my 1860 army issues

[jason41987]

i have an 1860 army.. uberti made, but mine came with the blued steel 1851 navy grip... anyway, it wasnt locking up very tight at all, there was a lot of play in the cyinder... so, i looked carefully into the issue, and i found the hand was bent.. you know, the piece that lifts the cylinder to turn it...

so i replaced this piece.. and well, it rubs on the inside of the frame, so i'll have to file the edge down a bit later to smooth it up more.. but, now it locks up incredibly tight, absolutely no play... but heres whats curious...

before, with the old hand, id pull the hammer back a certain distance and it would lock.. however, i could continue to pull the hammer back a short distance past full cock... after the new hand was installed theres absolutely no more travel in the hammer after it reaches full cock

is this a good thing?.. should i want to not have any further travel in the hammer after it reaches full cock?

 

[robhof]

robhof

The condition you describe is what it should be, but rarely is in the Italian clones. The way it was originally is how many come from the factory. Your hand sounds like a perfect fit, many hands are too long and require fitting so as to not over-rotate the cylinder.

 

[Old Fuff]

No it isn't a good thing, but this is going to get involved.

At the Colt factory during the 19th century when they were building the original cap & ball revolvers; the final assembler would pick a trigger where the tip was long enough so when the hammer was pulled all of the way back against the backstrap the trigger would drop into the full-cock notch. This was important because the backstrap would prevent the hammer from revolving further.

Then the hand was fitted so that it would rotate from one cylinder notch to the next one, and no further. This set-up prevented the tip of the hand, the ratchet teeth on the cylinder, and the bolt notches in the cylinder from becoming battered - as would be the case if the hammer could try to rotate further after the bolt had locked the cylinder.

Last the cylinder bolt was timed so that the cylinder could start turning quickly after the hammer started to be cocked, and be released in the leed groove just short of the bolt notch in the upcoming chamber.

Clear as mud?

 

[jason41987]

yeah, but as i said the hammer doesnt go back any further anymore after its locked, nor does the cylinder wiggle.. its completely solid now

 

[45 Dragoon]

Your tight lock up may not be "lock up " at all. It is prob. due to a too long hand jammed tight when the hammer is at full cock. What you need to look for is the bolt moving into the stop notch on the cyl. Another is to see if the chamber is lined up with the bore when it is "locked up tight".

The hands job is to rotate the cyl.. The bolts job is to lock up the cyl. What I would do next is take the grip frame and trig guard off and watch as I cycle the action. Is the bolt moving away from the cyl. so that it can rotate? The bolt may not be moving at all and there may be your prob. Broken trig./bolt spring?
If the spring isn't broken, it would push the bolt into the stop notch at some point when you cock it. If the bolts arm is broken (not making contact with the hammer cam) the bolt would not move out or away from the cylinder.

Your hand was prob ok and the bolt prob is the one you should be looking at. So, old hand back in, new combo spring in and prob a working 1860.

Dont let a cracked spring fool ya. it can look fine until you take it out and check it. Been there, done that !!!

45 Dragoon

 

[Old Fuff]

yeah, but as i said the hammer doesnt go back any further anymore after its locked, nor does the cylinder wiggle.. its completely solid now

I understand. If the bolt drops into the notch in the cylinder nothing can move and all seems tight and secure. But the bolt is met to lock the chamber in alignment with the bore, not act as a cylinder stop. As things stand now your revolver is locked up tight, but as the tip of the hand, ratchet teeth on the cylinder, and the notches in the cylinder become battered it won't stay as it is.

 

[45 Dragoon]

I'm sure Old Fuff must have meant the Hand, not the bolt does not act as the cyl. stop. The bolt rising to cyl. and engaging the cyl. STOP NOTCH is exactly what stops the rotation of the cylinder. The hand should carry the cyl. around to battery and no further.
What we are both saying is the too long of a hand jammed the cyl. and poss the bolt in the stop notch is not the way it is supposed to happen. I would bet, from what you orig. said, that the bolt is either obstructed or the combo spring is broken/cracked.

45 Dragoon

 

[jason41987]

the bolt fully protrudes from the button of the frame with the hammer locked back, and while this issue was still present, i had actually broke and replaced the spring, didnt change anything, also looked down the barrel and the chamber is perfectly centered

anyway, so the spring for the trigger/bolt, its relative.y new, its not a leaf spring like before, but a wire spring.. and when the hammer is back, the bolt is fully upward with no play in it

 

[olgeorge]

1860 Issues

This subject is hard to explain without pictures. There are a couple of good articles on tuning percussion and open top revolvers on "theopenrange.net" in the "Firearms, Leather and Gunsmithing"forum, both written by Larson E. Pettifoger. In tuning mine, I have used a vertical pin or screw in the trigger guard directly under the point where the hammer roller stops at full cock. It bears on the bottom of the mainspring and is filed to a length that will stop the hammer travel just as the trigger drops into the full cock notch, plus a trifle extra to make sure it will engage every time. It is probably hard on hammer roller pins, though. I've also put a pin or screw in the backstrap cut behind the hammer to act as a stop. It looks a little odd,but works. I recently did it on a Ruger Bisley which had about 1/8" clearance between the back of the hammer and the slot in the backstrap. The hand and bolt were stopping the hammer. I used a#4-40 Allen screw and a 0.004" shim washer. It looks strange, but works. I think most of the replica revolvers have too much clearance at the rear of the hammer to fit a long enough trigger to make it work as intended. Or maybe I just don't have enough parts on hand?? I'm no expert on this. Feel free to disagree if you've come up with a better method. L. O. G.

 

[Jim K]

It is a fine point, but Old Fuff is correct; what stops the hammer, and therefore the hand and cylinder rotation should be the hammer hitting the backstrap. At that point, the bolt should drop into the cylinder notch and lock the cylinder in place. If the hammer can still come back after the bolt drops into the cylinder notch, the hand will still exert pressure on the ratchet and the cylinder notch will batter or bend the bolt and the bolt, in turn, will batter the cylinder notch.

But if the gun is properly timed, pressure of the hand will stop just as the bolt drops into the notch and the rotational force on the cylinder will stop.

(In his book on the 51 Navy, Nathan Swayze uses a fair amount of space trying to categorize and explain the various depths of the cut in the Navy backstraps; he apparently was unaware of the factory practice Old Fuff describes.)

Jim

 

[jason41987]

so then once the hammer locks, and wont move back any further the bolt pops up, and the cylinder locks with the chamber perfectly centered, but the hammer does not contact the back strap... the hand did look longer than the original, so i guess when it does lock, the hand is still contacting the notches on the back side of the cylinder the hand contacts to turn it... if the hand was TOO long, then wouldnt the hammer not be able to go back far enough to lock?... should the hand still be contacting the cylinder?

 

[45 Dragoon]

Yes, I think your new hand is too long.
No matter what anyone tells you, If the bolt is not operating as it should, the cyl. will over rotate (cly. throw by as it was called at Colt). I have been messing with s.a.'s (colt and clones) a looooooong time and never new of one to not need a bolt to stop the inertia of the rotating cly.. The bolt rises to meet the locking slot lead and as the cyl. rotation continues, it snaps into the cyl. bolt locking slot.When that happens, the cyl. stops rotating ( even if the hammer isn't against the back strap) I tune all my s.a.'s to be able to be fanned. No, I do not shoot them that way all the time, but I can if I want to (even the Dragoons and that's a lot of weight spinnin around !!) If you watch some of the videos on Bob Munden, you will notice how important the bolt is at stopping the cyl.! Notice the length of the locking slot leads on his s.a.'s His guns are set up to drop the bolt quite early (because of the speed of rotation)to stop and lock the cyl. twice, faster than you can see it (and the bolt face is specially designed for earlier than norm. entry into the locking slot)!!!
I'm sure someone could explain how firing the round is responsible for stopping the cyl. from rotating but don't you believe it!!!! 2+2 still =4
Check the bolt window through which the bolt rises through and see if it is over sized. If so, a bolt block will solve your problem (along with a new bolt which is prob all you need).


45 Dragoon

 

[jason41987]

when i take the hand out of the equation and try to move the cylinder with the hammer down. it should still be locked up... but it wiggles here with the hammer down.. the direction it wiggles, where it feels loose is counter clockwise (when looking at the cylinder from the rear)... nothings wrong with the notches themselves.. as the wiggle is identicle for every notch, every chamber.. so what would the fix be for this?.. the bolt is as far up as it can go, should i order a replacement bolt?

 

[Old Fuff]

When the hand is in place it will push the cylinder far enough so that when the hammer is at full-cock the ball on the bolt (that part of the bolt that sticks up through the frame and goes into the notch(s) in the cylinder) is pressed against the side of the notch, and that takes out the wiggle, but only for the time being.

Try another test: Leave in the hand but remove the bolt & trigger spring, and bolt. Looking through the window in the bottom of the frame, align one of the notches in the cylinder with the window. Apply some light finger pressure on the back of the trigger as you slowly cock back the hammer. I would expect that as the tip of the trigger goes into the full-cock notch the next notch in the cylinder will be aligned with the window in the bottom of the frame where the bolt would usually be. Now continue to pull the hammer backwards until it is blocked by the backstrap - and as you do so see if the cylinder doesn't continue to turn to approximately 1/4 to 1/2 of the distance to the next cylinder notch.

If it does this isn't good.

 

[TheRodDoc]

This is why your cyl. seems locked tight. It Should have a small amount of rotational movement when the bolt is in the cyl.

As in this drawing, Your slightly long hand is forcing the cyl against the side of bolt and frame slot. It could sometime not let the bolt slip into the cyl. slot being so tight. And if it doesn't, the cyl. will over rotate if the hammer isn't against the grip frame to stop it. then when you pull the trigger the hammer will miss the nipple.

This is a view from the bottom of gun. (Nothing to scale. Just to show what is going on)

 

[45 Dragoon]

It would be best to remove the trig. guard and watch what wiggles. could be a bolt head filed too small, too big of a window, bolt mounting holes grossly over sized for bolt screw. Like the others have said, it's hard to tell without seeing it.You are just going to have to explore (great way to learn by the way).

With a good combo spring, and correct fitting bolt with hammer installed, it should lock up tight. If not, it is an ill fitting bolt in cyl. notch or left and right movement of the bolt in the frame. Here is where you will find the prob.

While it's apart, install the old hand, bolt and trig. back in with combo spring. Cycle the hammer slowly with a finger on the side of the cyl. for resistance and see if it will bring a chamber to full battery when full cock notch is achieved. If it will, then your hand is fine. If not, now would be a good time to fit the "too long" new one.

Here is a point of contention with what some say is wrong. And guess what . . . . . I agree!! If you were starting with a new hammer and all new (over sized) parts, you would do as Old Fuff says and use the back strap as a stop for your hammer travel. The prob is, with our clones, the full cock notch is the mark for lock-up as well. This is most of the time before the hammer reaches the back strap. It can be fixed with a stop added (internally ) or start over with all new and over sized parts to fit.

So, now you need to fix your open top to your satisfaction and you have a great source of info among these fine folks.

45 Dragoon


See !!! Old Fuff and Rod Doc got to ya while I was writing a book LOL ( I type a little slow). Thanks guys.

 

[jason41987]

so, when the hammer is fully cocked, should the cylinder be able to wiggle in a rotational direction?. if so, how much?... if not, how can i correct it after shortening the hand? im sure i can fine-tune the shape of it with some small files until it fits perfectly

 

[45 Dragoon]

When the hammer is fully cocked, there should be no rotational mov'mt at all. In fact, with the hammer down there should be no movement. If there is, something is a little off (bolt wise). If it's tight when at full cock and slight play with hammer down, the hand is still in play where it shouldn't be. The bolt does all the locking. The hand does all the turning. I'm sure there is a thread or two here that can help you fit a new bolt. If you cant wait, you may try peening your old bolt ball (Old Fuff) out some and then stone it down. One main thing to remember is keep the bolt sides parallel and don't try to "cone" or tapper the bolt to fit the notch (you'll NEVER fan that way !!!!!).

45 Dragoon

 

[TheRodDoc]

It should move some. It isn't critical at all. 3 to 6 thousandths each way maybe.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Dang it !! Rod Doc is right. I'm a perfectionist though. Some play is acceptable.

45 Dragoon

 

[Old Fuff]

The Old Fuff never claimed that there would be zero wiggle of the cylinder when the hammer was "at rest." Could happen, but a little battering of the notches by the bolt's ball (a Colt factory term) would introduce some wiggle eventually.

He also acknowledges that tuning a single action revolver for fanning (something that he doesn't specialize in) is a unique process in itself - that I don't believe is an issue here.

In original Colt cap & ball models, and early Single Action Army's the bolt notches were more shallow then most modern reproductions. Because of this (plus softer steels used at the time) final assemblers fitted them up as I described. Should one have the opportunity to examine an original-but mostly-unused Colt from this era (usually found cased with accessories) they will find that the hammer rotates to full-cock at the point where the back of the hammer comes up against the backstrap. The reason should be obvious.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Duly noted and I agree.

As a side note, the reason for the lock up being what it is with hammer at rest, is that is where it is when fired.

Hey Fuff, it is fun to fan, even if it's with snap caps. LOL

 

[Old Fuff]

Hey Fuff, it is fun to fan, even if it's with snap caps. LOL

For some it is, but if the revolver isn't set up "just right" it will soon be reduced to junk. Back in my day (during the last century) they used to say that a serious fanner had 3 pairs of single action revolvers. One that was in use, one that was at the gunsmith's being rebuilt, and one in reserve - just in case.

Now if you can afford all of this...

 

[45 Dragoon]

HA HA !! They were right !!!!! Like I said, I like to set them up that way but I don't shoot um that way !!!! Just if I get an itch to . . . . I can and wont mess um up.

Interesting though, My 1860 has a Kirst Konverter which makes it a 5 shot and the set up for that is for the back strap to be the stop. The cyl has to move further so you need alllll of that hammer mov'mt to get ur done so to speak. The full cock notch is still where it was so I have more clicks than i'm spos to but heck, it sounds good. (like the movies).

 

[Old Fuff]

I think you're saying that the hand (as fitted) won't fully rotate (called "carry up") the cylinder to the next notch, so cocking the hammer must be quick and all of the way back so that the cylinder will free-wheel on to lock-up. Then you lower the hammer to full-cock.

Such a machine you got there!!!! If it don't break down you're in business...

Think I'll pass - I'm not so quick anymore.