Multiple shotgun and shotgunning questions; RE: 11-87

[bernie]

I hardly know where to start, but here goes. I am not a shotgunner, I am a rifleman. However, I have shot scatterguns since my early teens. I started using them to hunt squirrel so I probably developed more of an "aim" type technique than I really need. I moved on to duck and rabbit and also informal clays at the farm with my buddies (these guys are not really "classic wingshots" either), and I do okay.

I used my own 870 12 gauge with vent rib, but have shot lots of my friends shotguns as well, so I have experienced more than just one or two shotguns.

A few years ago, I got the hankering (yes, that is a word in the southland) for a self shucker and bought the 11-87 light contour, and I really like the reliability and how the gun carries. But this is where the trouble begins.

I suddenly could not hit squat! I put it off to the fact that I did not shoot as much as I used to because of kids, work, etc. And then one day it happened. I was shooting at a low passing duck out of my blind and made what I felt was a definite kill shot, only to see the pattern hit the water underneath the duck. I mean it totally shot underneath the duck, not even close.

This is where the questions start. Up to now, I shot a shotgun by sighting down the top of the barrel so that the vent rib looked like a totally flat line with a bead on top or I could just see a little bit of the top of the rib. This has worked for almost every shotgun that I have ever fired. My 11-87 requires me to look down at the rib and front bead, kind of like an aircraft trying to land on an aircraft carrier, to hit what I am shooting at. Which of these techniques is correct?

I also patterned my 11-87 with various loads and chokes, and they are all well below point of aim (correct my terminology if it is wrong) if I use the first sighting method described above. This does not sound like a shotgun "fit" problem to me. Am I correct? If it is not a "fit" problem, how can I get it resolved to shoot to point of aim? Can the barrel be "bent", etc. to shoot to point of aim?

If it is a fit problem, I do want to keep the 11-87 (I actually like this platform) how can I get this resolved in my area (Arkansas) and what will it cost me?

Also, any good books on shotgunning that could be recommended would be appreciated.

 

[kirbythegunsmith]

Some details

I have been endeavoring to spread the word about shotgun barrels having the possibility of chokes being installed crooked. The first rude example that brought that to my attention was a shooter's barrel that hit 11" high at 19 yards. That was 22 years ago, and he was doubting his ability after 40 years hunting rather than doubting the quality of the esteemed maker of these guns that he treasured, at least until the wrong bird fell out of the bunch when he fired. I have had customers with barrels hitting all over, and as much as a foot off at 20 yards. One caller had a barrel that he said was off that far at about 15 yards! I have seen highly-engraved gold inlay guns, super-megabuck trap guns, and plenty of aftermarket and factory choke holes that were crooked, with no consistent rhyme or reason as to the direction of shot impact.

I make it a habit to recommend to anyone buying a barrel or gun with choke tubes, to automatically presume that they are not in line straight with the bore. Then you know to expect to have the barrel cut off to have a straight choke installed, so buy the barrel longer than you want to have (if possible), so it can be cut to the length that you want. Even if you can't buy the longer barrel, I have a quip that goes: "a shorter barrel with a straight choke has got to be better than a longer barrel with a crooked choke", and figure that anyone that doesn't understand that logic is beyond my help.

The picture attached is of a crooked choke installation in a Browning B/SS side-by-side, and happened to have been done at a prominent gunshop that has been written about in glowing terms in many articles. How do you like the outer ripple ring caused by pushing the metal to the point of upset?
If your tool isn't cutting fast enough, it must be because you ain't pushin' hard enough!

That was one job that I had to install chokes to replace the botched job that was there, and I found the reason that the installation had been such a bear, in the first place.

There are attachments to make you hold the gun different, re-adjust the angle of the stock so that you can point the gun straight, re-do the rib alignment to the barrel, and a host of other gizmos.
If my car had a mis-aligned front end, I wouldn't want the mechanic to tell me that he could reset the steering wheel on the post, or move the seat to make me sit over to one side to get the right view through the windshield. That is what I think is happening when somebody wants to use a crutch to move your point of impact, without consideration about the choke straightness being even on the list of possibilities! Once you have a choke that is in a straight line to the bore (the best way to get the best patterns, also, unless somebody wants to say that a crooked choke could be of some type of help?) you can then try the rib or stock adjustment.

Remington barrels with the spot-welded rib posts are not one that I would recommend to bend for point of impact, regardless. Floating ribs on posts are more forgiving of the bending actions, but I prefer them mainly to the "up" direction, only. I had the problem of another shop's chokes being in a 2-barrel Ljutic single barrel trap gun and both barrels shot dead flat for the owner. I made them both hit high and higher for his trapshooting.

These problems are some of the reasons that I have had other gun shops send me the "problem" guns that need fixing. I have installed my own custom chokes in all sizes of barrels including those that other shops would have said were too thin for a choke tube installation.

Check out the posts that I put in the SBE-II vs. the Extrema, or check my specific posts to see more problems that I attempt to expose and explain.

[email protected]

 

[another okie]

I'm certainly no expert, but shotguns are touchy about fit.

The comb might be different than you are used to. You might try a taller front sight or a fiber optic front sight. The choke or barrel might be installed wrong, as pointed out above. You might try a shorter or longer stock, or just a recoil pad.

Or you might have reached bifocal age.

 

[PJR]

Before doing anything too exotic with the barrels I'd try building up the stock comb. The rear sight of a shotgun is your eye. If it's too low in relation to the barrel then the gun will shoot low. Try adding a little height to the stock comb and see whether that helps.

 

[dmarbell]

Patterning

Kirby,

I read your post with some interest. I just bought a Remington 11-87 SC. I need to pattern the gun, and I have a question for you (and others regarding patterning).

I have read that to pattern a shotgun, you should mount it normally and fire. But first, I want to know where the gun is shooting when the barrel is "aimed" at a certain place. I have the idea to shoot the gun from a fixed position. I'd like to mount a mini-mag light, or ideally a laser, in the barrel to see where the center of the barrel (and choke) is aimed. Then mark that point, and shoot the gun (from a bench?). If the barrel is relatively straight, and the chokes are straight, then I get a good pattern for the choke and barrel. I could then mount the gun and pattern it based on where I am looking down the barrel.

Do I have too much time on my hands?

Danny

 

[jnormanh]

There's probaly nothing wrong with either you or your shotgun except that you're afflicted with "rifleman's disease".

When you learn to shoot a rifle, it's all about precision. Time is meaningless. take as long as necessary to produce a stable, staitionary aim point.

Shotgun shooting is all about swing and timing - point and shoot - just as you would point a finger, or throw a snowball at a moving car.

Damned few people shoot both rifles and shotguns well.

I learned to shoot as a 13 year old at the police firing range with a .22 rifle, and to this day, even though I've shot rifles very little over the past fifty years, I can still cut Daisey stems at 50 yards.

I began trying to learn shotgun shooting at the ripe old age of 40, and despite 25 years of instructon and 50K practice rounds, i still can't shoot a shotgun as well as a rifle. Some days I do shoot a shotgun well....when i can wake up, swing and point (NOT aim) the gun, and hit the trigger.

 

[bernie]

Thanks for the responses so far.

Kirby - thank you for your detailed response, I wondered about the choke tube alignment myself, to the point of trying different tubes, but I did not think about the threads hot being "true."

I do not think it is bifocal age or even the "fit" of the shotgun because I do not have this problem with any other shotgun and I shoot lots of others. Lately I have shot 870's, over unders, Winchester 140's, A5's, and M1 Super 90's. I apologize for not making this clear in the initial post.

I admit that I have "rifleman's" disease, jnormanh - that is a perfect description of my shotgunning woes, but normally I do not have this much trouble.

However, new development, I was talking to my buddy today, explaining this shotgun problem.

He then says, "Hey, borrow mine and see if this still occurs." Borrow yours! I did not even know he had one. I go by his house after work and he has the exact same shotgun as I have. It was given to him when he was a farm chemical rep by a manufacturers rep and he never even shot it ("It does not fit me right," he says). Long story short, I will shoot it in the next few days and post the results.

I appreciate all the input, if anybody else has an idea, please let me know.

 

[kirbythegunsmith]

More details

When patterning a shotgun, the first preparation is to verify the point of impact at a close enough distance for the spread of shot to be fully contained on the target. I typically recommend a distance of 40' to 60', with target paper of at least 2 foot square size.
Do your shooting from the line, not the bench, so there is no influence any different than when you shoot in the field. I will make an exception for shooters that will only shoot from a bench, at shooting matches, or for those that want to do more research after shooting offhand. The bench can be of help to steady a shot, but will have the situation altered vs. the grip and connection of the gun to the shooter. That is why there can be variance between different shooters using the same gun, shells, and bench location, with different points of impact. Loose grip, tight grip, heavy build, trigger control or lack thereof, all sorts of details that can have potential to cause variance.

Any barrel with the screw-in choke should be tested ( at least at first) with a fairly tight choke, at leasy "mod", if not "full". Let us presume for a moment that you have a mis-aligned choke tube hole in the example barrel. If you use an open choke for test firing, the shot may only get decent contact with the side of the choke tube that leans into the way, and will not have the assurance of having the true measure of the POI (point of impact).

Start with a dot (about an inch) in the center, hold the gun with natural pointing that you expect to use (flat down the rib or barrel, stacked beads, or your preference), and have the top of the bead appear to have the aiming spot floating on the top of the bead. That way you know exactly where the line of division is located. 50/50 would have half above the bead, and the other...
Remember to mark the target at the top corner with the load, distance, and other pertinent info., since if you need to refer to that target at a later date, you will already know that the top is where the writin' is located and what you did at that time. Put on the date, also, at least on the first pattern, and roll them as a unit when you save the best ones as keepers. I don't see any reason to save ones that are similar enough to be unable to discern the difference, but just make note on the "keeper" of how many looked comparable.

Impact point testing can be started with light loads of finer shot size, like 8's or 9's, and progress to the stouter loads at the end, if you intend to use them very often. Different loads can have different impact, but if you hold consistently, the difference is not going to be major.
After the first shot, you may notice the lack of uniformity of the shot grouping, if you chose a large shot size like #6. This case is more helped by shooting 2 or 3 shots at the same target, and the smoothing effect of the multiple patterns overlaid is very effective for checking. You should be confident that you did not accidentally "pull" any of the shots, or else set the pattern(s) aside to ignore (no matter the number of shots on the paper).
If you flinch the first shot, don't shoot 2 more (that are just a waste) at the same target. Same if you flinch on the #2 or 3 shot on targets that you wanted to have with multi-hits registered.
You can see how the spread of an open choke looks more uniform with multiple shots on the paper. The example is a .410 with chokes opened to cylinder by an amateur, but after a small rescue effort on my part. The point of impact was over to the side prior to my remedy, and that picture is posted elsewhere here in a post about choke alteration (see my list of posts for more info.) There are 3 shots on the pattern pictured, just 2-1/2" shells with a half-oz. of shot, each.

After the initial shots are fired and you now may happen to see that the shot is to the side, or to the "up" side, and not having all the shot on the paper. This is where you judge how far to move your aiming spot, so when you point at it for the next shots, the shot pattern will be a lot closer to centered on the target. Then if you happen to notice that the shot is too spread to be contained on the paper, move in closer.

The notion of moving your face to change the impact is valid, if the gun does not have your face in the proper position for an aligned sight picture. You would alter the stock on a rifle if you couldn't move your face far enough over to get a good look at the sights.
I would not make presumptions that all is well with the gun, and that all defects lie in the shooter. If you have to plant your eye to one side of the rib to have a proper point of impact, and not look down the center, then I would be thinking something is verrrry wrong.
I do think that there are useful adjustments for stocks, and proper fitting is another neat idea, but never can anything be considered a cure-all, just a substitute, if a prime problem is an off-center choke tube installation.

I can fix the scope mount or iron sights to zero in on a rifle that has a bent barrel, but have I cured the gun with that repair? Don't try to ignore a very basic and prevalent problem, just because the idea is unpleasant to you. Most shooters don't want to admit that they bought a "defective" gun, so therefore their choke can't be one of the crooked ones, now, right? Rest assured that you have plenty of company, and I own several guns that have defective chokes, but haven't had time to sell or fix them, yet. I tell absolutely EVERYBODY that gets a barrel or gun from me that the choke is not right, and let them decide if they want me to put in a straight choke for them.

Very seldom, but possible, is the problem of the choke tube -itself- being bored out with the inside not in line with the outside, or having a large burr that makes the tube sit "canted", or possibly being squeezed into an out-of-round condition, but the most often-found problem is the poorly installed choke hole.

See my other posts on the SBE-II vs. Extrema2 to see the off-center forcing cone pictures. They will help to explain why using a laser in the chamber will not be aligned with the bore of the barrel for bore sighting. I will also mention the fact that many shotgun barrels are deliberately made with bends and curves in them. The flashlight is an interesting idea, but no light source through the barrel can be considered to hold really close to the expected POI.

If the light goes through the choke from the back end of the barrel, it cannot align the light with a tilted choke, only the amount of displacement at the front of the tube. Draw it out and you'll see what I mean. The tube is 2", the barrel is 30" and the tube tilt angle is in that 2" section. If the tube was a collimator, it would show only the point angle of the tube. I believe that is the predominant influence when chokes with some constriction are used.

Wasn't that simple? Now you are ready to pattern, if you calculate how far to have the aim spot from the center of the paper. That is why I like a 40' distance, so approximately 3 times the amount is the multiple for movement of the spot, if you are patterning at the traditional 40 yard distance.

How many of you have noticed that in many of the gun magazine pattern tests of a gun, that the aim spot is displaced from the center of the pattern circle, and a fair amount of times, the pattern is lopsided enough to make me think that they "fudged" the point. Sometimes the left sides of the pattern have more shot, for example, when the aim spot is somewhat to the right. If they had moved the spot over even more, the lopside would have probably been more centered, but would have made the gun manufacturer look more sloppy on the installation.

 

[ECB]

Shotgun lessons learned.

Ensure you are using your master eye.
Point, don't aim.
Both eyes open.
Follow through.

 

[bernie]

I shot my friends 11-87 and it shoots exactly like mine does.

It is official, I now need to "adapt and overcome."

Rounds of clay target shooting and extensive pattern testing are now in my future to retrain myself to shoot this shotgun.

Thanks for all the help.

 

[LUGNUTZ426]

IF YOU DON'T HAVE A MID BEAD I SUGGEST YOU INSTALL ONE. THAN GET A
CHEEK EZE OR OTHER PADDED STOCK COVER TO RAISE YOUR COMB UNTIL
YOU SEE THE FRONT SIGHT AND MID BEAD MAKE A "FIGURE 8" YOU SHOULD THEN BE SHOOTING FLAT OR A LITTLE HIGH. MY SON WHO IS "THIN SKINNED" SHOT LOW WITH HIS 1187 PREMIER. WE ADDED A COMB RAISING KIT FROM BEARTOOTH (21 BUCKS ON THEIR WEBSITE) AND HE SHOOTS LEVEL. WE ADD AN EXTRA 1/4 INCH PAD (IN THE KIT) WHEN WE SHOOT TRAP AND HE WENT FROM 12 OR 14 TO 21 -24 OUT OF 25 OVERNIGHT! CHEAP FIX FOR A FRUSTRATING SITUATION

SHOOT WELL