My 1911's POI is very low
- Thread starter Holo
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KodiakBeer
member
No. There's a standard 1911 barrel bushing.
You are correct bushings are different size , it depends on the tolerances the manufacture uses when building the guns. Most gi or mil spec 1911 are milled to with a few thousands of inch of one another. But when building a match grade gun the manufacturer will start out with an over size bushing in the od and id to fit it tight. Match barrels are usually oversize on the barrell lugs, and the lower portion of the barrel where the link joins the barrel. Some barrels are even have an oversize od and a slightly unfinished chamber for truly match quality fit.
KodiakBeer
member
He doesn't have a match gun and I'm not suggesting he buy a match bushing. In fact, you can't buy a match bushing for $15. He needs to take a standard stock bushing and test it to see whether his POI changes. His best bet is to just borrow one from a friend.
It may or may not be his problem, but it's an easy thing to check before filing away at his gun.
It may or may not be his problem, but it's an easy thing to check before filing away at his gun.
Match bushing is a waste of time. The barrel, bushing, lugs and link/pin all need to be precisely fitted.
That is why it is best to get a match barrel fitted. Kart barrel and bushing is the best.
If he just replaces the bushing he will be out the price of the bushing and fitting it.
If you want to try a bushing I have found this egw angle bored bushing to fit most mil spec and target guns slightly tight in od and id. Its only $25 and the best for a drop in fit. I've used this to replace worn bushing on old colt gold cups and a few mil spec guns that were loose. Fitting usually only requires using some good oil on the slide, barrell and bushing and working the parts back and forth , this will achieve a very tight fit. For $25 its worth a try, but if your barrell lugs and link pin are sloppy it won't help much.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=15238/sku/WCPI_Blue_Pre_Fit_Bushing__Govt_
That is why it is best to get a match barrel fitted. Kart barrel and bushing is the best.
If he just replaces the bushing he will be out the price of the bushing and fitting it.
If you want to try a bushing I have found this egw angle bored bushing to fit most mil spec and target guns slightly tight in od and id. Its only $25 and the best for a drop in fit. I've used this to replace worn bushing on old colt gold cups and a few mil spec guns that were loose. Fitting usually only requires using some good oil on the slide, barrell and bushing and working the parts back and forth , this will achieve a very tight fit. For $25 its worth a try, but if your barrell lugs and link pin are sloppy it won't help much.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=15238/sku/WCPI_Blue_Pre_Fit_Bushing__Govt_
SSN Vet
Member
I'm kind of amazed how many replies to this guys thread seem to be way out in left field, with out any clue about the pistol he's talking about.
Here's a review of it at Gunblast...
http://www.gunblast.com/Firestorm-1911Deluxe.htm
For what it's worth, it get's a pretty good review, and I'll bet ya a cup of coffee that the problem is not the pistol at all.
The rear sight is not a Novak (though it has the wedge styling made famous by Novak) nor is it mounted with a Novak cut. Nor does ths slide have a Bomar cut.
My experience is not the most extensive in the world, but here's my 2 cents.... worth exactly what you paid for it....
Fixed 3-dot sights are "combat sights" and the correct sight picture is to "put the dot on the spot"... so forget about the 6 o'clock hold business and you've solved the "shoots low" issue.
Personally, I would not blame the hardware for shooting 1" left, unless I put the gun into the hands of a VERY experienced shooter who can shoot one hole groups, and he produced the same 1" left results.
I believe the OP mentioned that this is his first handgun..... and good for him. I wish my first handgun was as nice. I suspect that what he's finding out is that shooting handguns accurately is not as easy as video games and the internet commandos make it out to be.
Bad technique, no matter how much you practice it, won't produce good results. So get some sound instruction on good technique. Here's a good primer from a guy who knows something to get you started...
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html
Read it and do everything he says.... you should see some improvement.
The best thing however, is to find that "VERY experienced shooter who can shoot one hole groups" I mentioned earlier and have him watch you shoot and give you some pointers.
I was fortunate enough to stumble accross the firearms instructor for the local nuke plant security force at the range one day. He watched me shoot two mags and in 15 minutes I realized more improvement that the previous 10 range trips practicing on my own.
Mas covers the fundametals well in the article I linked.
Stance... grip... front sight... smoothe trigger pull...
Absorb them into your brain and concentrate on those basics. Recite them to yourself while at the range and try to slow your breathing.
It's not easy. But it's not impossible either.
Keep at it and it will come. You'll have some real personal satisfaction when it does.
Here's a review of it at Gunblast...
http://www.gunblast.com/Firestorm-1911Deluxe.htm
For what it's worth, it get's a pretty good review, and I'll bet ya a cup of coffee that the problem is not the pistol at all.
The rear sight is not a Novak (though it has the wedge styling made famous by Novak) nor is it mounted with a Novak cut. Nor does ths slide have a Bomar cut.
My experience is not the most extensive in the world, but here's my 2 cents.... worth exactly what you paid for it....
Fixed 3-dot sights are "combat sights" and the correct sight picture is to "put the dot on the spot"... so forget about the 6 o'clock hold business and you've solved the "shoots low" issue.
Personally, I would not blame the hardware for shooting 1" left, unless I put the gun into the hands of a VERY experienced shooter who can shoot one hole groups, and he produced the same 1" left results.
I believe the OP mentioned that this is his first handgun..... and good for him. I wish my first handgun was as nice. I suspect that what he's finding out is that shooting handguns accurately is not as easy as video games and the internet commandos make it out to be.
Bad technique, no matter how much you practice it, won't produce good results. So get some sound instruction on good technique. Here's a good primer from a guy who knows something to get you started...
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html
Read it and do everything he says.... you should see some improvement.
The best thing however, is to find that "VERY experienced shooter who can shoot one hole groups" I mentioned earlier and have him watch you shoot and give you some pointers.
I was fortunate enough to stumble accross the firearms instructor for the local nuke plant security force at the range one day. He watched me shoot two mags and in 15 minutes I realized more improvement that the previous 10 range trips practicing on my own.
Mas covers the fundametals well in the article I linked.
Stance... grip... front sight... smoothe trigger pull...
Absorb them into your brain and concentrate on those basics. Recite them to yourself while at the range and try to slow your breathing.
It's not easy. But it's not impossible either.
Keep at it and it will come. You'll have some real personal satisfaction when it does.
Thank you for the pointers VET. I went to the range again today after about 200 dry fire drills at the TV (much to the agony of my GF =P) and here is what i found:
First target. 16 shots. Obviously some bad triggering involved. The flyers are mostly my first mag. That big hole if i counted right should be 9 rounds.
Again i put 2 more mags into the target with a bit more control and produced another 9 shot group.
I dry fired some more to get the routine down and then shot 8 shots into this.
These are in chronological order and i can really see a progression of tigher groups as i practiced more.
This was some quicker shooting. 2 seconds between each shot, trying very hard for good trigger control.
Seems the switch from years of rifles and other long guns wasn't as easy as i thought it would be.
First target. 16 shots. Obviously some bad triggering involved. The flyers are mostly my first mag. That big hole if i counted right should be 9 rounds.
Again i put 2 more mags into the target with a bit more control and produced another 9 shot group.
I dry fired some more to get the routine down and then shot 8 shots into this.
These are in chronological order and i can really see a progression of tigher groups as i practiced more.
This was some quicker shooting. 2 seconds between each shot, trying very hard for good trigger control.
Seems the switch from years of rifles and other long guns wasn't as easy as i thought it would be.
BCRider
Member
So 5 yards then.
Here's my take on the results on the targets. Like much else here it's worth exactly what you are paying for it....
But ask yourself if what I'm seeing is what you feel.
Target 1- lots of low and left and big open grouping. Signs of a solid flinch combined with likely too much of trying to pull the trigger with not just your finger but also both hands and forearms tensing up at the same time. The second magazine shows some nice grouping so it would appear that you settled down and the flinch mostly or all went away and you achieved a more relaxed but still supportive hold while isolating your trigger finger motion from the rest of your grip.
Target 2- Some of the flinch or "flinch and clutch" came back to produce the low and spaced out hits along with some "wandering sights" judging by the high one. But on the whole you managed to calmly shoot your way through most of the magazine judging by the nice grouping. It's still off to the right but at least now it's consistent.
Target 3- Pretty good other than that one high and right flyer. Still over to the right but not quite as much.
Target 4- Your grip on the gun changed noticably from the other targets to this one. As a result you're also likely using a different part of your finger on the trigger. Depending on your hold and finger placement the gun went from shooting to the right to shooting center and left. The two far lefties are likely signs of some flinch coming back or just a strong side push of the trigger. The rest are centered not badly but not as tight as the previous groups of shots.
I'd say that you're beginning to get it and by now you likely realize that it's you and not the gun. The key now is to get some personal coaching from a known good shooter that has a reputation for being good at explaining things.
I'd also suggest that you're still reacting fairly strongly to the recoil. You may or may not have luck learning "through" the recoil effects over time. One way to shorten this learning phase is to rent, borrow or buy a .22 pistol that is reasonably similar to your center fire guns and use this to practice your grip, calm and trigger control. You have to learn "shoot through the recoil" to achieve really good results. For me that meant concentrating on the feel of the trigger and pulling it smoothly but firmly all the way to the rear stop, hold it there for a quick but recognizable instant and then let the trigger go forward past the reset point. When you're mentally in tune with smoothly moving the trigger in this manner the recoil is just a passing thing that you notice but don't acknowledge. And when you're in the zone you can feel every aspect of the trigger's motion both forward and back. This all sounds airy fairy but for me it was a huge step in learning to shoot decently tight groups consistently. "Shooting through the recoil" is something that isn't so much a skill as a state of mind when you're shooting. The skill part is more the proper and consistent hold of the gun and holding the sights steady while you're moving the trigger and getting the sights back onto target after the gun jumps. The state of mind part for me gave me the detatchment and calm to do all this with the fury of a kicking gun in my hands. But since this trigger exercise is more a state of mind this means that it's far more fragile than the skills. I find my "calm detachment" shatters on a frequent enough basis that I always bring and shoot at least one of my .22's for every practice/plinking session. Even if I don't feel the need I reinforce the conditioning by shooting at least 50 rounds of .22 for each 100 of center fire. And often it's biased to 1 for 1 or even higher in favour of the .22.
I know that when I shoot in my local club's Speed Steel monthly matches that if I shoot my .22 in the morning match and center fire in the afternoon match I typically get a lot less misses with the center fire than if I shoot centerfire in the morning and .22 in the afternoon. The morning with the .22 just puts me in the better frame of mind. And no... I don't miss more with the .22 in the morning than the afternoon...
Here's my take on the results on the targets. Like much else here it's worth exactly what you are paying for it....
But ask yourself if what I'm seeing is what you feel.Target 1- lots of low and left and big open grouping. Signs of a solid flinch combined with likely too much of trying to pull the trigger with not just your finger but also both hands and forearms tensing up at the same time. The second magazine shows some nice grouping so it would appear that you settled down and the flinch mostly or all went away and you achieved a more relaxed but still supportive hold while isolating your trigger finger motion from the rest of your grip.
Target 2- Some of the flinch or "flinch and clutch" came back to produce the low and spaced out hits along with some "wandering sights" judging by the high one. But on the whole you managed to calmly shoot your way through most of the magazine judging by the nice grouping. It's still off to the right but at least now it's consistent.
Target 3- Pretty good other than that one high and right flyer. Still over to the right but not quite as much.
Target 4- Your grip on the gun changed noticably from the other targets to this one. As a result you're also likely using a different part of your finger on the trigger. Depending on your hold and finger placement the gun went from shooting to the right to shooting center and left. The two far lefties are likely signs of some flinch coming back or just a strong side push of the trigger. The rest are centered not badly but not as tight as the previous groups of shots.
I'd say that you're beginning to get it and by now you likely realize that it's you and not the gun. The key now is to get some personal coaching from a known good shooter that has a reputation for being good at explaining things.
I'd also suggest that you're still reacting fairly strongly to the recoil. You may or may not have luck learning "through" the recoil effects over time. One way to shorten this learning phase is to rent, borrow or buy a .22 pistol that is reasonably similar to your center fire guns and use this to practice your grip, calm and trigger control. You have to learn "shoot through the recoil" to achieve really good results. For me that meant concentrating on the feel of the trigger and pulling it smoothly but firmly all the way to the rear stop, hold it there for a quick but recognizable instant and then let the trigger go forward past the reset point. When you're mentally in tune with smoothly moving the trigger in this manner the recoil is just a passing thing that you notice but don't acknowledge. And when you're in the zone you can feel every aspect of the trigger's motion both forward and back. This all sounds airy fairy but for me it was a huge step in learning to shoot decently tight groups consistently. "Shooting through the recoil" is something that isn't so much a skill as a state of mind when you're shooting. The skill part is more the proper and consistent hold of the gun and holding the sights steady while you're moving the trigger and getting the sights back onto target after the gun jumps. The state of mind part for me gave me the detatchment and calm to do all this with the fury of a kicking gun in my hands. But since this trigger exercise is more a state of mind this means that it's far more fragile than the skills. I find my "calm detachment" shatters on a frequent enough basis that I always bring and shoot at least one of my .22's for every practice/plinking session. Even if I don't feel the need I reinforce the conditioning by shooting at least 50 rounds of .22 for each 100 of center fire. And often it's biased to 1 for 1 or even higher in favour of the .22.
I know that when I shoot in my local club's Speed Steel monthly matches that if I shoot my .22 in the morning match and center fire in the afternoon match I typically get a lot less misses with the center fire than if I shoot centerfire in the morning and .22 in the afternoon. The morning with the .22 just puts me in the better frame of mind. And no... I don't miss more with the .22 in the morning than the afternoon...
Thanks for the input. You hit the nail on the head with the fact that i am actually realizing that it's me and not the gun.
I do bring a .22 to the range and i shoot it a lot as the ammo is so cheap. One thing i probably need not do is use the red dot on it. Taking that off would probably help me a lot.
I do bring a .22 to the range and i shoot it a lot as the ammo is so cheap. One thing i probably need not do is use the red dot on it. Taking that off would probably help me a lot.
25 ft. is only about 8 yrds. Your 1911 was designed to shoot POA at 20-25 yrds. Your trying to shoot it like a belly gun. Take your 22lr and practice at minimum 20 yrds. and get proficent at that range , then switch to the 1911 and then evaluate your shooting.
The way you are shooting is like trying to sight in scoped 30-06 deer rifle in at 25 yrds. and hoping this will get you sighted in at 100 yrds. with out actually shooting it at the range the sights and the gun was designed for.
You can make no determinations of your pistols accuracy by firing at 8 yrds.
The way you are shooting is like trying to sight in scoped 30-06 deer rifle in at 25 yrds. and hoping this will get you sighted in at 100 yrds. with out actually shooting it at the range the sights and the gun was designed for.
You can make no determinations of your pistols accuracy by firing at 8 yrds.
one other issue is that your pistols sights are very large in comparison to the bullseye at close range.
The greater the distance you get from the target the smaller bullseye will be in relationship to the sight picture and if you shoot at the 20 yrds. it may cut down the amount shooter error in groups and shot placement.
Its like trying to use a 25 power scope to shoot at 25 yrds. your sight picture will be to magnified to large and you will get terrible groups , that is why you use a 2-4x magnification at 25 yrds.
To sum it up I feel the close range is magnifying your shooting errors, try it at 20 yrds. and see what happens
The greater the distance you get from the target the smaller bullseye will be in relationship to the sight picture and if you shoot at the 20 yrds. it may cut down the amount shooter error in groups and shot placement.
Its like trying to use a 25 power scope to shoot at 25 yrds. your sight picture will be to magnified to large and you will get terrible groups , that is why you use a 2-4x magnification at 25 yrds.
To sum it up I feel the close range is magnifying your shooting errors, try it at 20 yrds. and see what happens
Well it looks like we've solved your POI very low problem to the point of getting you up to your POA...and you didn't even have to buy new sights or other parts
Kudo's to those offering great shooting advice AND to the OP for not being a mall ninja who is afraid to admit he may not be Clint Eastwood from the start!
Your targets look like you are making steady progress. Listen to these guys giving good advice and keep practicing. Also, don't get discouraged if you take a step backwards from time to time.
Your targets look like you are making steady progress. Listen to these guys giving good advice and keep practicing. Also, don't get discouraged if you take a step backwards from time to time.
Yes, i really appreciate the advice. I shot competitively in pellet rifles from age 10 to age 17 and then stopped for a while. I am now 23 and getting back into shooting and my skills are quite rusty from the time off. I always value input from you guys because after reading the forum for about a week i realized that most people on THR aren't a bunch of tacticool idiots but experienced shooters and smiths. I take all input with a grain of salt but that doesn't mean i have not tried it. (As is apparent from the difference in group size from page 1 to page 3)
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
Magnumite
Member
Good improvement, Holo. Every trip to the range is an adventure.
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