My Disagreements with the Rabbi

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So, a few days ago was the Jewish festival of Purim. For those of you who don't know, it is the story of the book of Esther. In the Bible, it describes Esther becoming the Queen of Persia, keeping her religion and heritage secret. Having an attempted genocide against all the Jews, a man named Mordechai arming and getting a law passed that allowed the Jews to attack those who planned to kill them, and finally, executing the instigator of this attempt, an advisor to the king named Haman, and his ten sons. (well, that's the short of the story).

In our modern day, this story has inspired a Jewish "carnival" type holiday, relatively minor in the list of holidays we celebrate.

Anyway, I give you this info, because in talking to the Rabbi at my Synagogue he gave the opinion that the lesson to learn in this story is for Jews to be much more forgiving of those that try to hurt us. To him, executing Haman and his sons was overkill along with the preemptive strike the Jews made on those that tried to kill them.

This is not the first time I've heard incredibly stupid stuff come out of his mouth. My jaw dropped when he gave this opinion. I told him that this is the example that should have been followed when Hitler was getting in power.

When I said that Jews in Europe should have been armed to prevent the Holocaust, and that no Jew from now on should ever be without a weapon, we had a heated disagreement to say the least.

I know some of you here are Jewish, and frankly this is not only for you, but I want everyone's imput. What should I do?

To me, this man spit in the face of not only the victims of shoah, but of the victims of virtually every genocide attempt ever leveled against Jews. This would be like a black man advocating a return of black slavery.

Part of me wants to find a new Temple, and tell the Rabbi exactly what I think and that I'll never enter the Temple again. But, I also want to be nicer, if you will. Basically, should I chalk this up to high emotional content discussion, and try to present my beliefs again, and say to him, "Here is what I believe. You don't have to believe the same, but you're ancestors were in the Holocaust, I'm sure you can understand."

Or, do I send the nasty letter, and try to find a new Synagogue?
 
Where should he post this then...the religious section?

I think it's a very legitimate gun related story, certainly history shows us that disarming yourself is the first step in the path to destruction.

In regard to your original question, I think I would find another temple, you're Rabbi is at best naive and at worst just plain stupid. Oh and no nasty letter required, don't burn bridges when it is not necessary.
 
I just know that nobody gave me any cookies (I used to live in the center of the metro area, and now I'm out in deer-hunter territory).

Can't get a decent pastrami sammich out here either. And the other day, I ordered a bagel at the (new) local dealie, and told the girl I'd like a schmear... Got a blank stare.

Sigh...

If the Jewish folks were half as militant about firearms rights for the future as they are about bitching about the past, we wouldn't have a lot of problems that we have today...

Teach the teacher - gently. GENTLY. Logic and patience. Take your time. Be a good example. But also, do not let up.
 
well, this is interesting, being a devout gun freak, and an evangelical christian, there are actually many huge stories going on , in the story of Esther, many of which point straight to Jesus.... but that is for another day. Following years, and dates and patterns setup in the bible, especially in the Torah, there are so many parrallels in Esther , to 1933 Germany, it is quite frankly rediculous, and would any decent Rabbi, not recognize the years and dates parrallels, lest the text jump up and smack him in the face. That being said, yes the Jews of Esther's day, should have kept themselves sharp and physically active, and in shape and armed, for just such emergencies. But we all should, that being said, it is sometimes hard for us to believe a government would ever have it out for us, or sell us down the river(no Moses pun intended), until it is too late, and the kettle is allready getting hot, and we are in it.
I will paraphrase a couple of things here, Solomon, and a line from the movie, "cool hand Luke". Solomon said, 100 men sitting and talking at a table, can accomplish many things, but one man of sin destroys it all. The movie line is by the Warden, ' Some men... you jes caint reach, which is the way he wonts it; well, he ges it!' Look how many times ancient Israel begged to go back to Egypt, because knowing their life of slavery, was more comfortable to them, than to be free, yet unknowing. Your Rabbi, God bless him, believes that if we all just sit down at a table, we can reason with anybody. Sadly, there are some people out there, the men of sin(or rebellion) will NEVER agree, even if they say so. Being vigilant in a country such as ours, where we still have the ability and the right , to both keep and Bear or is it bare, which means to carry on us by the way, arms, and not use them is just foolishness, and blindness on your Rabbi's part.
 
he certainly could also be thinking of our modern day, when it is of course criminal now, to act pre-emptively, so we've been told. I suggest to you, that the western world has fought major conflicts, with other powers about once every 100 years, for 1000 years, and it takes a severe beat down, of the other peeps, to keep them off of our backs for a while. Look at us in the Philippines war, and what a young lieutenant named Pershing had to say. then go back 1000 years, and look what that maniac Ghengis khan, or according to John Kerry ' Gingzhis' Khan had to say about his warfare with a certain people. But I am getting way off topic here, you need to bring this to the rabbi's house, type situation, ' what would you do if'.... type scenario. just to see what he says. Then you will know for sure if he is totally a slave, still in Egypt, or does he have at least one free drop of blood left in him.
 
Part of me wants to find a new Temple, and tell the Rabbi exactly what I think and that I'll never enter the Temple again. But, I also want to be nicer, if you will. Basically, should I chalk this up to high emotional content discussion, and try to present my beliefs again, and say to him, "Here is what I believe. You don't have to believe the same, but you're ancestors were in the Holocaust, I'm sure you can understand."

Or, do I send the nasty letter, and try to find a new Synagogue?

Is that Temple the Rabbi's house, or God's House? Stand your ground. Make for change within, by your presence.

Wise men stood and tried for change many times in history. The Christian Bible tells us of much of it. Guess where we got that? I always said, if you want to know more about Christ, learn to read Hebrew and Greek. The Jews keep good books. And He used them. After all, he was a Jew.

It is a shame I do not follow my own words in this topic. Can't read Hebrew, or Greek. :rolleyes:

Jerry
 
That rabbi sounds like he's spewing the same sort of pacifist mushy headed thinking I hear from too many of my fellow MOT. I'd find a new synagogue.
 
If you leave, will there be anyone left to challenge his flawed teachings? Only you can decide if your personal discomfort is worth the future gain of changing his mind. Also, if the discussions are more or less public, who knows how many you may influence without even knowing.

Would it be possible to find another Temple more to your liking to visit ocassionally? Sorta split the difference.
 
CHANGING MINDS

I invited a jewish friend (I'm a recovering Catholic) to go with me to the range. His reply was,"Jews don't do guns, we do lawyers". Arguing guns is like arguing religion...everyone has their own opinion that is most often set in stone. I guess the best way is to agree to disagree while keeping your beliefs in tact. The ability to voice your opinion without fear is what makes America the best place on earth to live.
 
In my opinion the man in question doesn't understand even the most fundamental aspects of Megilat Ester (The book of Esther) I think that you need to realize that whatever he is telling you, he is also "teaching" to others. The way I see it you have two choices. Walk away and neglect others who will be fed the same BS and don't know any better, or learn all that you can about the Megila and sit down with the Rabbi for an educational discussion. The latter is a much bigger obligation and will require that you are intimately familiar with both the written texts and hidden messages. I think it would be a bold and respectable move for you to enlighten the Rabbi. It may turn out that you teach him something new and by virtue of that, others will benefit by realizing that they need to be prepared.
 
The Rabbi

Sheep, Wolves, and Sheep Dogs. I got this from this board and it says it all. The Rabbi is a sheep, you are a sheep dog. I'ts your job to protect him and the other sheep from the wolf. We need sheep and sheep dogs, because there will always be wolves. Just don't let the sheep put a muzzle on the sheep dog. When the wolf shows up at his door who will he call? 911? Those sheep dogs may not get there in time. Ask him what will he do to protect his flock. If he won't do anything, will he pick and choose a sheep dog? Or will he take the closest one that can bark and bite. Stick on him like glue untill he commits to being either a sheep forever, or a part time sheep dog. O C
 
As a teacher. He is a filter. He is now clogged up with BS. Your responsibility in this matter is to stay and clean his mind. It will involve sacrifice of time and energy on your part. But if you look at the children to come to learn from him, you will know it is a good thing to do.
 
If I were a Jew, I would most certainly be armed. Thousands of years of history demands it.

Were I a Jew with a gun, I would consider it my obligation to arm those around me, both with weapons and with knowledge. Thousands of years of history demands it.

What better place to educate than the temple, and who better to teach than the Rabbi? Teach the teachers. If you can't teach directly - bring in teachers who can.

But if you look at the children to come to learn from him, you will know it is a good thing to do.
Exactly. Leaving the Rabbi's mindset unchallenged does a disservice to all that seek wisdom and comfort in the Temple.
 
Don't burn any bridges you haven't crossed yet. Finding a new place to worship isn't always as easy as it sounds at first.

pax
 
Not a Jew

but doesn't Jewish law have something to say about being responsible for the effects of your speech and actions?
What if a member of the Temple is hurt following the Rabbi's counsel of understanding?
 
Of the Jews I have known, thre are only two positions on weapons: fervently for or against. There never seemed to be a middle ground. Given the history of the Jews, I don't understand why every Jewish house doesn't keep its Menorrah on a weapons locker.
 
I once went to an orthodox synagogue where the rabbi was one of only two anti-gun men. The other man, incidentally, has since acquired a .357 revolver and went to Knob Creek to try NFA goodies. Educating the rabbi to at least a neutral position would be a very high-yield endeavor. May be difficult, but (with patience and reason), you may change his mind. Do not press for a public or even private admission from him of the change of mind. The best learning will happen within his mind, in complete privacy of his own mind.
 
I am not Jewish I am not sure about this, but is not the Temple a place where you go to learn and grow spiritually, similar to a church for Christians? If so, I think you should leave, because how can you learn and grow from a Teacher that does not understand the fundamentals of the Torah. The point of Esther is most certainly not for Jewish people to become pacifists. If you go to Temple for growth and learning then you must agree with the fundamentals of the Rabbi there. If you can not agree with them you must find a new place to go, while we might not always agree with everything we must agree with the main points.

I have found many Christian preachers and priests that have no real idea what the Bible says and many that do not believe large portions of it, so I would be willing to bet that your Rabbi is in the same position with the Torah. If that is the case then write a polite letter stating your reasons for leaving and then go somewhere where you can grow.

P.S. If any group ever needed to be armed it would be the Jewish people.
 
Why

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Quote:
Jews don't do guns, we do lawyers".

Why not both?

We do both. Some people are just stupid and speak on behalf of those that don't want to be spoken for. No matter which Rabbi says differently Jews are fighters. There have been times as in any culture where we have ignorantly stood down but that is not to say that a Jew should not defend himself.

but doesn't Jewish law have something to say about being responsible for the effects of your speech and actions?
What if a member of the Temple is hurt following the Rabbi's counsel of understanding?
Something like that, but the Rabbi in question seems to think that his opinion is the only one that counts and in that regard has no open-mindedness or awareness of reality.
 
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