Muzzle up or down? Why did the army change?

[matty-vb]

in the opinion of this soldier muzzle down at the low ready is much faster and effective than the muzzle up position with today's modern battle rifle/carbine. regular rifle stocks are faster muzzle up (years of pheasant hunting). just my $.02.

I would suppose that the change also comes from the locations of our wars. muzzle up would be the way to go in the rice paddies of Vietnam but low ready in the streets and alleys of today's battle arena. muzzle up works nowadays too though. just yesterday I pulled rear guard as our patrol made our way through flooded vineyards out in indian country early in the morning. with the M4's in the air, I couldn't help but think of every 'Nam movie I grew up watching!

 

[kk0g]

But, doesn't that make you vulnerable to a shove-the-barrel-down disarm?


-Matt

That is extremely easy to counter; drop to kneeling and pull the trigger. You can't do that with the muzzle up.

 

[HorseSoldier]

That is extremely easy to counter; drop to kneeling and pull the trigger. You can't do that with the muzzle up.

+1. The physiology of getting a muzzle back onto target if it is shoved down versus up is easier.

in the opinion of this soldier muzzle down at the low ready is much faster and effective than the muzzle up position with today's modern battle rifle/carbine. regular rifle stocks are faster muzzle up (years of pheasant hunting). just my $.02.

For actual carry and movement, not safing the weapon, low ready has the added benefit of not obstructing and portion of the carrier's field of vision and impairing situational awareness, which a high ready or port arms would.

We almost always have our rifles slung with a three point sling. It would be a little difficult to carry at port arms with a three point sling on.

While non-shooters who sign off on Big Army unit purchases seems to remain fascinated with them because the Rangers used (and discarded) them 15 years ago, I've always found it difficult to do much of anything with a Three Point Sling. Great for wandering around a FOB with no kit on, horrible to do anything in full battle rattle . . .

 

[crossrhodes]

Muzzle down

The only time I remember having our muzzles up was on the range it was for that purpose...the range. It made it easier for the PMI's to eyeball the area and keep track of shooters and safety for shooters at large because you had a mixed bag of POG's and grunts, also for Marines that only handled their weapon once a year for quals, ie POG's. The rest of the time it was muzzle up for all the reasons that have been posted. low ready, high ready...fire

 

[benEzra]

Quote:
> and you are less vulnerable to a shove-the-barrel-up disarm.

But, doesn't that make you vulnerable to a shove-the-barrel-down disarm?

It's easier to combat a muzzle-down hold by dropping and shooting than it is to combat a muzzle-up hold by levitating and shooting.

 

[crossrhodes]

My mistake

I ment to say Muzzle Down not up for anything then the range.

 

[leadcounsel]

Down makes more sense and is safer when doing most everything. If the barrel is up, you freqently point it forward, at people, when you transition it. It also goes forward when you bend down (if it's slung over your shoulder), and is pointed at aircraft flying overhead. And riding in aircraft your muzzle is down. Pointed upward, a ND or AD sends a round in the air somewhere .... And rifles now are more often carbines, carried at the low ready. Easier to go to the low ready from barrel pointed down then up.

The ground is usually the safest place to point your barrel in all circumstances - not so with the air.

However, for ceremonies and drill the barrel is often pointed skyward...

 

[mgmorden]

during the first few years of the Iraq war there were several hundred deaths and 1000;s of injuries related to "accidental discharge" which was later to be deemed as "negligent discharge" I believe this could have something to do with it

When I went through basic in 2003, we were to keep our rifles pointed towards the ground unless we were engaged in training or marching drills.

This sums it up completely for me. The main rule of firearms safety is to keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, because sometimes "stuff" happens. If the gun happens to go off unintentionally then as long as you were pointed in a safe direction, then no harm done.

If you're carrying pointed straight down to the ground, the bullet is going to typically plow into the dirt. Messy, and startling, but ultimately harmless. If your muzzle is pointed skyward however, there's no telling where that bullet is truly going. Even on a firing range it doesn't take a whole heck of a lot of holdover for the bullet's trajectory to go over the backstop.

Overall, I just see pointing down instead of up as far more safe.

 

[Tim the student]

during the first few years of the Iraq war there were several hundred deaths and 1000;s of injuries related to "accidental discharge" which was later to be deemed as "negligent discharge" I believe this could have something to do with it

Source?

 

[crossrhodes]

Muzzle down

I don't think I, or anyone else, every patrolled holding the rifle at port arms or muzzle up. Most of the time it was parallel with the muzzle pointed slightly down as we moved along the street.

 

[GRIZ22]

When you're training live fire in a shoot house that has a cat walk for observers and trainers to watch the show, muzzle up isn't a safe practice, it flags them. So for safety the muzzle down practice became SOP.


If you look at photos of guys actually on patrol or in comabt in Vietnam you'll see a lot of them carrying muzzle down. Not something that was policy or SOP but just something you found worked better.

 

[CathyGo]

Train as you fight is extremely applicable. We carried at low ready all throughout basic, ait, field training, deployment training, and now on deloyment. My personal set up is my rifle stock clipped to my shoulder with a carabiner and maybe 2-3 inches of 550 cord. No sling. I can use my right arm to briefly "cage" it against my body to do stuff and it sits vertical. Am I "flagging" my body? Sure, but the rifle isn't going to spontaneously fire. It's extremely fast to bring up to a target and doesn't get in my way.

I had to look up what port arms was. It's simply not used anymore.

As others have already pointed out a ND in a vehicle or aircraft is generally aimed at less important components with the muzzle down.

Whatever idiot that told you to rest a rifle with the muzzle in the dirt needs to be brought to the attention of their supervisor. Stupid advice like that will lead to damage of equipment and possible injury of a soldier.

Those of you that want to critisize our choice of slings need to get out of your armchair and hand a bunch of slings to a few different shapes/sizes of people wearing body armor. Some will choose the 3 point, some will take my carabiner(wolkhook) approach, and other will use a modified 2 point. It comes down to fitting the rifle to your body in a manner that is easily accesible and comfortable for them. Body armor alters the way the sling sits enough to make a difference with all the crap they have us wearing on them these days.

 

[Alexey931]

Concerning flexibility. Russian Field Manual written no less than fifty years ago mostly with SKS and AK-47 in mind is remarkably terse on carrying modes. It shows pictures of port arms and present arms, says that the magazine is to be inserted at all times and that while riding a truck the rifle must rest between your knees butt on the floor as you sit on a bench. That's all. No restrictions to worry about unless on parade ground.

It's either negligence or wisdom on the part of those writers. I suspect wisdom.

 

[rocky branch]

My area os VN was fairly heavily vegitated.
In "injun Country" your muzzle went where your eyes went.

I will never forget the last look on the face of a NVA troop who looked under a different bush than the one he was pointing at.

Sometimes I wonder that there were not more accidental shootings.
Guess that's why I avoid group shoots.

 

[earplug]

I asked a Soldier

I asked a soldier with over 20 years of experience and he told me the muzzle down was adopted due to the shoot house training that is more common today.
They have observers on the walls to watch the training/firing. Soldiers are trained to keep the weapons down instead of up so the observers are not put in harms way.
The veteran told me that in close combat or guarding battlefield prisoners or road block situations, the muzzle up is better due to the rifleman's having better control of the weapon if its grabbed by a bad guy.