Glenn Kelley
Member
Glassman,
Ask him if Uzi is Hebrew for lawyer.
Ask him if Uzi is Hebrew for lawyer.
My Disagreements with the Rabbi
- Thread starter mordechaianiliewicz
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SniperStraz
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LOL
You can add in Galil, Negev, Jericho, Bul, DE, Davidka, Barak, and a couple others too.
It's a simple question, though I admit I am probably too direct of a person to be diplomatic about it.
The question is,
Are those who "peaceably" surrendered themselves and their families to the gestapo morally superior to those who fought in the Warsaw ghetto or who fought the nazis as part of the various allied armies?
By not resisting, those who did not also endangered others. The Warsaw uprising was the right idea, but it was done by too few, too late. The appropriate time would have been if after Kristalnacht if several jewish veterans had gone home, dusted off and loaded up that Gwehr 98, and hunted down the perpetrators and ended them.
The question is,
Are those who "peaceably" surrendered themselves and their families to the gestapo morally superior to those who fought in the Warsaw ghetto or who fought the nazis as part of the various allied armies?
By not resisting, those who did not also endangered others. The Warsaw uprising was the right idea, but it was done by too few, too late. The appropriate time would have been if after Kristalnacht if several jewish veterans had gone home, dusted off and loaded up that Gwehr 98, and hunted down the perpetrators and ended them.
axeman_g
Member
I am an Italian Catholic, growing up in an area of NJ that is very Jewish. For the life of me there are a few things about my Jewish friends and neighbors that I will never understood.
1) How they could ever advocate pacifism in the face of the amount of hatred the Jews face.
2) Voting Democratic. I always thought less government would be a Jewish doctrine by now.
3) Buying or driving a German car. Sorry, this one will get me flamed, but BMW, Benz, Audi and Porsche were all involved in the Nazi war machine. That does not mean they were involved in the holocaust, but bouycotts of companies have been performed for less.
4) Choose to be anti gun!
1) How they could ever advocate pacifism in the face of the amount of hatred the Jews face.
2) Voting Democratic. I always thought less government would be a Jewish doctrine by now.
3) Buying or driving a German car. Sorry, this one will get me flamed, but BMW, Benz, Audi and Porsche were all involved in the Nazi war machine. That does not mean they were involved in the holocaust, but bouycotts of companies have been performed for less.
4) Choose to be anti gun!
lee n. field
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What-ever. This was the 4th century BC Persian Empire, not the 21th century rabbit people West. Overkill was just the way things were back then.
That can be difficult to do for a Christian, even with a church every couple blocks, because there's so much out there that isn't very sound. With, what?, 15 million total Jews worldwide, I suspect it's going to be quite a bit harder to find an acceptable synagogue in "Western Misery".
A "take your rabbi to the range" day?
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
Keep in mind that Rabbi's view may have been aimed more at domestic interactions (i.e. be forgiving of your family members) or some other real-world application, not at gun rights. However, do educate him on the topic politely and without much pressure. Better yet, have your spouse do it.
george29
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I know this answer is going to get me flamed, and it may not be very High-Road, but here goes.
According to Judaism and Christianity, during the Revelation (what Jews call Gog UmaGog), 2/3 of the world will be destroyed (Muslim belief is very similar), well where do you think these 2/3rd are coming from if not the Sheeple? The Wolves will be preying, the Sheepdogs fighting back, and the Sheep will be going Baaaa as they are eaten.
I was brought up in a home where mom is Jewish, Dad considered himself a Hebrew. I couldn't figure the difference until long after I was studying to become Ordained. In order to understand the difference, one must look at the political situation in Israel, which is in fact a reinactment of the times of Jesus trial by the Sanhedrin, which was in fact a crooked Sanhedrin that was totally politicized by Saducees and Pharisees. Call them what you want in todays terms but I see them as those that were/are pro-God's way and those that were/are pro-Man's way. The early Christians were Hebrews, those Jews that were Pro-God's ways were also Hebrew. Jew's, both then and now, are a mixture of what are called Erev Rav, and are the ones that have always instigated against God, such as the Golden Calf.
Your Rabbi sounds like one of the many Erev Rav whose lineage is uncertain, he may be of tainted Hebrew descent, he may be of Tainted Jewish descent, whichever the case, he is tainted, for the Old Testament, the one that is Revered by today's Jews, commands for a person to defend himself, and we learn this from the passage in Exodus, where it is written that Moses "looked here, then there before he smote the Egyptian" , in Hebrew, "Veyeephen Koh vecho......vayach et hamitzri...." Exodus 1:12
Tell your ''Rabbi'', that if spouts lies, at least let him not do so in the name of the God that he is supposed to represent. I personally am of the school of thought of Rabbi Josie Wales, "Buzzard gotta eat, same as worm".
According to Judaism and Christianity, during the Revelation (what Jews call Gog UmaGog), 2/3 of the world will be destroyed (Muslim belief is very similar), well where do you think these 2/3rd are coming from if not the Sheeple? The Wolves will be preying, the Sheepdogs fighting back, and the Sheep will be going Baaaa as they are eaten.
I was brought up in a home where mom is Jewish, Dad considered himself a Hebrew. I couldn't figure the difference until long after I was studying to become Ordained. In order to understand the difference, one must look at the political situation in Israel, which is in fact a reinactment of the times of Jesus trial by the Sanhedrin, which was in fact a crooked Sanhedrin that was totally politicized by Saducees and Pharisees. Call them what you want in todays terms but I see them as those that were/are pro-God's way and those that were/are pro-Man's way. The early Christians were Hebrews, those Jews that were Pro-God's ways were also Hebrew. Jew's, both then and now, are a mixture of what are called Erev Rav, and are the ones that have always instigated against God, such as the Golden Calf.
Your Rabbi sounds like one of the many Erev Rav whose lineage is uncertain, he may be of tainted Hebrew descent, he may be of Tainted Jewish descent, whichever the case, he is tainted, for the Old Testament, the one that is Revered by today's Jews, commands for a person to defend himself, and we learn this from the passage in Exodus, where it is written that Moses "looked here, then there before he smote the Egyptian" , in Hebrew, "Veyeephen Koh vecho......vayach et hamitzri...." Exodus 1:12
Tell your ''Rabbi'', that if spouts lies, at least let him not do so in the name of the God that he is supposed to represent. I personally am of the school of thought of Rabbi Josie Wales, "Buzzard gotta eat, same as worm".
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ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Survival Policy
For many years I worked with a group whose message included tolerance and understanding.
The group's policies, however, were written with the knowledge that, not only would some fail to agree with us, there were folks dedicated to our elimination. It was well understood that none of the good we did could be accomplished if we ceased to exist.
Therefore considerable care was taken to ensure that our legal foundations were well secured and that we were at all times vigilant to PR attacks, as well as more subtle attempts.
There is one line in a memo that has stuck with me in the years since: "Never let an attack go unanswered."
It felt kinda odd working with a group whose entire mission was humanitarian but which was continually the object of concerted efforts to wipe it out.
It gives a guy some context.
Israel exists and persists today because of the gun, not the lawyer.
It is not the duty of the Jews to aid in their own extermination.
Those who would exterminate are not open to reason, and the kind of extermination they attempt is not simply the "elimination of business competition" through lawsuits and such.
Sure, keep a lawyer. They're good for the more subtle attacks.
You'll also be needing something for the less subtle attacks from the barbarians who don't care about the "civilized" rules of the game.
The man who wants to kill you doesn't care about lawyers. He cares about your ability to physically resist him.
Never give up the ability to physically resist.
Never let an attack go unanswered.
This Rabbi? The teacher can learn. What looks like civilization around him hides barbarians and murderers for whom subtleties count not.
If it transpires that this Rabbi is simply too committed to pacifism, to non-violence even in the face of his own destruction, then it's time to move on. Some can't be saved.
You've got some excellent comments from others. Remarks by rbernie, bogie, CrawdaddyJim, and others.
Especially Oleg's observation:
In the end, the lives of an entire people are on the line.
This is no time to get squishy. There's too much at stake.
Teach the Rabbi. Gently but firmly.
For many years I worked with a group whose message included tolerance and understanding.
The group's policies, however, were written with the knowledge that, not only would some fail to agree with us, there were folks dedicated to our elimination. It was well understood that none of the good we did could be accomplished if we ceased to exist.
Therefore considerable care was taken to ensure that our legal foundations were well secured and that we were at all times vigilant to PR attacks, as well as more subtle attempts.
There is one line in a memo that has stuck with me in the years since: "Never let an attack go unanswered."
It felt kinda odd working with a group whose entire mission was humanitarian but which was continually the object of concerted efforts to wipe it out.
It gives a guy some context.
Israel exists and persists today because of the gun, not the lawyer.
It is not the duty of the Jews to aid in their own extermination.
Those who would exterminate are not open to reason, and the kind of extermination they attempt is not simply the "elimination of business competition" through lawsuits and such.
Sure, keep a lawyer. They're good for the more subtle attacks.
You'll also be needing something for the less subtle attacks from the barbarians who don't care about the "civilized" rules of the game.
The man who wants to kill you doesn't care about lawyers. He cares about your ability to physically resist him.
Never give up the ability to physically resist.
Never let an attack go unanswered.
This Rabbi? The teacher can learn. What looks like civilization around him hides barbarians and murderers for whom subtleties count not.
If it transpires that this Rabbi is simply too committed to pacifism, to non-violence even in the face of his own destruction, then it's time to move on. Some can't be saved.
You've got some excellent comments from others. Remarks by rbernie, bogie, CrawdaddyJim, and others.
Especially Oleg's observation:
In the end, the lives of an entire people are on the line.
This is no time to get squishy. There's too much at stake.
Teach the Rabbi. Gently but firmly.
bogie
Member
I think this is more of a societal problem than a religious problem.
MANY segments, not limited to religious groups, are very removed from reality. There's television and the rest of the mainstream media. There's the carefully controlled work and home environments. They've become theoreticians instead of practitioners. To these folks, what we see as "denial" is merely the way they see the world.
Often it takes a life-changing circumstance to change them. And they do not like to be scared. In fact, if you scare them, whether or not your message is meant for their well-being, they will see YOU as a problem.
We have to gently guide these folks. Help them relearn how to think for themselves.
Carry a small gun to church. Sooner or later you're gonna be in a situation where the Rabbi will ask you to walk someone to their car after dark, something like that. It'll take some time. But that's when you know you're making an impression.
MANY segments, not limited to religious groups, are very removed from reality. There's television and the rest of the mainstream media. There's the carefully controlled work and home environments. They've become theoreticians instead of practitioners. To these folks, what we see as "denial" is merely the way they see the world.
Often it takes a life-changing circumstance to change them. And they do not like to be scared. In fact, if you scare them, whether or not your message is meant for their well-being, they will see YOU as a problem.
We have to gently guide these folks. Help them relearn how to think for themselves.
Carry a small gun to church. Sooner or later you're gonna be in a situation where the Rabbi will ask you to walk someone to their car after dark, something like that. It'll take some time. But that's when you know you're making an impression.
OK- hold your fire please ! I have often wondered if there was a genetic or cultural split in the Jewish people after the war- As in, the ones who were prepared to fight went to Israel , and the ones who were not came to the USA, bolstered by the ones here who did not have to confront the Gestapo.
Sort of like wondering if the huge losses during WW1 and WW2 may have helped to eliminate the "aggressive" people in France.
And on a side note about the German cars-- How in the hell did a car created with the blessing of Hitler become the darling vehicle of the hippie/leftist crowd? I speak of the VW, of course.
Sort of like wondering if the huge losses during WW1 and WW2 may have helped to eliminate the "aggressive" people in France.
And on a side note about the German cars-- How in the hell did a car created with the blessing of Hitler become the darling vehicle of the hippie/leftist crowd? I speak of the VW, of course.
mordechaianiliewicz
Member
Uh, no Tokugawa. The Jews in America like the French in France are too often in love with Socialist policies dressed up to look like government sponsored charity. That is what the problem is.
Thanks for the imput people.
I have looked at other places. But, I am Reform. I have considered a Conservative Shul close to me. But, I ain't a Conservative Jew. While I often agree with the Conservatives, my conduct and lifestyle is that of a Reform Jew. I don't follow the dietary restictions properly (I follow closer the Halal of Islam than the Halachik of Judaism). I don't see alot of the things in Jusdaism with a political eye that many Conservatives see it.
I still don't know. But it has weighed heavily on me. The "violence is not the answer" crowd gets my goat. Against the enemies of the Jewish people, traditionally brutal and utter violence has saved the most lives. And it will be dificult to attempt talking to the Rabbi on that point seeing as how he is definitely in the kum-bye-ya camp.
Thanks for the imput people.
I have looked at other places. But, I am Reform. I have considered a Conservative Shul close to me. But, I ain't a Conservative Jew. While I often agree with the Conservatives, my conduct and lifestyle is that of a Reform Jew. I don't follow the dietary restictions properly (I follow closer the Halal of Islam than the Halachik of Judaism). I don't see alot of the things in Jusdaism with a political eye that many Conservatives see it.
I still don't know. But it has weighed heavily on me. The "violence is not the answer" crowd gets my goat. Against the enemies of the Jewish people, traditionally brutal and utter violence has saved the most lives. And it will be dificult to attempt talking to the Rabbi on that point seeing as how he is definitely in the kum-bye-ya camp.
PennsyPlinker
Member
Instruct him using the Tannach. Throughout the history recorded in what we Christians call the Old Testament, there are plenty of examples of God instructing the Hebrew people to use force. Look at Moses and the people in the wilderness. Look at the whole book of Joshua. Go all the way back to when Abraham rescued Lot with 318 trained servants! These guys weren't just a bunch of shepherds with pikes, they were trained soldiers! Remind him that one of the names of God is El Shaddai, Lord of Hosts, and host does not mean the person who seats people at the restaurant. Remind him of Nehemiah building the wall around Jerusalem, when the men worked with one hand and carried their spear with the other. The list goes on and on, but if he is any sort of rabbi, he must admit that violence, or at least the preparation to do violence, is a necessary part of staying alive, and a well established part of your culture and history.
PennsyPlinker
Member
mordechaianiliewicz said:
Perhaps you should consider becoming a Messianic Jew! That way you can have the best of all possible worlds. Keep your gun, ham sandwiches on Saturday afternoon, and all that. And the retirement plan is out of this world!
Nitrogen
Member
Jewish history is one of the many reasons I am involved in RKBA.
(See my sig for instance)
(See my sig for instance)
ezypikns
Member
My wife is Jewish.
And I have been attending a reform temple with her for the last fifteen years. From my very limited perspective, you may have trouble finding a reform temple where the Rabbi agrees with your views. Most of our friends are from temple also. Most are older, and very liberal on the surface. I believe Reform Judaism has always had that tone. But if you're comfortable there, maybe you should stay and try to gently educate others in order to counter the Rabbl's attitudes.
And I have been attending a reform temple with her for the last fifteen years. From my very limited perspective, you may have trouble finding a reform temple where the Rabbi agrees with your views. Most of our friends are from temple also. Most are older, and very liberal on the surface. I believe Reform Judaism has always had that tone. But if you're comfortable there, maybe you should stay and try to gently educate others in order to counter the Rabbl's attitudes.
I was brought up in an Orthodox shul. Many of my peers, the people I grew up with, don't understand why I have firearms. I try to explain, that first I have a true interest in them, but just as importantly, I feel that we (everyone, not just jews) need to be able to defend ourselves and our families. Part of this certainly comes from my upbringing and the events in WWII. But also, the way my parents raised us ( I have 3 siblings) that you can't depend on anyone other than your family and closest friends to be there for you. (sometimes even the friends won't be there.) It's a matter of self reliance. My siblings and I just weren't raised to be sheep. So much so, that my nephew felt it important to join the Marines after 9/11. He felt a responsibility to serve his country.
I believe your rabbi had good intentions, (Peace to all men) unfortunately, it will be people like us, that if bad things began to happen, would be the ones trying to protect him and people like him. Like most things in life, if this rabbi isn't fulfulling your needs from him as a rabbi, then you probably should find one that does. Rabbis are educated in the bible, and as councelors. That doesn't mean they have all of the answers, just the ones in there chosen area of expertise.
Just my 2 cents
I believe your rabbi had good intentions, (Peace to all men) unfortunately, it will be people like us, that if bad things began to happen, would be the ones trying to protect him and people like him. Like most things in life, if this rabbi isn't fulfulling your needs from him as a rabbi, then you probably should find one that does. Rabbis are educated in the bible, and as councelors. That doesn't mean they have all of the answers, just the ones in there chosen area of expertise.
Just my 2 cents
James T Thomas
Member
never again!
I believe that the Rabbi should refresh his historical memory by reading the story about Deborah and Barak.
Part of the scriptures there state:"Not one shield or spear could be found amoung fourtythousand in Israel."
I wonder if that ratio has changed even here in the land of the free?
I believe that the Rabbi should refresh his historical memory by reading the story about Deborah and Barak.
Part of the scriptures there state:"Not one shield or spear could be found amoung fourtythousand in Israel."
I wonder if that ratio has changed even here in the land of the free?
ezypikns
Member
One reason you may not find so many firearms owners among the Jewish population....
is that hunting is proscribed by Jewish law. The death of any animal must be in the quickest and least painful manner (or so I have read). Hunting may or may not fulfill this requirement, so is forbidden. Regardless of the recent controversy now raging between shooters and hunters, the tradition of hunting is how many of us were introduced to firearms. If that tradition doesn't exist in your culture, guns can be seen as dangerous and frightening. I do believe this trend is changing though (as far as firearms themselves go). We all have a responsibility for our own and our family's safety.
is that hunting is proscribed by Jewish law. The death of any animal must be in the quickest and least painful manner (or so I have read). Hunting may or may not fulfill this requirement, so is forbidden. Regardless of the recent controversy now raging between shooters and hunters, the tradition of hunting is how many of us were introduced to firearms. If that tradition doesn't exist in your culture, guns can be seen as dangerous and frightening. I do believe this trend is changing though (as far as firearms themselves go). We all have a responsibility for our own and our family's safety.
Sistema1927
Member
A perspective from a Christian:
When somebody (Haaman) builds a 75 foot tall gallows, but won't satisfied only killing the guy who ticked him off (Mordecai) and decides to obtain government sanction to kill an entire race of people (Jews in the Persian Empire) then it is time for that people to arm and engage in a preemptive strike.
I would think that the story of Esther, especially when coupled with a continuing history of anti-semitic murder rampages, would make all Jews decide that obtaining, and training with, personal arms is a good thing.
When somebody (Haaman) builds a 75 foot tall gallows, but won't satisfied only killing the guy who ticked him off (Mordecai) and decides to obtain government sanction to kill an entire race of people (Jews in the Persian Empire) then it is time for that people to arm and engage in a preemptive strike.
I would think that the story of Esther, especially when coupled with a continuing history of anti-semitic murder rampages, would make all Jews decide that obtaining, and training with, personal arms is a good thing.
Just so I am clear as to what the Rabbi may have been thinking...
Had an actual strike been made against the Jews prior to their strike? I ask this because of the use of the term "preemptive."
If so, I am not certian that I disagree with him. Forgive me if I am a bit rusty on Middle Eastern history, and that being non-Jewish, I haven't been as exposed to these teachings.
However, if one has been killed when no strike has been made, it is called Murder. If one says inflamitory things or has views that you consider vile, it is not a basis for a preemtive murdering of that person. Period.
If a strike or assualt HAD occured prior to the Jewish strike, it isn't preemptive... it is retalitory. Some could argue the ethics of that on various levels, but I consider a retalitory strike to be closer to ethically sound than a preemptive one based on what someone MAY do.
That said, as always I believe in being prepared for the event of another Hitler-like person. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Israeli weapons have a stamping of something to the effect of "Never Forget" on them? I have seen that one a few. If so, I'd consider that a wise comment for anyone. But killing someone because they have expressed a dislike for you or your people is hardly something someone could put through the ethical evaluation "ropes" and come up with an acceptible answer.
If so, folks really ought to start thinking about what they say. Me thinks that a lot of comedians may start looking for new careers if preemptive strikes become acceptible in our ethos.
John
As to my background, I'm a Christian (Baptist) whose father was a minister. I've had Jewish (both Reform & Orthodox) friends all of my life and my father also had Jewish friends. He would have coffee every week with Abe Rosenswieg who had a dry goods store. When I was young, I'd go with dad some times and it was amazing the religious and political discussions they would have. The gun and defense problem is also common among Christian leaders and manifest itself in the same way that you are encountering. There does not seem to be much hope that these differences are going to change. As someone else has pointed out, it's a lot easier to change to an another evangelical church than to another synogouge.
I would try to maintain a relationship with the Rabbi, even if it has to be an arms length one, in hope that some event might occur that would change the balance and make him more open. Don't give up your relgious beliefs and back away from some kind of worship because of this Rabbi. Have you thought about organizing a Jewish group that is dedicated to educating others about your views and to illuminate them? I was heavily involved in an organization name Global Srategies for Religious Liberty that worked for elemination of ethnic cleansing as well as some work in Macedonia on Muslim and Jewish relations. It fell apart after 9/11 but accomplished a lot prior to that.
Just a thought.
I would try to maintain a relationship with the Rabbi, even if it has to be an arms length one, in hope that some event might occur that would change the balance and make him more open. Don't give up your relgious beliefs and back away from some kind of worship because of this Rabbi. Have you thought about organizing a Jewish group that is dedicated to educating others about your views and to illuminate them? I was heavily involved in an organization name Global Srategies for Religious Liberty that worked for elemination of ethnic cleansing as well as some work in Macedonia on Muslim and Jewish relations. It fell apart after 9/11 but accomplished a lot prior to that.
Just a thought.
Glockfan.45
member
UZI, Gali, Negav, and Tavor no I think Jews do guns.Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Our Reform Congregation had been harassed by some so called Christians during the High Holidays. The Rabbi asked me to provide some measure of security during services.
I did. One time he asked why I was situated where I was instead of sitting with my family. I replied, "Clear field of fire". He nodded thoughtfully and walked away.
The Cantor ( a great guy) and I were talking about guns. He had been going to an indoor range with another member of the Schul and shooting 22s and 38s. He bought a Model 64 and loves it.
To quote him," Any Jew who, at the start of the Century after the bloodiest Century ever, remains unarmed by choice has learned absolutely nothing".....
I did. One time he asked why I was situated where I was instead of sitting with my family. I replied, "Clear field of fire". He nodded thoughtfully and walked away.
The Cantor ( a great guy) and I were talking about guns. He had been going to an indoor range with another member of the Schul and shooting 22s and 38s. He bought a Model 64 and loves it.
To quote him," Any Jew who, at the start of the Century after the bloodiest Century ever, remains unarmed by choice has learned absolutely nothing".....
CrawdaddyJim
Member
Slightly off topic but...I wish to respond
"But killing someone because they have expressed a dislike for you or your people is hardly something someone could put through the ethical evaluation "ropes" and come up with an acceptable answer."
If a man comes up to you and tells you he will do you harm. You should take him at his word and act accordingly. To do nothing is to harm your family and children if you have them. According to the story in the Torah. Mordecia was condemned by Haman to death on the gallows. And then decided he would go for broke and eliminate all of the Jewish peoples. We are not talking about some street thug here. The man was in a position of power. He said he was gonna kill them all. I would take him at his word and act to end his ability to follow through on his threat.
"But killing someone because they have expressed a dislike for you or your people is hardly something someone could put through the ethical evaluation "ropes" and come up with an acceptable answer."
If a man comes up to you and tells you he will do you harm. You should take him at his word and act accordingly. To do nothing is to harm your family and children if you have them. According to the story in the Torah. Mordecia was condemned by Haman to death on the gallows. And then decided he would go for broke and eliminate all of the Jewish peoples. We are not talking about some street thug here. The man was in a position of power. He said he was gonna kill them all. I would take him at his word and act to end his ability to follow through on his threat.
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