Question about sweeping with the muzzle

[geekWithA.45]

I stand behind these people in line all the time (at chow, for example) looking right down the barrel,

That reminds me of a story. Back in the early 90's, before I really got involved in gunrights, I entered a crowded McHamburger joint for lunch. Parked outside was an armored truck. Every line was packed 10, 15 people deep, except for one.

There, being served, in a line all by themselves, were two of the hugest guys I've ever seen, both wearing colt pythons in shoulder rigs.

People edged away from them as if they were radioactive.

Me, I blessed my good fortune of having been raised in a town with more firearms than humans, and popped into line behind them. My colleagues were a little hesitant, until I whispered to them, "Ten feet away, you're a target. Two feet away, you're a wrestler."

 

[Zach S]

Rule 2 doesn't apply to holstered/racked/cased/shelved firearms IMO.

 

[BeerSleeper]

I think that's the best single line summary of this issue I've yet to read.

 

[Travis McGee]

Taken to the limit, the only way not to sweep somebody is to point all firearms straight up into space.

Whoops, we might sweep passing airplanes.

 

[1eyedwillie]

Many good points in previous posts. Some of this is a repeat:
1. Get enough gun handling practice to be completely familiar with your handgun.
2. Make sure you have a good holster made for that handgun which completely covers the trigger.
3. A useful thing for a "newbie" at CCW is to carry the handgun around the house for a while in the holster, unloaded but cocked until you mentally convince yourself it is not going to fire by itself. After totally convinced, you can carry fully loaded and holstered without so much worry.

 

[DeathByCactus]

1. Get enough gun handling practice to be completely familiar with your handgun.

This. Sounds like everything else has basically been covered. I routinely carry, pick up, and play with my best friends little girl. Many times while carrying also as I don't get time to remove it before I get tackled by hugs and waving arms.

The more comfortable you are with handling and carrying, the less you will be worried about a "safe" weapon sweeping. Unless your weapon is prone to lot's of AD's while in the holster. Or I guess unless you are too cautious.

 

[Cosmoline]

Some of you are treating the Four Rules as some kind of biblical text. Common sense applies to them. Otherwise you'd never be able to inspect a bore, let alone work on it. If the firearm is holstered, there is no "sweeping." It's holstered. To put it back in the holster, remove the holster and follow the rules while securing it. Then put the holster back on.

 

[benEzra]

If it is a worry, consider to carry a Double Action Revolver...then it need not be a worry any more.

My CCW is a double action semiauto. Works like a revolver.

Frankly, when using a dangerous tool or machine there is no such thing as too much caution.

Well, if caution becomes irrational, then it's arguably too much. An aircraft mechanic who refuses to walk anywhere near the intake or exhaust of a turbofan running at ground idle is being rationally cautious. A mechanic who refuses to walk in front of or behind the same engine while it's shut down and sitting motionless in a test stand is being irrational, and wouldn't be able to get much work done.

In the case of firearms, it is good to be supremely careful, but rationally so. There is such a thing as taking caution too far, with competing harms and unintended consequences often coming into play.

 

[Werewolf]

BenEzra said what I wanted to say and did it real nice. I'm not nice so when given half an opportunity speak my mind without engaging the polite gear first.

That said:

Geeez...

Now I know where range nazis come from.

Some of you guys really need to learn how to think.

 

[bmph8ter]

I bought a buckmark at bass pro yesterday. I looked at about a half dozen different models before making a choice. Every time, the clerk checked the magazine, checked the chamber, and then muzzle swept me in the process of handing over the firearm. I guess if there's a trigger lock on it, muzzle etiquette no longer applies. I just swept him a time or two while assessing the feel of the firearm, and considered his rudeness and mine to have achieved balance.

Good discussion so far; the quote above is why I'm uncomfortable going to gun shops or shows to handle guns I'm considering purchasing. I don't want to do something "wrong" and piss anyone off. You can guess how hard it makes if for me to go buy a handgun. Makes me feel like a dork too; like I have some sort of hang up. How should I proceed?

 

[jon_in_wv]

I was in a gun shop two days ago and I was kind of amazed the guy behind the counter kept sweeping the muzzle around the room and right at me. About two weeks ago the owner shot one of his employees in the stomach so you would think they would be a little more "aware".

 

[nitetrane98]

I'm amazed at some of the responses here. It seems to me that some have a thinly veiled primal fear of a gun. To have this fear is somewhat understandable in a person who is ambivalent, at best, to guns and at worst a full blown anti-gun person. I guess some use the immersion therapy method to cure there hoplophobia.

If one is worried about which direction their gun is pointing when it is safely holstered, and believes there is no such thing as a safe gun or any other tool one has to conclude that in the back of their mind lies the real bogeyman. That being a belief that an inanimate object like a gun could, indeed, actually fire of it's own volition.

I can only wonder what their thought process must be like when they have the gun in their hand.

 

[WardenWolf]

Sometimes you just have to leave well enough alone. If you're not handling a gun, and it's properly holstered in a holster that fits well, and the appropriate safety mechanisms are engaged, there's no chance it's going to go off. Granted, I do believe the only truly safe direction for a holstered pistol is DOWN. I don't care for shoulder rigs because, frankly, straps can come loose or get bumped off, and, in a shoulder rig, gravity is not your friend in keeping the pistol in your holster. At least with a vertical holster, the gun won't automatically fall out if the strap comes loose.

 

[mcdonl]

When I have a gun on my nightstand its always pointed in a way so that it is away from the rest of my house, where my son is. Storage in the safe, its every which way sometimes.

Just curious... why? Do you think it will just "go off" in the middle of the night? I position mine so that it will be in the ready position when I need it. I am not concerned about an AD in the middle of the night caused by a bed bug.

 

[Gouranga]

As a father of 4 little girls who carries CCW very frequently, a couple things:

1. It is a good thing to have awareness of what direction your weapon is pointing. I also get nervous when I know my holstered weapon is pointing directly at one of my kids. That being said, you need to keep it in perspective and cover that nervousness with knowledge. If there was a chance that my gun would simply discharge while holstered, I would not own it. If there is with yours, I would advise you get rid of it and get another weapon. When I got my gun that was a minor "question" i my head. I got the schematics of the trigger, safety, and striker mechanism and saw for myself, AD with my weapon, are going to happen only if I poorly mismanage my fingers around the trigger.

2. With your kids I would recommend as soon as they are old enough to understand, you make it crystal clear they are not to be grabbing at your weapon. My girls know i carry, they know where the gun usually is, they know they do NOT go grabbing at it. They also know they do not mention it while out in public.

3. When not in the holster, my gun is in the safe. I have a biometric one I can open in <3 seconds. With kids in the house, my decision was if the gun was not in my direct control, then it is in a safe. No exceptions. Which is why 99% of the time in my home I have it CCW in the holster.

Having your kids around them, is a good thing. My girls know what damage a gun can do, none of them are afraid of them. Some of their friends that have seen mine in the holster have freaked because they simply are not exposed to them outside of TV and TV teaches them 2 types of people have handguns, 1. Police, 2. Criminals

 

[ny32182]

As always, you need to apply common sense to any given situation. "4 rules" make nice guidelines, but like any other set of rules/laws, they cannot be the best or only approach 100% of the time.

If you are under the impression that your modern, maintained pistol will fire itself, especially when unloaded, you need to spend more time handling and shooting it until you are more confident with how it works. Of course you need to also be using a good holster that entirely contains the trigger and prevents anything foreign from entering the trigger guard.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

The reason many ranges and training classes disallow shoulder and crossdraw holsters is not because of the carry position, but because of the possibility of "sweeping" others during the draw if the technique is incorrect. Here would be an excellent use of a laser sight - you can see exactly where the muzzle points.

 

[oldfool]

You say that like it's a bad thing. Frankly, when using a dangerous tool or machine there is no such thing as too much caution.

yes ma'm

a lot more could be said about that, but would just invite more dissent, or worse
there are things in life more important to worry about than whether or not you can outdraw John Wesley.. win, lose, or draw
some part of which applies to who it is that you worry about more than you worry about yourself, and knowing that of all the likely bad things that can go wrong (and very well might), none are worse than things you choose to control that do not have to go wrong, and should not, but can
getting out of bed every morning implies risk, but only you are responsible for the risks you take, no matter the reasons, fair or foul
some people do live lives with everyday risks higher than most of us will ever have to endure
for those who really do not, it it not foolish to ponder such questions
it is neither fear nor foolishness that prompts such questions
there is no substitute for awareness and no excuse for complacency, no "overs" allowed

on ALL gun forums, a "most oft cited opinion" is that it is not about the "probability", it is about the "consequences of the possible"
true words
but those words swing both ways

the 4 rules are GREAT
but there are no magic calibers, no magic guns, and no magic rules
there is no magic
there is only you, and your own willingness to question yourself, because if you do not, too few others will

OP is welcome to shoot with me and mine (and so are you ma'm)
none of which is about what others might consider prudent concern, or foolish fears... but none of it is about "chant and don't worry, be happy", either

PS
yeah, well ok, I just did say and invite all "that"
lock-n-load

 

[oldfool]

no.. in case it was not clear (probably not)
I am NOT saying it is wrong to carry cocked and locked or Glocked
NOT saying wrong to carry horizontal
I am NOT saying to not believe in and religiously practice the magic 4 rules
(they are really good rules, and real reliable)

but finger advice and holster advice is no substitute for thinking about what you do, and a poor excuse for not worrying about people who matter most to you, and no excuse at all for telling others to not worry about such
nice guns are real hard to come by
nice family, you only get one shot

but I have already exceeded my pompous allowance for one day, so that's it for me

be well, shoot well, be safe, live long, be happy, worry a little every now and then, but not too much

 

[jon_in_wv]

When I have a gun on my nightstand its always pointed in a way so that it is away from the rest of my house, where my son is. Storage in the safe, its every which way sometimes.

Just curious... why? Do you think it will just "go off" in the middle of the night? I position mine so that it will be in the ready position when I need it. I am not concerned about an AD in the middle of the night caused by a bed bug.

Does it make more sense to have a weapon that you may hastily grab, in the middle of the night, half asleep, pointed at you or someone else you love? It won't go off by itself but it seems to me it makes a lot of sense to have it pointing a safe direction anyhow.

 

[a-sheepdog]

I applaud your firearm safety. I say job well done.

 

[Warhawk83]

If you are in a gun store and all the guns in the cases are pointed at you, are you this squeamish then too?

Depends on which gun store I go to. Idiots need jobs too.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Oldfool,

From the moment I stepped foot on the farm I was told, usually in great detail, how various items and animals could hurt or kill you. One of the things my Dad is very proud of is that there has not been a fatal accident on the farm since 1875. Needless to say caution is something of a family trait.

On the other hand, we all have a God given right to decide how much risk of death or harm we want to assume (despite the laws and regulations passed by the nanny state.) I, for one, would never ask or demand persons forgo that intrinsic right. However, that right does not give them license to put myself or my children to assume the same risks. Aircraft mechanics choose to assume the risks of working on jet engines, more power to them. However, should they bring their work home and start up a turbine in their garage beside my house we are going to have a problem. Stock car drivers assume the risk of driving 'aggressively' on the track and again, more power to them. Should they force me off the road on 114 or I-65 I will do my very best to get the plate number and if necessary file suit against the prosecutor to have his privilege of using public highways removed. If I discover I have a weapon's business end pointing at me I would consider it an act forcing me to accept possibly deadly risk without my consent. I don't know about West Virginia but in Indiana we have a highly descriptive and profane term for people like that.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I assume you are talking to me. maybe somebody on God's green earth can tell me what the heck you are talking about. I think its safe to say that whatever you are talking about has nothing to do with anything I ever said.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Rule 2 doesn't apply to holstered/racked/cased/shelved firearms IMO.

I agree completely.

This comes up often, especially the argument that someone wearing a shoulder holster is "sweeping" everyone behind them.

The important thing to remember about the 4 rules as they were envisioned is that they are part of a SYSTEM, not meant to stand alone.

If all 4 rules are in place, and 1 rule is broken for whatever reason, the other 3 prevent a tragedy.

Thinking of each rule on it's own as being inviolable is not the way to do it. The system works as designed but remember that, it's a system.

Also (and this is the point in this thread) keep in mind that when Cooper made the 4 Rules, they were the "4 Rules of Safe Gun HANDLING" meaning that they were rules to be employed when the firearms were in the hands of a fallible human.

Sitting on a nightstand untouched, or in a safe, or in a shoulder holster, the firearms are not being "handled" so it is not necessary to apply the 4 rules.

Proper firearm and holster design are all that matter in those case where the gun is not being handled.