afy]

If was was close enough to the gun man not to miss with a knife... I would hope that it was a Khukri in my hand.

 

[Doggy Daddy]

DDrake
...
Natural Selection. And lets just say your not going to spread your "knife-loving-genes" to any offspring.

Gee thanks, Ducky!

I was going to check to make sure nobody took my answer before I posted it. You stole it from me in the first reply!

I admire that.

 

[Hemicuda]

I'm NOT a knife fighter... so... the knife is a LAST resort...

answer this... How is it I ended up in the fight without my gun, since I carry it all the time?

Edited to add: you stipulate that I have the element of surprise, right?

sneak up behind him, and push the barrel of whatever I'm carrying so flippin far into the BG's ear that when I fire, the bullet leaves the opposite ear without touching anything in the middle?

 

[Stretchman]

Meredith Hunter. A couple Hells Angels. Knives can and do win gunfights.
Altamont 1969.

Hunter was there to kill Mick Jagger.

Ask any surgeon. Knife wounds are far worse than gunshots. But the likelihood is that you'll get shot. Turn the situation around. You'll shoot the guy. But the likelihood is you'll get stabbed.

Know what the best solution is? Train for this stuff. Take a class or something. Me, when I have nothing better to do, I like to think about girls.

 

[hso]

Without training you can expect a draw. i.e. you both loose and the consolation prize can be the morgue.

Clever moves like defanging the snake to disable his gunhand are low percentage moves for someone trained to do it. For someone without training it is nearly impossible. With training and proximity you've got an excellent chance of killing the BG. If you have the will to do something so viciously brutal as kill a man with a knife. You will have to struggle with him for a while to keep his gun from being brought to bear on you or someone else. You will have to stab the knife through his clothing and skin and muscle repeatedly until he collapses from loss of blood or because you put enough holes in his lungs to keep him from breathing. This can take a while or it could be over in a few seconds if his will to survive isn't strong. You will need a good knife with a strong grip because blood will be all over your hands and it's like motor oil and syrup. Try to keep it out of your eyes and avoid getting it into a wound because you just can't tell about folks level of health these days. It isn't something to be taken lightly.

 

[meef]

hso... that's just plain icky.

You're taking all the fun out of the fantasy.

 

[hso]

You're taking all the fun out of the fantasy.

Yup.

I've been very luck and never had to do this, but some of the people that I've trained with have and they've tried to impress upon us that it's a frightful process.

If you go for the arm with a knife stab into it and rip out while twisting.

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

I don't get the fascination with non-mortal wounds.

If you're close, and you have the element of surprise, go for the throat. If you're a big guy with a big knife, I've heard the brainstem and kidneys are decent targets too.

If you don't have the element of surprise, well you're probably screwed... But I've always been a fan of "violence of action" when it comes to CQB anyway.


If I gotta knifefight with someone with a gun, I'm going for the kill. He won't be aiming for my arm.

 

[hso]

TLBS,

There are no instant kills short of decapitation. Nothing is guranteed. The guys I've trained (SF, Corrections, LE, EMTs) with got their information the hard way and they assure me that a man with a cut throat can last as much as 30 very active seconds. The brain stem attack is very difficult to pull off unless your subject is a very large sluggish amphibian and you've got an ice pick to shove into that itty bitty hole at the base of his skull instead of some BG who is not cooperating with you trying to shove a Swiss Army Knife blade into his medula. Guys get shived in the "kidney" all the time in prison and return the "favor" when they get out of hospital. It's all a big crap shoot. Whatever you've got a crack at is what you should take. Personally, if it was a choice between using the 4" Neely I carry and applying a bonus size can of sweet corn from aisle 4 on the back of the BG's mellon I'd try to feed him the corn, repeatedly, until his nap time came early. It's a better bet.

 

[Byron Quick]

Listen to hso. I treat people who have received mortal wounds from knives...many of them walk into the Emergency Department. And have the wherewithal to shoot their attacker multiple times, reload, and do it again.

I know people who've been stabbed in the heart and lived. I know a guy whose throat was slashed from ear to ear, who chased his assailant to the point that man ran to the police station to escape him.

I know people who've been shot in the brain who are still walking around just fine. Know people who've been stabbed all over the place.

To date, the people I've treated who received multiple blows to the head from a 2X4 are dead except for one...he's on a ventilator in a nursing home.

I believe there's a clandestine school teaching the deadly art of the 2X4 in western SC. I tell people around here that if you're attacked with gun or knife, the odds are you will survive. If the assailant has a 2X4, then move heaven and earth to stop the attack or escape.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

If You Must

If you absolutely must engage with a knife and the other guy has a gun, I'm thinking job one is keeping the muzzle pointed somewhere else while inflicting enough damage with the knife for a positive stop.

Which, as hso and Byron remarked, is not going to be a cake walk.

Survival is a pretty strong motivator, and unnatural levels of strength and disregard for pain can be expected.

If you're close enough to engage with a knife, but you can't keep the gun off line, the fight could well have two losers and no winners.

Yes, I've seen some impressive videos of a Filipino dude doing amazing stuff in that context, but if you don't have that training down cold, you could easily find yourself trading perforations with the other guy.

In general, I'm thinking this is one engagement best left unfulfilled.

 

[sm]

hso and others have training in such matters, I suggest folks forget about Sci-Fi books, Testosterone Novels , and Internet.

My experience and observations when matters are such one cannot effectively evade, no matter if the opponent is not armed, armed with a gun, pipe, tire iron, edged weapon or whatever else, is to:

-Action is quicker than reaction.
-Distract /Mess up opponents thinking [OODA Loop]
-Protect your vital areas.
-Do not get "wrapped up"
-End up on the ground

Lady Luck, - she is welcome anytime, anywhere, in my life.

I have been damn lucky.

Mentors and some have various backgrounds from LEO, Military and such...
Some were Veterans when I was a wee brat.
Amputees, disfigured, nasty wounds, and from time to time, these old war injuries "flared up" and needed taking care of.

Some are alive, because they kept fighting, though shot, cut, bludgeons and whatever else.
Serious injuries that resulted in amputations, losing an eye, metal plate in skull.
Lived long enough, measured in seconds to kill the opponent.
Many were honest to goodness surprised to wake up - and not be waking up dead.
They had to be told they killed the opponent(s).

hso, El Tejon and others that train...
The instructors that instruct, my most sincere appreciation and gratitude for sharing.

NetNinjas, Wannabes, Armchair Commandos,
I suggest you get off Internet, and volunteer your time at a Veteran's Hospital.
Pay close attention and listen, to the men and women that have served. Pay attention to those that come in for treatments, and services. Pay attention to all Medical Staff.
IF...If you are fortunate to have a Veteran share with you, shut up and pay attention. They have seen the elephants and one can learn a helluva of lot by listening.

If you do not swell up or show gratitude, or get a lump in your throat and teary eyed, something is seriously wrong with you.


Lady Luck was there for me, more than once.
Open door and gun in my face.
Elevator and gun pulled on me - by a lady.
Standing at the front of my vehicle, me in driver's seat, and able to evade with a gun pointed at me.
I used a trash can lid, and trash can to defend more than one, at first we thought only two, there were three. I acted plumb nuts, yelling and cursing - I went inside, this allowed another to evade to safety and get help.

Lady Luck was there for me/us. What, how I did - is not important.
What hso, El Tejon and others trained/ instruct and can share with you - is.

 

[____hoot____]

Give me a baseball bat or a shovel anyday. Have sluggers under both the front and back steps and a sharpened #1 in the back of the truck. Lord!, I'd rather have a 12" adjustable wrench in my hand[which is under the front seat of the car]than any damned knife I could carry.

 

[Biker]

I'm with you, Hoot. Even though I carry a gerber MII on my hip, I keep a Slugger in my truck and a 15" wrench in my saddlebags. I'd prefer either over a knife.

Biker

 

[hso]

It took me one class going knife on stick to teach me that stick trumps knife most every time. I learned that the guy with the knife can "win", i.e. be the second place looser, but that you had to train to it and you had to have luck on your side if you didn't want your brains bashed out. I tote an ASP baton wherever I can and have a nice long socket handle with a fat lug nut size socket head on it in the vehicle just in case something needs changing like a tire or a bad attitude.

 

[Shifty]

in close quarters vs a guy with a pistol, i would grab his gun arm and push it up and away with my left arm, knee to groin or stomach, and knife to temple and twist, and/or maybe up under chin, aimed back at brainstem, or side of neck and twist, but this requires at least a 4inch knife and a strong jab. center left chest for a left ventricle puncture if you can get the leverage and again, if you have a long enough knife.

for dramatic effect you can disembowel them with a good horizontal slash across the lower abdomen if you can get to it, but it doesnt do much in the way of stopping an attack. though i guess if you reached in and yanked their guts out or went tazmanian devil with your knife from the inside that might work.

lol sorry, health care workers are a sick twisted lot.



yea, i have thought about it, but the only time this comes into play would be if they were directly in your face, you werent armed, and you suspect they had no intention of just taking your wallet and running. but can you ever really know???

regardless, i hope to god i never ever find myself in a situation like that.

 

[mljdeckard]

hso is right. When you are knife fighting, you aren't going to Steven Seagal him in the skull. Knife fights are the process of seeing who bleeds the fastest.

I have a Gerber Mk II on my web gear. (Pity they don't make them anymore.) I also have a Buckmaster, but it's really too big for practicality. I have actually cut down small trees with it, but, for pete sake, when do you ever REALLY need to do that? (I didn't really need to at the time, I just wanted to see how to do it.) The Gerber steel strikes better on a firestarter anyway.

Utah allows me to carry a knife as well as a gun with my permit, and I always have a CRKT folder with the tanto-style blade clipped in my right pocket. I have had some knife training, and what it taught me is: This is the last thing you want to have to do. You WILL get cut yourself. You WILL expose yourself to every disease in the bad guy's blood. It's bad enough when you shoot someone in self-defense, now imagine trying to explain to the homicide detective and DA that it was self-defense when you stabbed the victim repeatedly, made him drop his gun, kept stabbing him, and you're covered in his blood.

If I actually had to use it, the best move is often going to be to go for the femoral artery. If you're face to face, it's not the vital area he is going to be expecting an attack to. If you're on the ground, (as in ALREADY WOUNDED,) you can reach up to it. Find either side where the leg meets the pelvis, drop two inches if you can, and rip as hard as you can, look for the bone. The BG will bleed to death quickly.

The real reason I carry a knife is in anticipation of some reason I can't get to my gun, like my strong hand is being held or is disabled, if I'm being held from behind around the neck, or grappling on the ground. In any of these cases, when I've cut him enough to make him let go, THEN I WILL DRAW AND SHOOT HIM.

 

[Reddbecca]

Just my take on it. If somebody facing you has a gun and all you have is a knife, you MIGHT be able to defeat them. If you're in close enough that as they're drawing you can actually latch onto the gun or their arm with your free hand, and can use your other hand to slice their arm with their knife and sever motor control, you might be able to take the gun right away from them.

Doing so though would require expert timing, incredible reflexive response times, and more luck than a new guy going into a Las Vegas casino would need.

 

[SoCalShooter]

Lots of luck to you. We moved away from using edged items as main battle weapons for a reason. But if you were to do this, you would definetly need to train, have some damn steely nerves and go for an immediate kill shot with the knife, IE.something that stops all CNS activity. I heard this once maybe the Romans said it, " 2 inches in the right place". You CAN quickly disable someone with a knife but it takes some skill.

i would grab his gun arm and push it up and away with my left arm,

If you were to do that you would have an excellent shot at the attackers arm pit and a side shot at the lungs.