My Ballistics Gel Test: Uh-oh...?

[bja5006]

Hello all,

Just today I got to test .357 magnums versus .38 specials out of my snubnose revolver. I'm a little intrigued at the results. I'll put the ammunition data at the end so as not to bore you now.

I had 28" deep of homemade ballistics gel set up, and fired from 7' away. I assumed 7' as this is where I pictured a close encounter happening, or my limit as to how close I would let a charging person get to me.

RESULTS
4 shots of each

.38 Specials: Penetration
14.875"
17.875"
21.000"
23.125"
Average: 19.219"

.357 Magnums: Penetration
16.250"
20.500"
22.125"
22.000"
Average: 20.219"

I'm concerned because; a) the magnums only penetrated on average ONE inch more, and one of the .38's went the furthest of ALL. and b) ONLY the magnums showed ANY significant expansion. All of the bullets were hollowpoint. and only ONE of the magnums flowered to a satisfactory diameter. I have included pictures of the recovered bullets.

I bought the .38's because they were made specifically for self-defense, and a lighter load may give me more accurate follow-up shots. BUT, I've since practiced a lot with the .357's and am comfortable with 3 quick shots given the recoil.

So... do you think the Hornady .38's for self defense failed? are my .357's performing adequately? or should I just break down and buy a 1911 in .45 like I dream about?

(the details)
Gun: Rossi (Taurus) model 461 2" barrel 6-shot revolver
.38 Special:
Hornady 125 gr. JHP/XTP 900 fps muzzle, 225 ft/lbs muzzle
.357 Magnum:
Blazer 158 gr. JHP 1150 fps muzzle, 464 ft/lbs muzzle

PICTURES ATTACHED
.357's are on the top row of each picture, .38's on the bottom row

 

[EHL]

So... do you think the Hornady .38's for self defense failed? are my .357's performing adequately? or should I just break down and buy a 1911 in .45 like I dream about?
[/QUOTE
If nothing else, at least consider switching brands of ammuntion. The penetration was good, but the expansion was less than steller in the vast majority of your shots. You might as well save yourself the cost of premium ammunition and load up with FMJ, given their performance in expansion.
I doubt it's a problem with the caliber, but I would wholeheartedly give the thumbs up to a 1911 for self defense!

 

[REB]

The ammunition you are using is defiantly not performing well. The xtp bullet is very accurate in my reloads but I have tested a lot of it and it doesn't expand well. There is always a trade off between penetration and expansion. If you don't push a bullet fast enough for it to expand properly it will penetrate much more. On the other hand if a bullet expands to much penetration will suffer. Bottom line is neither of these loads a performing very well in the gun you are shooting them out of.

Even if you go to a 45 if the ammunition you chose to use is not matched to the gun and task the results wont be much better.

Try some speer gold dots in either 125 grain or the 135 grain short barrel. My experience with the 158 grain gold dots is you don't get enough velocity out of a short barrel for them to expand reliably. The Corbon DPX also performs very well in either 38SP+P or 357 mag. I am sure there are others that perform well but these are the ones I have the most experience with.

 

[heritageguy]

Try the Gold Dot Short Barrel 38 Special.

 

[bja5006]

What about the Gold Dot Short Barrel .357 magnum?

edit: nevermind, didnt read closely

 

[CWL]

Any way you can chrono the Mag loads and test again?

My suspicion is that you are blowing most of the Mag propellant out the front of the snubbie and not getting peak muzzle energy.

The .38 specials appear to perform really well.

 

[Steve C]

I'm assuming that you are using the velocity data from the factory websites or catalogs, since they are as listed and have not actually ran these rounds over a chrono to see what you are really getting.

The problem with short barrels is they reduce the velocity of the ammo tested from a 4" barrel by around 150 to 250 fps. With conventional HP ammo you need 1,000 fps at the muzzle to get reliable expansion and your CCI magnums, where the 1,150 fps ballistics where factory measured from a 4" barrel, are probably just barely at 1,000 fps or less, thus the less than stellar expansion. The 125gr Hornady ammo was undoubtedly too slow to get any expansion.

Penetration comes from lack of expansion so despite the .357 mag having a bit more velocity its bullets get slowed down from the minor expansion it does have.

Going to a round like the Speer Gold dot short barrel ammo will get you a round designed to expand at the velocities it achieves in a short barreled revolver.

You should also consider a lighter weight magnum round like 125gr JHP's full power or Gold Saber medium power ammo from Remington. The full power rounds usually clock over 1,400 fps from a 4" barrel and would still run at 1,200 from a 2". The medium power loads from Remington would still be running in excess of 1,000 fps from a 2".

At low velocity soft lead bullets with ample hollow cavity work well, so for .38's the 158gr LSWCHP's from Winchester, Remington or Federal will work well as would 125gr Federal Nyclads if you can find them

 

[bja5006]

cool, thanks

I was aware of the shorter barrel problem with velocity. I dont have a chronograph though, but I'm definitely willing to test some more ammo to find which one performs the best.

for now, I'm keeping the Blazer 158gr JHP .357's in it. I figure, all penetration equal, heavier bullet and more expansion is best for now. Next, I need to find one that flowers everytime... good luck, right?

 

[RyanM]

Just out of curiosity, was the gelatin actually 10%, and did you calibrate it with a BB gun?

If you didn't calibrate it, you have to pretty much throw out the penetration data, except for comparing stuff within that one block (which looks like the only conclusion you drew).

Anyway, looks like both did very poorly. Not much of a surprise, though. I tried Winchester 158 gr SJHPs through an SP-101, one time. In water jugs (which cause bullets to expand slightly more than jello), all that happened at .357 mag velocity is the tip spread out a very small amount. With a .38 load, they just got a little rounded and that was it!

I also recommend the Speer 135 gr short barrel Gold Dots. .38 or .357, there's not a whole lot of difference between them. The SBGDs are very reliable expanders.

 

[bja5006]

It was 1 lb of Knox Gelatin and 1 gallon of water. I followed a popular online guide to making it. I dont know how to calibrate it using a bb gun

 

[RyanM]

For calibration, you need a... I forget the model, but it's one of the few smoothbore BB rifles still on the market. You can get them at Wal-Mart for like $30. And a chronograph. Pump the BB gun 10 times, and shoot the jello. Ideally, the BB hits the jello at 590 fps, and penetrates 8.5 cm. Could also use any old BB gun, as long as it can shoot a standard steel BB at around 590 fps.

You can then post the calibration velocity and penetration, so that people know how your jello is compared to 100% standard jello. Like if your calibration shot was 550 fps, and penetrated 8.6 cm, then they know bullets in that block will penetrate deeper than standard. The mathematically inclined can calculate precisely how much.

 

[Rustynuts]

I think you answered your own question with the expansion. Let's see, expanding 357's don't go as far as non-expanding 38's? That's like comparing HP's to FMJ's! Of course the FMJ's will have more penetration. If you can control it, I would just get some hotter 357 SD ammo (Double Tap?), or trust that the 38 "FMJ" will do the trick.

Given equal penetration, I would still take the expanded 357 over the 38 any day if the gun is controllable.

 

[M&PVolk]

Try the Remington Golden Saber. I have not done ballistics on them, but they seem to have a great street record in .38 and .357.

 

[pps]

bja5006, xtp's need a lot of velocity to open up. Have you tried the good old remington sjhp in 125gr at 1450 fps or the 158gr sjhp pictured below? Expansion was .50" on most of the bullets that didn't mushroom so severely as to peel lead away from the jacket.

 

[Daizee]

I think it's generally accepted that to get a jacketed bullet to open up at under 1100fps or so, you need one of the latest high-tech designs (Gold Dot, DPX). Else, below 1100fps, soft lead expands much more reliably.

Jackets are designed to hold the bullet together and keep it from stripping off in the bore at high velocity. Very hard-cast lead bullets do the same. You don't get high velocity from a snubbie - it's really the worst platform for a traditional JHP. When you add powder you end up with more noise, flash, and recoil all out of proportion to the extra velocity. Just like your car, the bullet needs road to accelerate. The moment it leaves the barrel it starts slowing down.

Remember, Hornady's "XTP" stands for "eXtreme Terminal Penetration", and it's a hunting bullet expected to be driven at high speed from a long-barreled revolver or a carbine. Bullets are designed to perform in particular velocity ranges. If the XTP is designed for the (for instance) 1300-1600fps range, then it's going to be useless for expansion at 1000fps. Conversely, a JHP like the Gold Dot designed to work at 900fps would likely tear itself apart on the surface if it strikes with an impact velocity up in the 1600's.

I think the modern SD rounds are worth the money, tho obviously you may not want to use them for your daily practice as they're frickin' expensive!

-Daizee

 

[Lovesbeer99]

I'd suggest trying some soft lead WC's or SWC in 148 or 158gr. The weight will penetrate and the softness will let it deform and cause damage. The bullets you're using have the jacket which require higher velocities to perform properly.

Go old school.

 

[sthomper]

do most .45acp travel at (conmsiderably) less than 1100 fps?? do most (speer, federal, cor bon, etc?) expand reliably??

does caliber size have affect on expansion at a given velocity???

for better or full expansion does a smaller caliber need to travel faster than a larger caliber??

in your so called test are the bullets arent the same mass are they?? and the magnum rounds still had twice the energy throughout the 7' or so trajectory???

 

[sthomper]

I was aware of the shorter barrel problem with velocity. I dont have a chronograph though,......

is it a problem with velocity?? i recently saw a video where a 357 125g bullet was fired from a 2.125 in ch barrel and the shooter claimed 1200 fps??? is a 125g bullet at 1200 fps a problem??? is that still more/equivalent energy that a 180g bullet at 1000fps??

do .38 spl jhp rounds regularly not expand due to low velocity??? any disclaimers from ammo manufacturers on that??

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

I can tell you that a .45 cal PDX1 bonded hollowpoint going somewhere between 800 and 900 FPS has no problem opening up when fired into water jugs.

 

[JellyJar]

Remember, there are no magic bullets! Instead of fretting over non expansion through snub barrel revolvers just practice hitting your target.

Some one once wrote ( sorry I don't remember who )

Shot placement is King, penetration is Queen and all else is so many angels dancing on the head of a pin.

 

[Steve C]

-deleated- old message

 

[Tony_the_tiger]

The hornady's have a poor reputation for expansion.

Try the same test with some Corbon DPX and I'll bet they expand everytime.

I think it's generally accepted that to get a jacketed bullet to open up at under 1100fps or so, you need one of the latest high-tech designs (Gold Dot, DPX)

The DPX is solid copper and therefore not a jacketed round.

Cheers,

-T

 

[bja5006]

Updated test

glad to see people are still interested 2.5 yrs after the test!

i have since done another test: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=400286

like Steve C said, the soft points allow for expansion at lower velocities. i couldn't be happier with a self defense round. and now i KNOW with certainty that the bullet will work, the rest is up to me.

 

[ksabo45]

I really like the Hornady Critical Defense Loads in ALL calibers.
Try it, you'll like it.

 

[NoviceClays1989]

Ok I didnt read all of your responses, but my personal experience with blazer has been awful. I do not have access to a chronograph, but I will say this. Most of the decent brand .38 special +p seams to kick harder than blazer .357. I have bought blazer once, and I will do so never again. I had 6 rounds out of a box of 50 fail to ever fire. I too dream about the 1911 but a good one is no where near my budget, and I dont want a cheap one, when I go 1911 I am going the hole 9 yards. I would say redue your test, using .38 spec and .357 of the same manufactuer and view your results, do this with several different brands. That being said, magnums rely on slow burning powders, the bullet leaves a shot barrel before all the powder gets to burn, meaning you are not gaining much, just losing more money on the ammo and basically wasting most of its potential. I currently own a 971 rossi, with a 4 inch bull barrel with full underlug. Love it, shoots like a dream. Just my two cents, but I wouldnt judge anything to harshly based on the blazer ammo. Its not worth its weight in ashes in my mind.