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"Muzzleloading" New from the Shot Show

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by Malachi Leviticus Blue, Jan 24, 2020.

  1. Stubert

    Stubert Member

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    Traditions says $26.99 for a 10 pack of fire sticks. That's crazy, it's $2.69 per shot just for powder? Just plain dumb. How is it a muzzle loader when it is charged from the breech? Get one now before they get discontinued, Gonna be a collectors item, just like the muzzle loader that used an electric spark to ignite the powder. :thumbdown:
     
  2. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    1. A Traditions video clearly states that the bullet is loaded down the bore until it hits a shelf inside of the barrel, so it cannot be loaded from the breech.
    And the shelf provides a fixed starting point every time.

    2. The video also mentions that one safety factor is that the fixed charge means that the gun cannot be overloaded due to error from hand loading the powder.

    3. Because CVA came out with that new Paramount rifle with the patented vari-flame ignition, Traditions probably felt the need to invent something that had even more cutting edge technology.
    Except one is a break action that is overall easier to load while the other is a bolt action that is probably built for accuracy but is more difficult to load.
    The new powder may be what draws some folks to the Nitro Fire if indeed it's a new cleaner powder that provides good accuracy.

    https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/rifles/cva-paramount-muzzleloader-rifle-pr3503n.html

    Just like everything else with muzzle loading, products can offer some advantages and disadvantages.
    There's been all kinds of muzzle loader design gimmicks ever since they were first invented generations ago.
    I didn't see much smoke exit the muzzle of the Nitro Fire after being fired in the video, at least not shown by the camera.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  3. Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave Member

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    Illegal in ALL states that specify a "muzzle loader is loaded from the muzzle". Legal in states where the season is considered "primitive" and uses a single shot rifle.
    Traditions is (imho) pushing the limit on the "wording of the law" and further..., is ignoring case law. Because while the wording in a state may be vague enough for Traditions to think they can get away with this product OR get an easy fix, they are relying on the idea that the bullet alone is still loaded from the muzzle...
    ..., Except IF they checked a lot of the states where they think it's "legal", they may find that in the past, people have been caught using breech loading shotguns, cutting down the shotshell so that it only holds powder, and stuffing a slug in a cup down the barrel on top of that....claiming it was a muzzleloader. (OR putting a slug in a cup into the barrel and then loading in the shotshell with powder behind it and claiming they loaded it all from the muzzle ;))

    Well IF the courts held that because it was an open breech, it was not a Muzzleloader, then the Traditions product would still not be legal. In spite of the wording in the law as the case law also impacts the full body of the law.

    Not to mention as the interviewer said...you can't develop a load.

    LD
     
  4. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    From The Hunting News:

    "For instance, Ohio defines a muzzleloader as such.

    MUZZLELOADING RIFLE AND MUZZLELOADING SHOTGUN means a primitive weapon that is loaded exclusively from the muzzle and has a permanent breech plug.
    When the plug is removed the gun is rendered inoperable, or incapable of firing modern-day ammunition.
    2019-2020 Ohio Hunting and Trapping Regulations

    The part which states “loaded exclusively from the muzzle” may prove problematic and make the Nitro Fire illegal for use during muzzleloader season at least in Ohio.

    Federal addressed this issue as follows

    “Research conducted by Federal Ammunition shows that many states define a muzzleloader by the requirement of loading the projectile down the muzzle manually.
    By this definition, many states will allow the FireStick to be legal for hunting big game during their muzzleloader seasons.
    However, please check your states regulations and contact them with any questions.
    We are actively engaging with state game and fish departments to educate them on this new and innovative product.” "--->>> https://thehuntingnews.com/traditio...AtzGM7pRK-fpPwZl7JhjCr-QbNAoBl-3uPrLHaEZ-0PTM

    The CVA Electra was probably also illegal in more states before it was introduced, and then some states made allowances for it.
    It's hard to predict if more states will end up allowing the Nitro Fire for ML hunting or not.
    But many states probably allow its use during centerfire rifle hunting season which some folks already do use their muzzle loaders during.
    And there are also other large hunting destination states and countries to consider since not all new products are developed simply for the average American BP hunter.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  5. Stubert

    Stubert Member

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    New York regulations say a muzzleloader is a firearm, loaded from the muzzle, shooting a single projectile with a min. bore of .44. The way I read it they may be illegal in N.Y. also.
     
  6. dave951

    dave951 Member

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    I believe that's called a Sharps..... just sayin.....
     
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  7. red rick

    red rick Member

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    If it doesn't leave a crud ring like T7 and ignites more reliably than BH209 it might have a market . I like being able to adjust my powder charge though , for the best accuracy , so not high on my list .
     
  8. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    It seems that Traditions is also trying to sell their Smackdown Carnivoir bullets in conjunction with the Nitro Fire rifle.
    They have a special Ridgeback sabot that are proprietary to Berry's Bullets who they must have an exclusive marketing agreement with.
    The Carnivore Bullets are plated and seemingly identical to Berry's Blue Diamond Bullets except for their color and name.
    Both come in weights of 250, 275 and 305 grains.
    Traditions seems to like making marketing agreements with other companies to limit anyone else from selling the same bullets and sabots, and apparently Fire Sticks too.
    That seems to be how they try to stay competitive with CVA and all of their different types of PowerBelt bullets.

    1. https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/category/smackdown-bullet-series

    2. https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/traditions-smackdown-carnivore-bullets-50-cal-bullets.html

    3. https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-50-250gr-muzzle-ldr

    Carnivore Series.png traditions-smackdown-carnivore-bullets-mz-sabot-bullets-50-cal.jpg 20180820165119_MuzzleLoader.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
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  9. Aim1

    Aim1 Member

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    BH209 wasn't reliable foe you?
     
  10. red rick

    red rick Member

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    No , it cost me a buck this year with a hangfire , in my CVA Accura V1 , using CCI 209 magnum primers and a modified breech plug . I will not use it in that gun again , I don’t care how easy it reloads after a shot . This was a special buck for me . It would have been the first buck taken on my land at my new house .
     
  11. Bill Raby

    Bill Raby Member

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    Its just another gimmick for the guys that want another hunting season but don't want to actually use a muzzleloader. Next year they will probably come out with a muzzleloader that needs batteries.
     
  12. Malachi Leviticus Blue

    Malachi Leviticus Blue Member

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    At first glance, my curiosity was piqued thinking that "Fire Stick" charge could be interesting if it can be reloaded, but it appears that reloading it is not likely.
    It also occurs to me that since the "Fire Stick" is a factory loaded charge that Federal should be able to develop a smokeless charge that is safe, tested and repeatable if they wanted to.
     
  13. Doc7

    Doc7 Member

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    How do y’all expect to load a bullet from the breech? You think that Firestick has enough strength to jam a bullet down the lands and grooves? I doubt it. Loading with a start won’t work either, how would you know where to stop? There’s no way this is intended for bullet loading from the rear.
     
  14. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    That's the same reason why I got into tradition muzzle loading.
    First I became a hunter, then I got involved in muzzle loading because I wanted another deer hunting season.
    I don't see any difference in the reason, besides that the state regulations were changed that first mandated that the muzzle loader be a design from before a certain date, and that only 1 power scopes could be used.
    Then they began incorporating more modern developments including higher power scopes into the regulations, as they moved BP season later from Sept. to December.
    The first fast twist reproduction guns had traditional designs and were intended for conicals or sabots.
    And I would also add that if anyone here has ever read about the Whitworth and other long range civil war era traditional muzzle loaders, they can shoot circles around most all of the modern designs.
    So there's really no reason to criticize the reason to buy or use a modern inline.
    In my state, we can't hunt with a centerfire rifle on state land, only on private land.
    We're a state land shotgun state and muzzle loader season is the only opportunity when most folks without 10 acres of land can have the opportunity to hunt with anything similar to a centerfire rifle.
    In that respect inlines are a form of hunting democracy, just like in the old days when only landowners could vote in elections until voting was made universal.
    Now hunters are allowed more equality without regard to how much land that they own.
    And who needs a Whitwoth or similar traditional gun that can cost thousands of $$$$ and not be as user friendly or able to mount with a modern scope as easily.
    It entices the dwindling nymber of hunters and helps control the overpopulation of deer that led to the explosion of archery and its extra long archery hunting seasons.
    And some states are allowing crossbows and airguns just to keep people hunting.
    The Nitro Fire makes it easier and possibly safer to use, to load and unload for those who can afford it and want the advantage of simplicity without all of the muss and fuss of a traditional gun.
    More power to those who can afford it and can benefit from it.
    I'm sure that the car drivers appreciate not crashing into deer on the roadways and there's less chance to contract Lyme disease in this area, help stop crop damage etc...
    Personally I hope that more states change their regulations so that a legal muzzle loader is defined as one that only the projectile needs to be loaded from the muzzle.
    If the states want to allow true breech loaders than that's okay with me too since it creates new opportunities and reasons for people to go hunting.
    We need more hunters not less, which hunting participation has been trending downward in many states for years now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
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