Why are some autos called DA when they are not?

[Cannonball888]

For instance Glocks are considered double-action. Well, to me double-action is when you pull the trigger it cocks the hammer and then releases it to fire the gun. Glocks don't do that. You have to rack the slide to cock the hammer. Now my Kel-tec P3AT is true double-action. Pulling the trigger cocks the hammer and then releases it. To me a Glock is a single action like a 1911 except it has no exposed hammer.

 

[eldon519]

Glocks get by on the technicality that the striker is not fully cocked from the action of the slide. The slide only cocks the weapon part of the way. It's that spongy part of the Glock trigger pull that cocks it the last little bit and then fires it. It's truly not a SA or DA. I tend to think it's closer to SA though.

 

[Jim Watson]

As Eldon says, they are getting by on a technicality and are officially considered double action. It is worth millions to Gaston. No police department would buy a single action duty gun these days. The S&W Plastic M&P is on an even more narrow technicality, but they are trying to give Glock a run for the money.

You don't see any departments issuing XDs, they did not try for the technical virgin, uh, double action status, got listed as single action by IDPA, and as a result are not considered by the city purchasing department.

 

[ugaarguy]

Glocks are a modified DA. The trigger pull still cocks (finishes cocking at least) the striker, and releases it. Para's LDA is a more visible example of this. In the LDA setup the slide cycling partially cocks the hammer and puts a good bit of tension on the mainspring. When you pull the trigger you see the hammer going back and then being released. The two mechanisms are functionally very similar.

In contrast, the 1911 trigger pull performs but one single action; it releases the fully cocked hammer (via tripping the sear).

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

It makes me wonder if they'll come out with a new designation like SF (striker fired) for the onslaught of poly pistols. Might have to redo the conditions also since you can't really consider a glock cocked & locked with one in the chamber. I guess most people carry their glocks in condition 0.5

 

[redneckrepairs]

IMHO back in the revolver days such things were clear cut , the trigger could either perform one action or two ( release the hammer or cock and release the hammer ). Over the years tho the longer heavier trigger pull became known as double action pull ( it was not possible with a single action ) Enter the Glock and confusion. Glock marketed it as a " double action trigger " since no right thinking administrator in their target customer base in the us ( police , and more specificly police administrators ) would support a gun that is " single action" without an external independent from trigger pull safety . Glock made a hole in one on marketing no matter how the firearm works . So now we end up relying on such phrases as " double action only" ( isnt that an oxymoron ... or something my english classes fail me , as does my speeling ) to describe an auto with a consistant long pull to activate it . Note that the original design(s) such as the walther p38 s&w 39/59 , sigs , ect... more reflect the original meaning of " double action " than the current crop of glocks , kahrs , ect . Like language tho definitions change over time

 

[ugaarguy]

It makes me wonder if they'll come out with a new designation like SF (striker fired) for the onslaught of poly pistols

"They" already have. Do a little searching about the on again - off again JCPP (Joint Combat Pistol Program). In the RFPs & RFIs related to the JCPP you'll see language specifying that the pistol be Double Action (DA) or Striker Fired Action (SFA).

However, there's almost as much variety in striker operating systems as there is in traditional hammer & pin operating systems. Walther's QA is much like Glock's Safe Action, while their A/S offers a decocker and operates much like a conventional DA/SA system. Taurus has their SA/DA, a single action striker system with backup DA second strike capability. Those are but a few examples.

 

[MCgunner]

I refer to the Glock as "safe action" and I always quote it or at least the "safe" part. It's not DA and it's not SA, so it must be something else. I don't particularly like to call 'em "striker fired" because that's what I've always called certain single action guns that fire from a fully cocked striker and have no hammer. That's just me, though. I feel like calling it "safe action", a gun savvy person will know what I'm talking about. If I call it a striker fired gun, he might think I'm talkin' about a Davis or Jennings or something.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Another couple of pistols that are not technically DA are the Kahrs and the "DAO" Smith & Wessons. Both require the action of the slide to reset the trigger, either by racking it or firing a cartridge. If the hammer (S&W) or striker (Kahr) falls on a dud cartridge, they will be rendered inert and you have to eject the cartridge and start over. But, they have long, somewhat revolver-like trigger pulls, making them essentially or functionally DAOs. I look more at the trigger action of a given pistol, decide whether I like it or not and don't concern myself with technicalities.

 

[unspellable]

Action?

language and definitions do change over time, but not all change is for the better. The term "double action" properly means two modes of operation. Back when revolvers were first mae in which the trigger pull cockewd the hammer, they were referred to as "self cocking". Not too long after, there were revolvers that could be both thumb cocked and trigger cocked and the term "double action" was coined.

Today there is an unfortunate tendency to refer to a self cocking action as a "double action only" which is an oxymoron. This leads to confusion. The Glock is at half cock after the slide returns to battery with the trigger pull completing the cocking action, but it cannot be fired by pulling the trigger if the striker is uncocked.

Then there is my triple action Daewoo. Where we are clearly back to "triple action" meaning three modes of action.

 

[45auto]

They are called DAO just to simplify "how" the trigger "feels" IMO...using "old" terms that people can readily understand. And to separate them from the DA/SA style triggers, SA, etc.

"DAO" have longer trigger pulls than SA, or supposed to anyway. They are no longer "heavy" by the old standards of a DA revolver. Some are not even that long of a pull, or can modified otherwise.

IDPA ruling, IMHO, was foolish since the "effect/feel" of the XD's techincally single action trigger is the same as Glock's or Para LDA, etc...long trigger pull with the same level of "safety" as a Glock, LDA, DAO whatever.

 

[GRIZ22]

DA is one of the criteria for pistol importation set by the GCA68. It gives you 10 points of the 75 needed for importation. If you call your pistol DA and ATF agrees then you are ahead a big chunk in the points game.

A Glock 26 (and others) would not have enough points to be imported if it weren't considered DA. The 380 version of the same gun (Glock 28?) loses 7 points over the 9MM parabellum so is not allowed to be imported.

While the Glock action is different there was nothing else like it at the time. Glock didn't argue about it be categorized as a DA.

 

[peacemaker45]

language and definitions do change over time, but not all change is for the better. The term "double action" properly means two modes of operation. Back when revolvers were first mae in which the trigger pull cockewd the hammer, they were referred to as "self cocking".

I think double action is supposed to refer to how many separate actions are performed by one pull of the trigger. For example, the traditional double action revolver's trigger performed two actions; cocking and releasing the hammer. By contrast, a single action's trigger would only release the hammer, which had to be cocked by some other means. Two actions performed, vs. one. A DA/SA gun that uses both types of actuation without any change in what the user does. DAO refers to a gun in which either the pull does not change, or which has no means to cock the hammer manually, such as the shrouded hammer revolvers.

Summary: double or single action refers to number of tasks performed by pulling the trigger, not number of modes in which a gun can operate. As such, DAO is correct usage.

~~~Mat

 

[MPanova]

Don't forget about the new Taurus semi autos, The new 24/7 and Mil Pro's are SA/DA because they are alwasy single action unless a rounds fails to go bang then they revert to double action and the even newer OSS have a decocker so I guess you could call them DA/SA/DA ??

 

[unspellable]

DA?

Not so. When revolvers were first invented they had what today we would call a single action. At the time it was the only sort around so it was simply called the action. The next developement was a revolver cocked by the trigger and it was called a "self cocking" action. Next came revolvers that worked both ways and the term "double action" was coined. Two modes of operation, NOT to actions by the trigger. At the same time the term "single action" was coined.

Today we also have a triple action with three modes of operation.

It's an unfortunate fact that this sort of confusion arises, often due to ad copywriters. A couple of examples are in the area of phtography where we have "zoom" lenses that are not zooms, and "apochromatic" lenses that are not apochromats. It confounds the language so that if you wnat to talk about an apochrmatic lens you first have to spend ten minutes explaining you are talking about an apochrmat and not a psedo-apochromat.

If "double action" really meant two actions by the trigger, then what are you going to call my triple action?

 

[strat81]

IMO, unless you have "second strike" capability, it's not DAO or DA. As such, I consider my Glock SA. Of course, in a combat situation, I'm not going to keep trying to pull the trigger of any gun with a round that didn't fire the first time. Tap, rack, bang and go from there.

 

[ugaarguy]

Two modes of operation, NOT to actions by the trigger. At the same time the term "single action" was coined.

Right, so a DAO pistol is really a single action pistol, but the trigger pull performs two actions; and a single action pistol is single action and the trigger pull performs one action.

Glocks are DAO, Para LDA is DAO, S&W 642 is DAO. :banghead:

 

[Odd Job]

If the hammer (S&W) or striker (Kahr) falls on a dud cartridge, they will be rendered inert and you have to eject the cartridge and start over.

I call that SAO, like the Vektor CP1.

 

[ccmdfd]

Triple action?

I'm not following that one.

I know this gets debated a fair amount. I did find this on the web:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigger_(firearms)

Thanks
cc

 

[unspellable]

triple action

My Daewoo has a triple action with three modes.

1. Thumb cocked ala a 1911. It can be carried cocked or uncocked, locked or not in either mode. (Wouldn't carry cocked and unlocked any more than with a 1911.)

2. Self cocking, trigger pull cocks and fires, carried hammer down, locked or unlocked.

3. Cocked, hammer down. In this third mode the pistol is cocked but the hammer is down. Pulling the trigger raises the hammer but the pull is very light until the hammer is fully raised as the pistol is already cocked. Once the hammer is raised the remaining trigger pull is the same as when thumb cocked. Can be carried locked or unlocked.

My preferred carry is cocked, hammer down, safety on. The safety is located like a 1911 safety so it's quick and smooth to switch off.

 

[Soybomb]

Glocks don't do that. You have to rack the slide to cock the hammer. Now my Kel-tec P3AT is true double-action. Pulling the trigger cocks the hammer and then releases it.

Go pull the trigger on your keltec twice in a row without working the slide. Both guns are pre-cocked, but double action because pulling the trigger cocks the gun the rest of the way.

 

[sig226]

As Eldon says, they are getting by on a technicality and are officially considered double action. It is worth millions to Gaston. No police department would buy a single action duty gun these days. The S&W Plastic M&P is on an even more narrow technicality, but they are trying to give Glock a run for the money.

You don't see any departments issuing XDs, they did not try for the technical virgin, uh, double action status, got listed as single action by IDPA, and as a result are not considered by the city purchasing department.

Jim, the XD pistols are becoming very popular police sidearms here in South Florida, although you are technically correct. Many of our departments do not issue weapons. They provide a list of approved models and the recruit can choose the one he wants

 

[sig226]

If "double action" really meant two actions by the trigger, then what are you going to call my triple action?

Marketing.