My boyfriend says FFL bad idea

[Smith not Wesson]

I have been giving thought to getting an FFL and setting up a transfer business to run out of my home. My boyfriend thinks that it's a bad idea because I'm a woman living alone. He says that inevitably there will come a time that I would have to deal with someone who may become agitated, if I had to refuse them, for example. My question for you is: have you had any experiences while doing FFL transfers that you think would be awkward for a woman living alone? If you have any other thoughts for someone in my position, please feel free to share them. I would be especially interested in hearing from people that actually do firearms transfers, but welcome information from all. I am greatly appreciative for all your great advice.

 

[Snowbandit]

Probably a non issue anyway since ATF pretty much stopped all the home FFL licensing a number of years ago. Unless your home is in a location zoned for commercial or business use it's a non starter. Then you have to maintain some sort of regular hours, or accept appointments, and be actively engaged in the gun selling business on a regular basis. Beyond that there is the rights to warrantless search of your home by law enforcement you would be giving up meerly because the home is a licensed firearms dealership. All in all, it's probably a bad idea to try and do from home.

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

Ever stop and think that this doesn't have anything to do with guns?

Maybe your boyfriend doesn't want random dudes coming over your house alone with you?

 

[taliv]

it's a moot point, because the ATF is not going to give you a license to operate from your home. You will need a store front, unless something's changed that I'm not aware of.

 

[Telekinesis]

I don't think it would be a good idea to get a FFL just to start a transfer business, but that's just because of the business model, not anything to do with you being female. I personally don't think there's enough money in just transferring weapons to justify the insurance and license fees (but you might feel differently).

If you're set on making the business, do it like a real business, not just a hobby. Incorporate (so you don't loose everything if you ever get sued) and make a real business plan so you know who your market is and what profit you're likely going to get and what your cash flows are going to be.

As far as your actual question, there's always the chance that someone will become belligerent, especially if you deal with enough people. But I don't think that you being female is enough of a reason not to go through with the transfer service (obviously baring my other thoughts on the subject). I think being calm and professional will go a long way towards avoiding any problems, and if worst comes to worst, make sure you have a way to defend yourself. And make sure you actually know how to shoot defensively. Take a class from a reputable company. Fighting with a gun is very different from just going to the range and punching paper. It also wouldn't hurt to be on really good terms with you local PD and keep them on speed dial.

Beyond that there is the rights to warrantless search of your home by law enforcement you would be giving up meerly because the home is a licensed firearms dealership.

I don't believe this is true. I talked to a gunsmith/FFL who works out of his home and he said that searches were just during regular business hours (usually scheduled beforehand) and only the areas of the home that are actively in use by the business (like the "office" and gun storage/work areas).

Also, your home must be in an area zoned to allow you to run a firearms company, and you will have to have the business set up and ready to go before even applying for the FFL.

 

[AlexanderA]

There's a host of considerations including zoning, business licenses, liability insurance, etc. That's if you can jump through the ATF hoops at all. You need a business plan. Your proposed volume of business may not be enough to justify the expenses and the hassles. Plus, it obviously is risky for a woman living alone. This would apply to any sort of business involving a woman meeting strange men face-to-face in her home, not just a gun business. Can you arrange for your boyfriend to be present whenever you are expecting customers? (Maybe he objects because he foresees such a request coming from you at some point down the road.)

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I've found that most FFLs are out of their home. I know two that don't have a gunshop and aren't gunsmiths but they have FFLs. I once looked up FFLs on a website. It was like FFL locator or something, google should be able to find it. I went out thinking that these were all gunshops and every single one I found was residential and not a sign that it was a gunshop.

 

[jfdavis58]

One of my favorite sellers is a woman; I know of three total. All work from or in some place in their homes or on home property. All are single. It's a matter of personal motivation and strength. I suggest you make your own list of pros and cons and do what makes you happy. Good luck!

 

[karlsgunbunker]

it's a moot point, because the ATF is not going to give you a license to operate from your home. You will need a store front, unless something's changed that I'm not aware of.

Sir, That is not correct.
I'm a home based FFL.

The ATF doesn't care where your business is located.

However your Local Government and Zoning commission, care very much.

Check local zoning laws FIRST.

I don't have an opinion on whether a single woman can operate a FFL home business.

My wife does assist me in my business, as an employee, and has done many transfers for men she didn't know.
Only one customer in six years ever creeped her out, but that's why she is armed.

 

[dogtown tom]

This topic gets covered weekly.....

Smith not Wesson I have been giving thought to getting an FFL and setting up a transfer business to run out of my home.

As long as you are comfortable having strangers in your home go for it. I wish I had started years earlier.

Snowbandit Probably a non issue anyway since ATF pretty much stopped all the home FFL licensing a number of years ago

Horsehockey.
Home based FFL's outnumber "brick & mortar" FFL's.

Beyond that there is the rights to warrantless search of your home by law enforcement you would be giving up meerly because the home is a licensed firearms dealership.

Simply not true.

taliv it's a moot point, because the ATF is not going to give you a license to operate from your home. You will need a store front, unless something's changed that I'm not aware of.

Nothings changed. ATF doesn't give a rats hiney if you operate your business from your home or a treehouse in the back yard....as long as you can operate a business legally (under your city/county/state laws including zoning) you WILL be issued a licence.

 

[taliv]

ok, i stand corrected. thanks. I assumed the OP lived in a home with normal zoning that prohibits businesses, and while that's highly probable it may not be a valid assumption. I know that there are a lot of FFLs that operate out of their home (and in fact, my gunsmith in KC operates out of his home and a large shop), but I thought the ATF stopped allowing new ones many years ago, and was more or less actively trying to annoy the existing ones out of business.

The ATF FAQ has long stated the following as a requirement for getting an FFL

Has premises for conducting business or collecting; and

which is obvious since the FFL only applies to one location, so you have to have a location. While it (18 U.S.C. 923(d)) doesn't specifically state that it cannot be a residence, i have been told i would have to have a store front to get an FFL. I actually wanted a mfg license, and more specifically to mfg/reload ammo, and wasn't interested in doing any gun transfers at all.

maybe i could just get my house rezoned

 

[hso]

He says that inevitably there will come a time that I would have to deal with someone who may become agitated,

Wonder where he came up with that idea?

 

[9mmforMe]

In any business you will encounter a customer who is "agitated" eventually. If I'm reading between the lines, there is the assumption that gun owners are less stable? More dangerous?

 

[[email protected]]

I've considered it too... but the issue that stops me is you now give the government the right to come inspect your 'business' anytime they want during normal operating hours....

 

[TexasRifleman]

My long time FFL is a woman, and operates her business out of her home and has for a long time. She told me once that she does over 1 million dollars a year gross sales in a good year. She is married but her husband is not home during normal business hours.

She has one room, used to be a dining room, segregated with secure doors from the rest of the house and she does transfers/sales, etc by appointment only. Only one customer is allowed inside at a time for safety reasons.

As she explains it, and she says she had an attorney look into it (who knows for sure) her "business premise" is only that room and that because the rest of the house is locked during normal business hours the remaining rooms of the house are not subject to the ATF inspection. I have no idea how that would be done but she tells me her attorney is absolutely convinced of it.

She did have some zoning/permit issues but was able to make that work as well.

She said that the ATF agent who conducted her interview was satisfied with the concept of her "business premise" being that one room because, again, it's separated from the rest of the home by secure doors and is used exclusively for that purpose. It's not her dining room anymore, it's her place of business ONLY. She says this does cause tax issues and her CPA costs a little more now but using your home absolutely can be done.

As long as you are able to defend yourself and take the appropriate precautions I don't see why it would be a problem. As long as you're not stocking a huge inventory and letting people just come by and browse anyway....

If you would like her contact info PM me, I don't know if she'd talk to you about what she went through to open her business or not, but wouldn't hurt to ask.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

Hey--get the C/R type 3 1st and see if you REALLY want to invest in making a hobby into an actual bona-dife business. MUCH easier and, no, while YOU CAN'T operate a gun selling busniness with that---you'll get a taste for just HOW MUCH of a headache a type 1 would be unless really making a few bucks with it. Just a thought. And for the 35 bucks or so it costs (for the C/R) you get some perks and discounts and can order a decent variety of (now) essentially pre-1960 manufactured guns direct to your home for your collection. Little red tape, but LOTS of study material from ATF that makes one realize a gun seller needs to REALLY be committed to understanding some sometimes difficult and confusing laws and regulations.

 

[dogtown tom]

Lets see.....yep three whole weeks since the myth last appeared

[email protected] I've considered it too... but the issue that stops me is you now give the government the right to come inspect your 'business' anytime they want during normal operating hours....

This myth keeps getting repeated. And still just as wrong as it was in post #2.:banghead:

Federal law allows ATF ONE unannounced compliance inspection PER YEAR (my most recent was not only announced, but scheduled on a day and time that was convenient for ME).

There is a difference between a compliance inspection, needing information for a firearm trace or customer information pursuant to a criminal investigation and biggest difference of all........the dealer is under criminal investigation and a search warrant for his premises has been issued by a judge.

An ATF IOI cannot just walk in anytime he feels like it and demand to see your books because he wants to.........there must be a legal and valid reason.

By law, ATF is limited to one unannounced compliance inspection per year. This inspection is limited to the dealers "bound book" (record of aquisitions & dispositions), Form 4473's, multiple sale of handgun forms and the dealers inventory. This compliance inspection is only held during the "business hours" you submitted to ATF.

ATF can, at any time request information for a firearm trace or criminal investigation. The dealer is required to accomodate this request and accepted this when he applied for his FFL. ATF will not kick in your door.....they call you.

ATF cannot seize the dealers records or remove them from the premises unless the dealer himself is the subject of a criminal investigation and they are executing a search warrant.

If ATF has convinced a judge that probable cause exists (that the dealer has committed a crime).......they have to get a warrant.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div5&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3&idno=27

§ 478.23 Right of entry and examination.
top
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b), any ATF officer, when there is reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred and that evidence of the violation may be found on the premises of any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, may, upon demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate and obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, enter during business hours (or, in the case of a licensed collector, the hours of operation) the premises, including places of storage, of any such licensee for the purpose of inspecting or examining:

(1) Any records or documents required to be kept by such licensee under this part and

(2) Any inventory of firearms or ammunition kept or stored by any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer at such premises or any firearms curios or relics or ammunition kept or stored by any licensed collector at such premises.

(b) Any ATF officer, without having reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred or that evidence of the violation may be found and without demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate or obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, may enter during business hours the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer for the purpose of inspecting or examining the records, documents, ammunition and firearms referred to in paragraph (a) of this section:

(1) In the course of a reasonable inquiry during the course of a criminal investigation of a person or persons other than the licensee,

(2) For insuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements of this part:

(i) Not more than once during any 12-month period, or

(ii) At any time with respect to records relating to a firearm involved in a criminal investigation that is traced to the licensee, or

(3) When such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation.

(c) Any ATF officer, without having reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred or that evidence of the violation may be found and without demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate or obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector for the purpose of inspecting or examining the records, documents, firearms, and ammunition referred to in paragraph (a) of this section (1) for ensuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements of this part not more than once during any 12-month period or (2) when such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in closest proximity to the collectors premises.

(d) The inspections and examinations provided by this section do not authorize an ATF officer to seize any records or documents other than those records or documents constituting material evidence of a violation of law. If an ATF officer seizes such records or documents, copies shall be provided the licensee within a reasonable time.

[T.D. ATF–270, 53 FR 10492, Mar. 31, 1988; as amended by T.D. ATF–363, 60 FR 17450, Apr. 6, 1995]

 

[rscalzo]

I've found that most FFLs are out of their home

The two I know in southern NH have a store in their home separate from the living area. while it might be in the bassement, it's still apart from the living areas.

There's a lot more than just having some firearms lying around. Zoning is usually the big issue.

 

[zoom6zoom]

it's separated from the rest of the home by secure doors and is used exclusively for that purpose. It's not her dining room anymore, it's her place of business ONLY. She says this does cause tax issues and her CPA costs a little more now but using your home absolutely can be done.

In a number of ways this actually simplifies the tax issues. Since the space is used exclusively for her business, it becomes a deductible business expense. If she were just using a desk in the kitchen, or the space were shared for any other purpose, it would not be.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Probably a non issue anyway since ATF pretty much stopped all the home FFL licensing a number of years ago.

Absolutely untrue ... another gun related "urban myth" that refused to die.

How do I know? I got my FFL 18 months ago, and I operate out of my home.

Do you have to have a local business license? Yep ... but you always had to. You have to be able to collect state and local sales taxes too ... but then that was also always true. You have to jump through all the local hoops =before= you deal with the ATF.

Actually, the ATF part is =easy= in terms of getting the FFL.

Doing all the record keeping, and holding those records so that you can search them to find a specific item for 20 years ....now that's a whole nuther kettle of kimchee.

 

[mgkdrgn]

it's a moot point, because the ATF is not going to give you a license to operate from your home. You will need a store front, unless something's changed that I'm not aware of.

Absolutely NOT true. And no, nothing has changed.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Probably a non issue anyway since ATF pretty much stopped all the home FFL licensing a number of years ago.

Just to address this. Way back in the olden times when Bill Clinton was President he instructed ATF to crack down on so called "kitchen table" gun dealers.

What the name really meant were dealers who had FFLs for their own use, not those trying to make a living.

When you apply for an 01 FFL you will have an interview with an ATF agent. During that interview you will tell him you plan on operating from your home. He will get much more interested at that point and you need to convince him that you are indeed going to attempt "livelihood and profit" with your business rather than just buying some guns for your friends.

The agent can absolutely deny your application based on any number of things, including the location. But, he can't deny just because it's in your home, there need to be other factors like; in the home and local ordinances prevent a business, in your home but security concerns that you can't address to his satisfaction, etc.

But he cannot deny solely based on the fact that you intend to run your business from your house. It's done all the time and many folks are quite successful at it.

 

[dogtown tom]

TexasRifleman ....During that interview you will tell him you plan on operating from your home. He will get much more interested at that point...

Since the interview is conducted at your proposed "licensed premises" he'll pretty much know whether it's your home or not.

... in your home but security concerns that you can't address to his satisfaction, etc.

There are no ATF regulations regarding security. You aren't even required to have a front door.

 

[TexasRifleman]

There are no ATF regulations regarding security. You aren't even required to have a front door.

I've been told that during the interview they ask about such things, not sure what the purpose is, or if they can deny on it, but you probably know better than me. My FFL, who works out of her home, said the agent spent a good bit of time asking about security issues. He was particularly interested in her plans to secure the business area from the rest of the home. I got mine (and since let it expire) before they did interviews so I have no personal knowledge of it, just what I've been told.

 

[taliv]

§ 923.d.1.G seems to indicate that your application will be approved if...

(G) in the case of an application to be licensed as a dealer, the applicant certifies that secure gun storage or safety devices will be available at any place in which firearms are sold under the license to persons who are not licensees (subject to the exception that in any case in which a secure gun storage or safety device is temporarily unavailable because of theft, casualty loss, consumer sales, backorders from a manufacturer, or any other similar reason beyond the control of the licensee, the dealer shall not be considered to be in violation of the requirement under this subparagraph to make available such a device).