MV for 357 125 gr JHP?

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I'm working up a load for 357 and have hit just under 1500 fps using 19 gr 2400 and 125 Rem JHP and 550 primers out of a 686 4".
The hottest load I find in my manuals is 19.5. The cases eject without trouble and primers all look good. My question is how much past 1500 have some of you gone with this combination and how much powder did you use?
Tomorrow I think I will try another 1/2 grain and see if the accuracy holds and I don't get tight cases.

I also shot some 158's that are pretty tight to eject and the primers are dimpled some, the load is 14.7 gr 2400 550 primer and 1386 avg MV.
It is under what the max shows but ejection is tough, I will try them tomorrow in a Ruger Black Hawk. This load was a surprise as I thought I could get a little more fps with it before the pressure got to high.
What top velocities are you all getting with 158gr JHP's?

I have mostly shot lead for reloads in my 357's at lower velocities so this is my first go at pushing the cartridge.
 
Pushing those bullets at those speeds is going to wreak havoc on the forcing cone. The hot gases contain unburned powder granules that hit the forcing cone at high velocity and WILL cause erosion and carburizing of the metal. I have damaged Ruger revolvers from doing what you're doing and have seen plenty of other guns where it was done. But don't take my word for it, read Kuhnhausen's Ruger revolver shop manual. He has plenty of photographs of Ruger revolver barrels that were seriously abused and ruined by reloaders pushing the envelope. I destroyed a nice GP 100 barrel by feeding it hot 125 gr. loads in only a couple of months. The forcing cone looked just like someone took an oxy-acetylene cutting torch to it. Use heavier bullets and don't try to go for max velocity if you want your barrels to last. As far as watching for pressure signs, by the time you can see or feel any difference you're already well into the danger zone. Almost everybody goes through a stage of pushing the envelope when they begin reloading and them realize there is no point. Sure it's fun to hear the blast and see the fireball but you're just going to wear stuff out faster. Even the finest steel will not hold up very long to that kind of heat and pressure. Of course if you don't mind replacing your guns every year then go right ahead.
 
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Forum rules dictate that if you are going to post over max load data that you should add a disclaimer to it naming it as such. I have yet to find a load for 2400 and a JHP that is over 17.5 gr. 19 grains is heads and shoulders above that.
 
These 125gr are not plinking loads but I am rather shooting for what is mid to high velocity production defense loadings.
I want a couple hundred premium defense loads to just keep for that time we hope never comes and for personal carry.
If I'm not mistaking the 125gr load is thought of as a better than average fight stopper so I am looking to at least match what the popular factory load is.
Thanks for your reply but just because one hasn't ruined a gun with their reloads doesn't mean they are nubes to the practice. I have been reloading for 35 yrs and have yet to destroy a gun. If you have a round count and some load specifications that are usable I would be grateful.
I am well past the blast and fireball stage of life and am more interested in terminal performance.
 
Look at the Speer manual I believe it shows 19.5, Sierra shows 19. I am not near my reloading shop at this moment but I can verify editions when I get around there, I believe the Nosler book shows 17.5 as max, I started at 16 using the Nosler data and had lower velocities than they published and found the Speer and Sierra data to be closer to my actual results.
My OP clearly states that I am below published data so I don't understand your claiming I am breaking forum rules, keep looking you will find it.
 
Using 125 XTP's and the max load of H-110, from the Hodgdon website, I have got just over 1700 FPS from a 6" GP100

JIM
 
The first question that comes to mind, WHY? Anything you shoot won't be any deader with a bullet traveling 1450 fps or 1500 fps. Also, accuracy usually falls off when you push the velocities so high. The charge weights you posted are above anything I've ever seen in any manual but you state your manuals do list those loads so I won't argue that point.

As for matching factory velocities for SD, 125gr Remington Golden Saber ammo is rated @1220 fps, Winchester Super-X is rated @1370 fps and some of the "designer" loads will approach 1600 fps but I doubt those numbers.

If you want to safely achieve more velocity from that bullet weight you will need a different powder. Give W296/H110, Lil'Gun or even 300 MP a try.

Like said above, it is better to stick with a bullet that heavier than 125gr if you don't want to damage your revolvers.
 
x, you don't need to use magnum primers with 2400 powder. cci500s will do nicely.

murf
 
Go for it. You obviously know a lot more about handloading than any of us.
 
x, you don't need to use magnum primers with 2400 powder. cci500s will do nicely.
Click to expand...
What he said.

Mag primers may well cause pressure spikes with 2400.
If you are pushing the limit with it, use standard primers.

rc
 
I did a little checking after seeing advice here that I wasn't expecting and didn't jibe with what I believe to be true.
Midway states published velocities for their ammo and it was easy to compare.
Fed 357B 1450
Hornady Critical Defense 1500
Black Hills 1500
Buffalo Bore 1700
Winchester PDX 1325
Cor Bon DPX 1300
Reminton Golden Saber 1220
Reminton Express 1450
Together with reading reviews it seems that the 1450-1500 that I am after is within the norm for popular defense velocities, the mid range loads seemed popular with buyers using smaller 5 shot guns, one comment stated that the Cor Bon wouldn't cycle a Desert Eagle.
My conclusion is that I will probably stick with the 19gr load which shoots well from my heavier guns and reduce down to the mid range for J frames like that of my daughters.
Another observation that I noticed on the Midway site is that much of the popular defense loads are out of stock which leads me back to the reason for this exercise in the first place.
Murf thanks for the reply, I used 550's because they were denoted in my reference books and I have them in stock.
As for my knowledge of reloading, I think what little research I did generated much more validity to my endevor than some of the incorrect and unsubstantiated replies from some posters.
I got what I need from this, if helpful info can be gleaned by keeping it open I'm all for it. If it just continues to draw unreliable comments then shut it down.
 
x,

the 19.5gn load data is from the speer #11 manual (25 year old data). the current speer manual says 17.5gn.

the most i ever got out of my 6" 686 revolver was 1600fps. that is using the older (higher pressure) data.

this load shook apart the gun, and enlarged the firing pin hole (which tied the gun up all the time). had to send it to s&w for repair. works fine now.

what i'm getting at: you are at max now (1500fps from a 4" barrel), expect accelerated wear of the gun, this load does flame-cut the forcing cone and the topstrap more than any load i am aware.

other than that have fun with it!

murf
 
the 19.5gn load data is from the speer #11 manual (25 year old data). the current speer manual says 17.5gn.

the most i ever got out of my 6" 686 revolver was 1600fps. that is using the older (higher pressure) data.

this load shook apart the gun, and enlarged the firing pin hole (which tied the gun up all the time). had to send it to s&w for repair. works fine now.

what i'm getting at: you are at max now (1500fps from a 4" barrel), expect accelerated wear of the gun, this load does flame-cut the forcing cone and the topstrap more than any load i am aware.

other than that have fun with it!

murf
Click to expand...

Exactly what I was getting at, Speer listed 17.5 last time I looked for a 125gr. I cant see the point in tearing apart a gun loading like that just to gain an extra 75fps or 100fps.
 
Take published velocities for 357 mag factory ammo with a huge boulder of salt!

If you're expecting to match the padded pressure barrel on the box numbers with a handload from a real gun you're setting yourself and your revolver up for a fail
 
I have never used 2400 in .357 Mag. I really like H110 with 125 grain XTP's right at 19.5 to 21.0 grains. Sometimes I load them at 22.0 grains but the powder burns my face, or maybe its the barrel. Either way, I am with you X in the hot load .357 mags. It never hurts to have a few boxes because they are about $40 a box and that just ain't happening. If you get the chance, shoot one into a gallon of water with a wet phone book backstop. They look devastating!
 
There is little gain in pushing those bullets that hard. The forcing cone isn't the only wear and tear you will introduce to that firearm. If you like magnum loads switch to H110 / 296. It is a slower burning powder than 2400 and is intended exclusively for magnum full house loads. That powder (H110 /296) will maintain a more predictable pressure range, as it is designed exclusively for full house magnum. 2400 is far more flexable than H110 / 296 in that you can reduce powder charge with fewer concerns, but on the upper end of the load spectrum it is less predictable and prone to spiking.

GS
 
I'm pretty happy with the load I finally settled on. Shoots good and is consistent in velocity and pretty much matches the 357B which is what my goal was.
I am still somewhat stumped as to the information 1976-1990 and what some say is in current publications of the same sources regarding charges and primers except that there is probably a lawyer attached to it.
The old data is pretty accurate with the exception of Nosler and in that case I must say that it is an anomaly since I regard their rifle data quite highly.
I haven't bought a new manual in 10 yrs and only then because of new cartridges that I had no data on so changes in already published data slips by me.
I buy powder in bulk and while it has limitations 2400 has proven useful for the most part, I don't doubt that there are better choices for a specific application but overall it works for me.
As far as taking published data on factory loads, the only way I know to prove one way or another is to test and compare if you are a skeptic. I tried the only factory ammo that I had to fit in my guns (Rem. 125+P) published claim of 945 to be very much in line with what my chronograph showed so while it is but one test it was as claimed by the manufacturer. If I find some 357B I will try it as well.
In closing I would suggest that those claiming damage caused by high end loads at least accompany such claims with some helpful info regarding their measured velocity, number of rounds and other information that could be used to make a choice beside high velocity bad it wrecked my gun.
My second post explained that these would not be my typical range loads and would be set aside and shot very little but more to set aside some ammo that is currently harder to get and priced at a premium.(much like the Balistic Tips I load in 223 vs bulk HP's) They shoot well and have considerably less recoil than the heavier loads that I shoot but I am still working on a mid range load for J frames and my old m19's 1200 fps is my goal there.
 
The problem with "matching" published factory loads is they don't state what type gun or barrel fired from. A few exceptions noted: Buffalo Bore. Many may be using test barrels.

My experience with hot 357's mimics others findings. I have chrono'd a lot of factory loads from my 6" GP100, Speer GD, Hornady XTP, Rem JSP/JHP, Federal and Magtech 125gr ammo.
The highest I recorded was 1525fps.

16.2gr of 2400 meets that. 17.0 beats it pretty good, 17.5 is into the upper 1680's-1710fps.

19.0 unimaginable. Heck, 17.5 out of a j-frame???

Best wishes, safe loading.
 
In closing I would suggest that those claiming damage caused by high end loads at least accompany such claims with some helpful info regarding their measured velocity, number of rounds and other information that could be used to make a choice beside high velocity bad it wrecked my gun.
Click to expand...

Its not the velocity, its the pressure. If you want to overload fine, I do it all the time in my Ruger Blackhawk in 45 colt. Just understand that just because you found a factory load that makes that fps, it doesnt mean yours is safe because its going that speed, thats ludicrous.
 
I don't have a ballistics lab and I doubt anyone yet commenting does or they would have furthered their data.
I understand the velocity, pressure correlation and the fact different powders will have different results.
It has been pointed out that I am in some cases using data that is 25 yrs old but it is from published data and no one yet has been able to explain the modern difference, this data predates one of the models of guns I am using I believe but that model was made as an answer to a heavy diet of high vel loads if I am not mistaken. (the 686)
Not a single round has been fired without following accepted practices of incremental increases within published parameters using data from at least 3 major reloading companies and a chronograph on my end to keep it within those parameters.
I recently read of a forum member who claimed to shoot a J frame revolver loose enough to require factory attention in 2000 rds of +P 38's , and a couple on this thread have claimed damage with 357's but no round count was given. These loads from hell :evil: will only be used in a couple 686's, a 66 and maybe some Black Hawks and it will be done sparingly so I figure the guns will long outlast me and my kids who can all read will be able to see their purpose and intent on the label.

16.2gr of 2400 meets that. 17.0 beats it pretty good, 17.5 is into the upper 1680's-1710fps.

19.0 unimaginable. Heck, 17.5 out of a j-frame???
Click to expand...
18 grs currently runs 1445 with 12fps hi/lo spread, that's pretty dam consistent.
who ever said anything about 19 from a j frame, my goal 1200 for shooting in model 19's and J frames, read it again:banghead:

I still say, show me where I have over stepped published data or even a case in which that data failed in a modern gun causing it to self destruct.

My experience with hot 357's mimics others findings. I have chrono'd a lot of factory loads from my 6" GP100, Speer GD, Hornady XTP, Rem JSP/JHP, Federal and Magtech 125gr ammo.
The highest I recorded was 1525fps.

16.2gr of 2400 meets that. 17.0 beats it pretty good, 17.5 is into the upper 1680's-1710fps.
Click to expand...

Is this something you have proven to yourself through "careful" loading or just what you read? I can tell you that 17.5 will go not even close to that in any 6" barrel I have. Be careful of how critical you are since my testing stopped at around 1500 and dropped back 50, it sounds as though you went way over the hill at 1700+ the only 2400 data I have seen in that relm is the incorrect Nosler data showing 1800 fps with 17grs. which exceeds the closest max load of 1555 and 19.5 grs in the 1987 Speer manual.
Safe Loading;)
 
One error you're making is to assume that bullets and powder lots used to work up 25+ year old data are the same as they are today.

Saami maximum pressure ratings are Gospel with load maunals. If a load was reduced from an earlier edition one of two things happened.

1 SAAMI reduced the pressure ceiling

2 the load was exceeding Max allowable pressures.

Now ask yourself this. has 357's pressure rating been reduced in the past 25 years?
 
Come on RW you can't have your cake and eat it too, and a Jframe no less


Take published velocities for 357 mag factory ammo with a huge boulder of salt!

If you're expecting to match the padded pressure barrel on the box numbers with a handload from a real gun you're setting yourself and your revolver up for a fail
Click to expand...

Some velocities for a few miscellaneous factory loads from a 3" bbl

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=664754
Click to expand...



UPDATE:

I chronied some more of the 125 sjhp ammo from the first post only this time from a 5" s&w m60These things rock from a longer barrel. The 5 shot string went as follows

1540,1516,1545,1571,1557 feet per second!

This pushes over 650 ft lbs from a 125g bullet.
Click to expand...

I'm quite happy with 1450 for my 4" thank you.
 
I don't think you grasp how hot the 125g rem SJHP load is.

There's no way I'd feed a revolver that wasn't a ruger a steady diet of these if then. I'm also telling you from experience that I haven't been able to match them with a handload within published data.

Again just because the velocities match doesn't mean pressures do.

Mid 1300 fps will make a 357 defense load do everything it needs to. There's no reason to handload a stash of STHF ammunition that's so hot the gun is destroyed by the time you get to the bottom of the ammo can
 
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