multiple trigger pulls?

[jashobeam]

Okay, so with some autoloaders you can keep pulling the trigger (as when dry-firing) without having to rack the slide in order to reset the trigger. What is this capability called?

Is this really a big deal?

The reason I ask is that a certain salesperson at the gun store I work at will unfailingly tell every customer interested in a Glock that Glocks "only give you one pull on the trigger." He then continues, "If for whatever reason the gun fails to fire, you can't pull the trigger again without first racking the slide."

I recently purchased four books about self-defense shooting techniques that were recommended to me by THR members. I'm almost through with the second book and I have yet to read that in case of a FTF the shooter should pull the trigger again and see if that'll do the trick. Isn't it "Tap, rack, bang"? Or "Tap, rack, reassess the situation"? If a round doesn't fire, are you really going to waste the time (and another potential shot opportunity) to give that round a second chance? Doesn't it make more sense to ditch that bullet and give the next one a try?

The sales dude in question hates Glocks, loves Berettas. I really feel like he's scraping the bottom of the barrel to make this into an issue of dependability. I have a Glock 17. I really like it. I don't think Glocks are perfect, nor do I think that everyone should like them or choose to use them. But I don't understand people who can't at least appreciate them, or who would go out of their way to convince less knowledgeable people that this is even an issue of concern.

Again I ask, does this matter? Would you not buy a gun because it lacked this feature? Would it be the first negative thing you'd point out about a handgun?

 

[1911 guy]

Most autoloaders don't do this.

I'll bet if you push him a little, the gunshop guy is either pushing revolvers or a certain brand of auto.

The ability to pull the trigger a second time on the same round is a non-issue. Pulling again with a revolver puts a fresh round in front of the pin and gives you "bang". Pulling a second time with a DAO auto does nothing more than strike a defective round again. What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

BTW, not all DAO pistols do this, but the only ones I'm aware of are DAO.

 

[gearbox]

Tell him the best bet for a fail-to-fire under dire circumstances is to drop the mag, rack the slide with authority twice, insert a fresh mag, rack and shoot.

That will clear everything but a broken extractor or a backward-seated cartridge

If you rack, lock, assess and decide, that can get you killed before you figure out the nosedive, double-feed, stovepipe, bad primer or what-have-you

 

[Majic]

It's called "second strike capability". While a lot of folks don't like that capability quite a few round have gone off when struck a second time.

 

[444]

What is this capability called?

You can do that with any double action pistol or revolver as far as I know. In an autoloader, if the hammer falls on a dud round (or an empty chamber) the hammer will stay in the down postion since the slide didn't run. However, if the gun is double action, you can now pull the trigger again and attempt to fire again.
I agree with you. This isn't a good idea. Your response to a malfunction needs to be the same drill every time. If the trigger pull is normal, the hammer falls as normal, and nothing happens, you need to tap/rack/access.

On a side note, over the years I have had my share of dud rounds. MOST of the time that I attempted to fire them again, they did indeed fire the second time around. As was mentioned, this is not something you should be practicing for defensive purposes.

 

[otomik]

generally if it's striker-fired precocked by the slide like a Glock then it doesn't have a second strike ability. Then there's DAO guns with a (concealed) hammer like the Beretta 92D, they can deliver second strikes on the same ammo.

then there's some precocked hammer systems like SIG DAK, IIRC a second strike is possible but it will be a heavier trigger pull.

common response is, but your rack-tap-bang reflex should make this unnecessary.

common retort is but my carry pistol is too reliable for me to get regular rack tap bang practice or well people get panicy in a firefight like FBI agent Edmundo Mireles, hero of the Miami shootout that was pointing his revolver on Platt pulling the trigger repeatedly striking empty cylinders a few moments after it was over.

 

[Azrael256]

I have had exactly one round fire from a second strike, and that was done by changing guns. The first had a wonky firing pin. Every other failure has been bad ammo, and would not fire the first, second, or fifteenth time.

 

[jashobeam]

Thanks everyone

I thought I was on crazy pills for not understanding the amazing virtue of second strike capability. I'm very glad to hear that so far everyone is in agreement that, though it might be a nice option when target shooting, being able to pull the trigger a second or third time on a potentially dud round is not a feature upon which to judge a handgun's combat worthiness.

people get panicy in a firefight like FBI agent Edmundo Mireles, hero of the Miami shootout that was pointing his revolver on Platt pulling the trigger repeatedly striking empty cylinders a few moments after it was over.

This is a good point and one that I had considered mentioning in my original post. Because of SANS override and auditory exclusion (just to throw around some newly learned terms and phrases), there does exist a very real possibility that a panicked shooter might continue to "shoot" at a BG without realizing that the gun is not (or is no longer) firing.

I read a story many years ago about two officers who, upon exiting their vehicles after arriving in response to a call, were confronted by a man with a gun. When the man failed to heed the officers' warnings and instead raised his gun, both officers shot him with their revolvers until the man fell. One officer heard "click, click, click, click" and suddenly became aware that he had not stopped pulling the trigger. He looked over at his partner and saw him also "click, click, clicking" away.

I would not consider it a concern or a weakness if my pistol did or did not have this capability.

 

[otomik]

I would not consider it a concern or a weakness if my pistol did or did not have this capability.

I'm looking for it now but I remember someone was posting an article where an officer was injured or died because after a few shots his gun "jammed" but the discription sounded like the ammo didn't fire, the officer didn't remember his rack tap bang drills and later didn't have an extra hand free because he was grappling with the suspect. I think a second strike is an advantage, the Glock wasn't allowed to compete in the M9 trials because it lacked second strike ability.

Other things I don't like about this striker fired pre-cocked system
1. The striker spring is kept in tension, leading to loss of spring strength over time. not a big deal for duty, but for storage you're going to want to dry fire it to relieve this tension, people forget this. most wouldn't forget to do this on a hammer fired gun but they do forget on a glock there's not that visual feedback. The disassembly procedure of pulling the trigger isn't ideal and leads to a lot of NDs.
2. just an aesthetic point, the glock design leaves an awkward gaping "anal cavity" in the heel of the pistol, aftermarket manufacturers actually produce a "butt plug". I think a striker fired system generally leads to a loss in aesthetics, pistols should have hammers. Recently Glock has been using the space to put in a integral lock

The sales dude in question hates Glocks, loves Berettas. I really feel like he's scraping the bottom of the barrel to make this into an issue of dependability. I have a Glock 17. I really like it. I don't think Glocks are perfect, nor do I think that everyone should like them or choose to use them. But I don't understand people who can't at least appreciate them, or who would go out of their way to convince less knowledgeable people that this is even an issue of concern.

Just to put my cards on the table, I love Berettas and appreciate Glocks. It may seem like sales dood is scraping the bottom of the barrel but he's going to have to get into a pretty detailed explanation why he prefers the Beretta because the Glock is very good too. If dependability is the big issue I'd say Beretta's open slide design gives it the "most reliable out of the box" title but Glock durability is legendary.

I'm very glad to hear that so far everyone is in agreement that, though it might be a nice option when target shooting, being able to pull the trigger a second or third time on a potentially dud round is not a feature upon which to judge a handgun's combat worthiness.

can't really agree to that, but the reasons I've given are fairly subtle and matter more to some, not that I'm some guy with a bunch of holes in his walls from NDs.

 

[444]

"my carry pistol is too reliable for me to get regular rack tap bang practice"

I hope there arn't people saying that.
This is obvious, or at least I think so: you can practice all the malfunctions dry. You can easily set up each of the three types of malfunctions and then clear them in dry practice. Better yet, you can have someone else set up malfunctions on your gun while you are not looking. They then hand you the gun and you clear it. In addition, you can buy some snap caps. Load your magazines at home and randomly insert snap caps into your magazines. When you get to the range, you won't know what mags have snap caps or where they are. As you are shooting you will have failures to fire which you will clear with tap/rack/access.

One minor point that has not been discussed in this thread is the fact that there are three main types of malfunctions. Only one of these could possibly be cleared by simply pulling the trigger again and even then only under some circumstances. If the slide is in battery, you get a normal trigger pull, the hammer falls as normal, and nothing happens, this is called a Type 1 malfunction: failure to fire. It could be a dud round that MAY respond to a second attempt to fire. But you also might have a Type 1 malfunction (failure to fire) because you are out of ammo and the slide didn't lock back. You can keep clicking away all day and it isn't going to clear it. This is the reason that I don't think it makes sense to practice trying to strike the round a second time. It is highly unlikely that a dud round is the cause of your malfunction. Bad ammo is not a common thing. Other problems: like running out of ammo is a far more common problem. In addition, it would seem to me that adding another type of malfunction clearing drill that requires a little thought (double striking) would make things a lot more complicated.

 

[otomik]

444, good ideas (nodding in agreement)

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The Para Ordnance LDA pistols are generally considered to ne double action, but they don't offer second strike capability. Pull the trigger once and, if it doesn't go bang, you have to rack the slide to reset.

 

[Shipwreck]

The Walther P99 A/S has second strike cabability. And, Any DA/SA w/ an external hammer does too.

 

[Tim Burke]

The more reliable your gun, the more you need to practice TRBs. There is a tendency when the gun does something entirely unexpected to just stare at the gun with a stupid expression on your face. This is bad form, and to be discouraged.
Second strike capability or not, my immediate action drill for a Failure to Fire in an autoloader is TRB.

 

[Azrael256]

1. The striker spring is kept in tension, leading to loss of spring strength over time.

Er, no. Keeping tension on the spring, provided that it is within the design spec for the spring, is not going to damage, fatigue, or in any other way harm the spring. I've dealt with countless magazines that were kept full for decades of non-use and neglect, as well as one 1911 and one BHP that were C&L in a display case since before my birth. All were absolutely filthy, and would not function without some serious cleaning, but none of the springs failed from sitting compressed. The only failure was one spring that had rusted out, which is hardly a compression problem.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Its not just the second-strike capability we're talking about here, but the potential to start from hammer-down, something that those who don't like "cocked and locked" seek out. Most service pistols (police, some military) have this function, as "cocked and locked" is avoided in some organizations.

Any gun that has second strike has first strike, too -- without having to release the safety. (SIGS, M9s, S&W semis, etc.)

 

[otomik]

Most service pistols (police, some military) have this function, as "cocked and locked" is avoided in some organizations.

psychological issues, glocks are pre-cocked by the slide, cocked and locked by internal safeties, people are just frightened by the sight of a cocked hammer.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Semi-precocked, actually. The striker must be cocked FURTHER before it is released. (But your point about "psychological" issues is correct.)