Question about sweeping with the muzzle

[dovedescending]

So we all (hopefully) are very aware of where we point the muzzles of our weapons: on the range, at home when cleaning them, etc etc. But what about when your weapon is holstered?

Shoulder holsters generally hold the gun horizontally. Does that mean that if anybody stands behind you, you are negligently sweeping them?

I have a 10-month old daughter. She's crawling, and will probably start walking soon. She's at my feet half the time I'm home. Do I negligently sweep her everytime she clings to the outside of my right leg?

This thought has bothered me so much that not only do I secure my pistol before picking my daughter up, I make sure that the muzzle of my bedroom gun is safely pointed towards the outer wall, away from my wife, myself, and my daughter's room, even though it's in a lockbox and I leave an empty chamber in front of the barrel. My CCW gun is also secured pointed towards an outer wall, even if there isn't any magazine in it...

Thoughts?

 

[ljnowell]

I am sorta the same way. When I have a gun on my nightstand its always pointed in a way so that it is away from the rest of my house, where my son is. Storage in the safe, its every which way sometimes.

 

[blitzen]

I think that your thinking isn't wrong. I don't like being around people with shoulder holsters for just this reason.

 

[Steve in PA]

What if your walking up the stairs? Everyone behind/below you is being swept. What if you drop your wallet and bend over? Anyone behind you is swept. Claiming you don't like this holster or that style of holster is pretty silly.

Is your gun in a holster? Yes.

Is your finger on the trigger? No.

Is your gun suddenly going to go off by itself? No.

End of lesson.

 

[mnrivrat]

Perhaps the caution clock is wound a little tight . I get the muzzle of a cannon pointed at me every time I walk up the sidewalk to the courthouse, but for some reason it doesn't bother me.

I guess what I am trying to say is that from my perspective muzzle control is only part of the safety protocall . I trust in the other aspects of safty awareness and rules to protect me and others, when one can not always assure 100% compliance with a single safety issue.

At the shop (gun shop), there is no way you can be there every day without getting in front of the muzzle of a gun from time to time (in some cases I am looking down the muzzle with a bore light on the other end). In that case all guns are believed to be unloaded, and those that are loaded are secured in holsters and not brought out and messed with. When I pick up a gun to show it to anyone, I check to make sure it is unloaded - this applies to new guns as well as all others. They are not handled without being cleared first.

In other words there are other safety catches that cover the needs to make sure that people do not get hurt. In your case, the gun in your holster is in a safe mode - built into the gun and or engaged by you. You have to trust that the other safety protocalls will keep you, and the people around you, safe. Even a loaded gun will not go off all by itself just because it is pointed at you . Or - to put it another way - there are 4 (four) rules of safety that all work together to keep one safe in case one of the rules gets broken.

 

[mljdeckard]

I have asked the same question. Now I get asked the same question by my soldiers.

They four rules are "The four gun HANDLING rules". When it's holstered, you aren't handling it. One must be reasonable. Theoretically, all guns spend time pointing at something we don't want to destroy, in your vehicle, on the table for cleaning, etc. The four rules apply specifically when you are HANDLING the gun.

 

[geekWithA.45]

The purpose of concern about "sweeping" is to prevent something you care about from being the object of an unintended discharge.

It is when *HANDLING* armaments, for either administrative or combat purposes that the opportunity for such unintended discharge is at its highest, and those are the times to be concerned about sweeping people.

A handgun of modern design* in good repair will not discharge unless the trigger is actuated. A holster of competent design will intentionally prevent the trigger from being actuated once properly holstered. (And correct handling technique goes way out of its way to ensure that you don't blast your own buttocks off in this process)

Having correctly achieved the status of secure refuge provided by your holster, the orientation of your barrel in space ceases to be a significant concern.

That being said, there are a number of holster designs that present greater and lesser danger during the process of drawing or holstering.

Most people with small of the back holsters both arguably risk spine damage in a fall, and usually wind up pointing their guns at their kidneys when presenting or stowing their pieces.

Rear facing shoulder rigs offer the opportunity to sweep about 180 degrees worth of space during presentation and stow cycles, which is a lot of opportunity for mayhem in the event of an unintended discharge.


As for a nightstand gun, presumably in some state of readiness, with a kid in the house? As a dad, I decided the peace of mind afforded by a fast access pistol safe massively outweighs the 2.5 seconds it takes me to open it.




*And frankly, if you're carrying for defensive purposes, your piece had better be of modern, safe design and in good repair!

 

[Texas Gun Person]

I am confident my firearm just won't discharge in my pocket, or in its holster. Sweeping someone with my carry piece really is not something I worry about, or even think of. As long as nothing is touching that trigger... we'll all be fine.

 

[wilkersk]

Someone recently posted a video of a Glock being dragged behind a pickup down a dirt road.

I'm not a huge Glock fan. But, the point was, that pistol was cocked, and at no time did the action accidentally "go off".

The 4 rules of gun handling are to protect us from the weakest link in the weapons system. That weakest link ain't the gun.

 

[Bill_Rights]

From a safety point of view, the primary purpose of a pistol holster (or rifle scabbard) is to shield the trigger from accidental manipulation, in particular, PULLING IT. Secondarily, the holster pads the entire firearm so that if it is, for ex., dropped, the impact or rebound will be muted enough so that the firing pin or hammer won't bounce against the base of the cartridge in the firing chamber and set it off.

IF a pistol is holstered and IF the firearm is otherwise safe AND your hand is not near the pistol, THEN it is OK if the muzzle incidentally "sweeps" a target that you don't wish to shoot. Notice, I said "OK", not "ideal".

This opinion is a recognition of the fact that one of the reasons for the basic "laws" of safe gun handling is to assure those people watching you and aware that there is a gun present, that they don't have to worry - everything is safe. This opinion is widely held. For ex., it is held and practiced at the NRA Headquarters Range in Fairfax, Virginia (near where I live and where I sometimes shoot). In the environs of that NRA range (i.e., the lobby, waiting areas, observation windows, etc.), it is perfectly accepted to wear a loaded pistol holstered. BUT you may not draw it or even rest your hand on it else a "red shirt" (Range Officer or staffer) will politely correct you.

This aspect of respecting other peoples' awareness of the presence of a gun, AND giving them the comfort of letting them KNOW that the situation is safe, AND letting them determine for themselves that the situation is safe, is a MAJOR BIG DEAL. For ex., when I want to show off a gun to a friend in my house, here's what I do: 1) go unlock the locked safe, 2) take hold of the gun safely (i.e., pointing the muzzle in a safe direction), 3) pull back the bolt and make sure that the firing chamber is empty and that there is no magazine installed or that the magazine is empty, 4) walk to the room where the friend is (again, safely), 5) announce that I am entering the room with the gun, 6) immediately walk to the friend and hand him the butt of the gun, 7) point out to him the drawn-back bolt and the fact that the gun is unloaded, 8) walk away, letting him be in control of the gun.

NOTICE: Even though I KNOW that the gun is safe before I bring it in to his presence, I DO NOT presume to ask him to trust me (with, basically, his life!). I give him the due honor and courtesy of letting him check the situation out and control the gun.

In a strange sort of way, the obverse of this situation is:
a) You know you are carrying a loaded gun AND you know absolutely that it will not fire short of a 1000 pound bomb striking you (at which point it doesn't matter);
b) The other person does NOT know you are carrying a firearm (maybe a concealed carry situation or the baby at your feet);
c) Therefore, you are under no obligation to reveal the firearm and demonstrate its safety to the other person.

Yes, it would be better, in any and every situation, if you did not "sweep" the muzzle toward another person. But in a concealed carry situation or other situation in which other people are not aware of the firearm (AND YOU KNOW THAT IT IS SAFE), then you are relieved of the duty of courtesy and of giving the other person either an overt demonstration of safety or outright control of the firearm.

Does that help your thinking process?

 

[Nushif]

I'll agree with the safety clock being wound a bit tight.

There does need to be some serious perspective in teaching here, methinks ... because this issue has reared its head an awful lot. Blind obedience to one general rule is detrimental just as much as being lax is.

If we're breeding a bunch of paranoid mofos who are clearly not comfortable with carrying a gun it's just as detrimental to our 2A cause as breeding a bunch of careless idiots.

Remember to inject a dose of reality into both your teaching and learning.

 

[Oyeboten]

When I am carrying a Revolver, I never bother thinking about 'sweeping' while it is Holstered.

When carrying say, a Colt M1911, it is on my mind all the time...and or I wish to now and then assure myself the Safety is indeed 'on' anyway ( and one time, when I checked, it was not, so...)


Like that...for me.


If it is a worry, consider to carry a Double Action Revolver...then it need not be a worry any more.

 

[psyopspec]

If I unload a rifle and stick it in a serviceable hardsided case, then close it and walk around holding it by the handle, I'm carrying out the equivalent of the behavior in the OP. Consider that even with a traditional belt holser, if you are on the second floor of a typical American home you would be effectively flagging anyone and anything on the floor below.

However, when a handgun is in a quality, serviceable holster that covers the trigger guard, I consider that the same from a safety perspective as it being in a case or in a safe. Mljdeckard has it right; the rules of firearms handling no longer apply when you're not handling it.

 

[LoganDub8388]

I understand where you are coming from but heres the deal: a loaded, chambered HOLSTERED handgun is a safe weapon regardless of the configuration AS LONG AS YOU DONT PULL THE TRIGGER!!!!!!!! It matters not how the holster is configured or where it is on your body, as long as it is secured in a quality holster made for that handgun.

 

[searcher451]

This is one of the reasons why I have often resisted using a shoulder holster, despite the fact that at times and in certain dress situations, the shoulder holster provides an excellent solution to concealed carry. I'm more comfortable with a shoulder holster set-up and a pistol with a thumb safety, such as a Walther PPK. I'm far less comfortable with a shoulder holster and pistol with a decocker.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Shoulder holsters generally hold the gun horizontally. Does that mean that if anybody stands behind you, you are negligently sweeping them?

First, a quick recap of the Four Safety Rules:
1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until the sights are on target.
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

If the gun is simply sitting in the holster, it is not going to fire itself, and the rules do not apply. As soon as you put your hand on the gun the rules come into play. To some extent you may be in a brief violation of Rule Two. This can be minimized with proper drawing technique, i.e., by turning the gun as soon as it clears the holster, then extending your arm into firing position. But it usually takes a violation of at least two rules to have a AD/ND. In this case, if you paid attention to Rule Three, you are still OK.

 

[shockwave]

If it is a worry, consider to carry a Double Action Revolver...then it need not be a worry any more.

Principles about sweeping people are the same for revolvers and semi-auto pistols. There's no distinction there. Revolvers don't have safeties, so their handling requires extra care (as do non-safety autos). I think Haranguer has it right above.

After all, if I put a handgun - loaded or not - in a secure case, and then carry that case around, am I "sweeping" with it? Don't think so. You can't formally engage in the act of muzzle sweepery until your hand is on the grips and you are in position to pull the trigger. However, it still makes sense to store guns pointed in a safe direction, point them in a safe direction during cleaning, etc.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Perhaps the caution clock is wound a little tight

You say that like it's a bad thing. Frankly, when using a dangerous tool or machine there is no such thing as too much caution.

 

[earlthegoat2]

If you are in a gun store and all the guns in the cases are pointed at you, are you this squeamish then too?

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

With improper draw technique, in conjunction with violating Rules Two and Three, from a horizontal shoulder holster, you can also shoot yourself in the arm.

 

[BeerSleeper]

I agree with the fellow who said a holstered gun isn't being handled, and the rules don't apply. I treat my holstered weapons more like a carton of eggs. Don't bang/bump/or drop it. I still make reasonable attempts to be mindful of the muzzle direction, but I don't get bent out of shape about it.
For that matter, what about if you're carrying your pistol in it's original plastic case? Depending on which way I've grabbed the handle, inside the plastic case, the muzzle is pointing either forward, or backward. Or what about the unsold pistols in their cases on the shelf. You walk past that shelf, you may have just muzzle swept yourself 100 times walking past a 30 foot shelf.

Somewhere, you have to draw the line between reasonable, necessary caution, and unnecessary, excessive caution. It is not reasonable to be infinitely cautious.

I bought a buckmark at bass pro yesterday. I looked at about a half dozen different models before making a choice. Every time, the clerk checked the magazine, checked the chamber, and then muzzle swept me in the process of handing over the firearm. I guess if there's a trigger lock on it, muzzle etiquette no longer applies. I just swept him a time or two while assessing the feel of the firearm, and considered his rudeness and mine to have achieved balance.

 

[Flintknapper]

The Lone Haranguer wrote:

First, a quick recap of the Four Safety Rules:
1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until the sights are on target.
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

If the gun is simply sitting in the holster, it is not going to fire itself, and the rules do not apply. As soon as you put your hand on the gun the rules come into play. To some extent you may be in a brief violation of Rule Two. This can be minimized with proper drawing technique, i.e., by turning the gun as soon as it clears the holster, then extending your arm into firing position. But it usually takes a violation of at least two rules to have a AD/ND. In this case, if you paid attention to Rule Three, you are still OK.

Thank you Sir!

Finally someone that understands the "correct" method(s) of drawing from a horizontal shoulder rig.

I've had that discussion before too:

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31470&hilit=shoulder+holster+solutions

Shoulder holsters are much maligned by many folks (most of whom know nothing about them).


Flint.

 

[bigfatdave]

A handgun in good repair will not discharge unless the trigger is actuated. A holster of competent design will intentionally prevent the trigger from being actuated once properly holstered. (And correct handling technique goes way out of its way to ensure that you don't blast your own buttocks off in this process)

Having correctly achieved the status of secure refuge provided by your holster, the orientation of your barrel in space ceases to be a significant concern.

Best summary I saw.
Get; better holster, better gun, or, over it.

Now, a handgun on a nightstand while you sleep should be in a holster, or in a closed container. The last thing you want is to grab it with sleep-fingers and have the superb ergonomics of a handgun help" your index finger to the trigger.

 

[dovedescending]

Ouch, you guys are harsh.
No, I'm not squeamish in a gun store. I'm a little too excitd maybe, but not squeamish.

I'm just trying to find my sea legs, as it were. CCW is something I've done for a little over a year now, and my little girl has introduced a whole new element to my handling of firearms.

All that defensive post-posturing aside, this has been a helpful discussion to me. Thanks to all.

 

[Sgt_R]

I'm currently serving on a large joint base in Iraq. At a guess, I'd say that 80-90% of the people carrying pistols (Beretta M9) here are carrying them in shoulder rigs, primarily because it's so easy to transfer to various modes of dress (PT gear, ACU/ABU/DCU, flight suit, ec). I see a few thigh rigs in use, but not many.

To my knowledge, there has yet to be an AD of a holstered weapon on this base, and we're talking about many thousands of firearms carried daily. I stand behind these people in line all the time (at chow, for example) looking right down the barrel, and am not uncomortable in doing so.

R