My experience with shooting on impulse

[gamestalker]

My Son's and I do a lot of S.D. shooting practice and have discovered that by looking at the target first and then pointing the firearm at what we are looking at is not only a quicker, but it has proven for us to be far more accurate method.
While standing at varied distances ranging from 25' to 50' from a 6" target we were consistently hitting center mass, as compared to sighting the target which was much slower, and was more difficult to get consistent hits. I think of it as instinctive shooting and learned it from my oldest Son who is in LE. As he said, you simply don't often have time in a quick response situation to look down your sights because you are focussing your eyes on the perpetrator, which is where you need to be focussed.
Try it next time you do some simulated SD shooting. It can be difficult to get used to, but once you become accustomed to trusting your instincts, your brain will automatically point the weapon directly at the target if you resist the temptation to use the sights. Of course a laser sight can help to eliminate the time it takes to consistently aquire the target, but not all of us can afford those expensive sights.
My first experience with this was with a shotgun. I was hitting dove from the hip with very little practice. One day I shot 2 separate ducks from the hip at extremely long range and didn't look down the barrel on either one. It's amazing what our brain can accomplish if we just relax and let our arms do what actually comes natural.
Use the force!
"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away!"

 

[Al Thompson]

looking at the target first and then pointing the firearm at what we are looking at

Where is the gun in relation to your line of sight?

far more accurate method

More accurate than what? Not trying to be rude, but have you taken any formal training that exposed you to more up to date techniques?

LE in this state has abysmal firearms training. I would not depend on anything much coming from a LE environment. Remember, it was Jeff Cooper that got folks using two hands on their handguns in spite of LE still teaching PPC belt buckle shooting.

 

[gamestalker]

My Son is not in local LE or state LE, he's a Fed and has had advanced tactical training. His trainng is far mroe advanced than what these guys are doing locally, and I have been fortunate enough to have his personal attention training me.
The instinctive motion involves lookign directly at the target and then allowing your arm to swing to that exact spot you are lookiing at, in this case it would be the center of the target. It's almost the exact same thing as shooting from the hip, but is actually a bit easier because your weapon is at shoulder level rather than down at your side as with a hip shot with a shotgun. Try it before you judge it.

 

[Bobson]

You mean point-shooting. I had read that some police depts were actually considering removing any and all iron sights from their issued handguns. I have mixed feelings on that, but I've heard excellent things about PS.

 

[Onward Allusion]

gamestalker
My experience with shooting on impulse

Point shooting is not too difficult to master especially if the same pistol is used time and time again. Point shooting with a laser in conjunction with dry-firing also flattens the learning curve.

 

[gamestalker]

Indeed a laser does help the learning curve, 10-4 to that. But as I indicated previously, not everyone has that kind of money so we need to practuce, practice, and then practice point shooting until we are proficient. In this respect, point shooting is very beneficial in a SD circumstance because of the instinctive element of the situation we're in. Our own physical chemistry is so effected by those type circumstances that for most, mtself included, the sights become a distraction and can delay our response, and may in fact cost us our life.

 

[mortablunt]

I need to practice that. I've got great snap on targets skills, but my hip fire is very bad.

 

[Al Thompson]

that for most, myself included, the sights become a distraction and can delay our response

Strangely enough, absolutely no main stream trainers agree with this idea. Depending on target range, use as much sights as you need. No matter if it's Jeff Cooper with his "flash sight picture" or Rob Pincus with his "Target Focus", use of the sights gets hits under stress. Tom Givens has an excellent presentation on several failures of good guys who didn't reference their sights in a fight and lost. A prime example is the FBI agent in the Miami shootout. While brave as can be, he missed one of the bad guys at about 8 feet six times.

my hip fire is very bad

Hip shooting is a very perishable skill. Several years ago, I worked quite hard at point shooting and got decent about actually, you know, hitting an 8 inch steel plate at 10 yards. Running a shot timer convinced me that while it was slightly faster per shot, consistent hits in a string (NSR) required some knowledge of where the front sight was in relation to the target.

I spent a few hours years ago watching Bob Munden hip shooting in person. I am convinced that like Thell Reed and most professional athletes, those folks are just wired differently than most of us. Fun to watch, bad to use as an example.

I've heard excellent things about PS

Hearing is about all you'll get on PS. Try finding data. Find someone who is an active competitor in handgun sports who has no sights on their handgun. Won't happen.

Try it before you judge it

Ever occur to you that some of us old guys have been there and done that? Try getting some training or shoot on an actual course of fire with a shot timer and a target you can't track and get back to me.

 

[JoeSlomo]

Try getting some training or shoot on an actual course of fire with a shot timer and a target you can't track....

Ditto.

I would HIGHLY recommend you find a local U.S.P.S.A. club and go run a match, or at least watch a match. The speed and accuracy you will see doesn't come from NOT using the sights.

Check out this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ittPdvXEzyo&feature=related

2011 single stack nationals.

Some of the best and fastest shooters in the world all using irons.

 

[gamestalker]

How the heck did this turn into a competitive match discussion? I'm referring to utilizing a natural skill at a time when we don't have the luxury of irons. It's about hon zoneing our survival shooting skills to the extent we become mroe confident. What about our sights becoming inoperable in the middle of a fight for your life they are broken off and you have to shoot the bad guy before he shoots you. Oh I guess you just give up because those bumpy things on top aren't there any more, or the lighting is such that the sights aren't of any use. The sights not being visable enough to use at all is very common.
Competitive shoots and training shoots are great and a very necessary part of preparation, but they aren't the only options available to us. Sometimes we just have to expect the unexpected circumstances and work through them with what we have, our instincts. But we aren't normally going to be worth a darn with those insticts if we don't practice.

 

[BullfrogKen]

But we aren't normally going to be worth a darn with those insticts if we don't practice.

Practice what?


Those who learn to use their sights with accuracy at speed also gain the ability to shoot at a reasonable distance without sights, accurately and at speed.

Once a shooter has enough good, quality time on the trigger he learns what he needs to see the break the shot, and what he doesn't. He learns how much he's got to dress up the sights and finesse the trigger to make the hit, or avoid hitting something or someone he doesn't want to.

The muscle memory, ability, and knowledge to make some shots without the use of sights comes with learning the proper way to shoot first.


All due respect to your son, but I don't put much stock into any department-sanctioned firearms training. It's taught to the lowest common denominator of the person on the force. And there are a LOT of people carrying guns within the Federal government who have no clue when it comes to things firearms-related.

 

[9mmepiphany]

How the heck did this turn into a competitive match discussion?

I think it naturally turns in this direction because it is the ultimate proving ground for shooting techniques with quantifiable measurements/results.

While we may learn lesson from actual shootings, they are not always reliable as the reporter is seldom objective and their perception is usually distorted by the reaction of the bodies under stress...they are really most useful to establish trends and tendencies.

The inertia of Federal LE training is much worst than local or regional training, with the only advantage being that they have more money to spend in testing and more data collection points. Their ability to evaluate evolving techniques badly trails the competitive environment.

And just to establish where I am posting from. I have tried point shooting...real point shooting, from the hip...and I'm not bad, but it isn't something I would default to if I had the option. Even Thell Reed, who I consider a superior hip shooter than Munden, uses his sights when shooting other than as a demo.

What it sounds like you are referring to is what the FBI used to call Point Shoulder (back in the 70s). The common wisdom is if you have time to bring your gun up to shoulder height, you're actually spending more energy to not look at the sights while not shooting any faster. If you are taking more time to see your sights, you aren't seeing at them in the most efficient way. BTW: the mostr efficient way to learn to shoot Point Shoulder is by practicing Sighted Fire...they proved that back in the 80s

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I'm referring to utilizing a natural skill...

In any case, relying on what is "natural" is overrated. Often what is natural or instinctive is not best or even correct. Training and practice is largely about overcoming what is natural or instinctive and learning instead to automatically do what is best or most appropriate.

For example, when driving a car, one's instinctive reaction in the event of a skid is to apply the brakes. We know that is the wrong thing to do; and so, if one is lucky enough to get some training in high speed driving, one learns to stay off the brake, turn into the skid and, under some circumstances, even gently apply some throttle.

Many of the more complex tasks we learn do without conscious thought aren't really instinctive or natural; they are, rather, reflexive. They are not innate responses we are born with. Rather, they are habitual responses developed and conditioned by training and practice

 

[Fred Fuller]

I'm referring to utilizing a natural skill at a time when we don't have the luxury of irons.

My favorite Army shrink, Dr. Scott Peck, was asked about human nature once upon a time. His answer was, "Human nature is to go to the bathroom in your pants." Toilet training is LEARNED, not natural.

So is shooting in any form, style or fashion... well, maybe except for misses. Misses are often pretty "natural."

lpl

 

[Chris Rhines]

Something I would like to see from the point-shooting/instinctive/hip-shooting proponents is some hard data on speed, distance, and target size.

For instance, "From concealment, I can draw and fire two shots into an 8" plate at five yards, in under 1.2 seconds, cold."

If the point-shooters could post the kind of results that they are getting, then the rest of us could evaluate those results as compared to our own performance, and decide whether point shooting is a useful tool to have in the toolbox.

-C

 

[Plan2Live]

Al Thompson took the time to work with me at a local range a month or so ago so I know from firsthand experience that he has some expetise to back up his opinions.

With that said, and no offense to Al, I have actually been practicing both instinctive shooting and the techniques Al showed me. In a real world gunfight, if I have the luxury of time I will use the sights. If up close and no time, I will resort to instincitve shooting.

My logic in believing I can effectively shoot instictively comes from my days of playing tennis. When I would hit the ball with the racket I would look at the ball (target) not the racket (sights). Just my theory.

 

[9mmepiphany]

When I would hit the ball with the racket I would look at the ball (target) not the racket (sights). Just my theory.

The correct analogy would be the ball being the bullet and the racket being the gun...the target is where you want the ball to go, the sights are your eyes (which direct the positioning of your body)

 

[1stmarine]

This is very true. If anyone is thinking about sights might be too late.
If you have shot clays or birds for sport you know this instinctively done. You cannot process and calculate leads and where you should float the target, this comes out naturally with repetition.
I mentor new shooters in several disciplines and actual in lesson nr. one in skeet I have new shooters shoot "with their finger". You grab your pointing arm with the other arm and move your torso to track the targets all the way. This way we shoot virtually in our minds the entire round. so we are not really shooting but we are tracking the targets and braking them in our heads.

So now, how this applies to a tactical situation is very similar. In fact in tactical situations you must have extra situational awareness and still train with both hands independently, with both eyes independently, from the floor, etc.. all designed to train injury situation and to condition the body and brain to fight with what you have and not to loose focus in the target. As important as not to loose focus in the target is not to loose focus or how easy of a target you are. Shooting while you move seeking for cover is one of the practices we encourage more to folks. Many times a LEO gets shot while looking for cover and then later to find out he had a full clip in the firearm.
The target is what it matters not the sights and through repetition the brain does the rest. I have had my sometimes huge sights removed from all my shotguns and handguns. All those huge glowing red hot sights they are gone. They are distractions. Like in skeet we are pointing we are not aiming, get your proper posture, track, focus on the target and let the repetition do the rest.

If we are shooting a carbine or a rifle at 300 yards then we are aiming, probably taking our time to identify the target and calculate the bullet dope. A well placed shot is better than 100 w/o control.

That is very different than the clays and the Defensive pistol world.

Normally our biggest obstacle as shooters of these disciplines is these are perishable skills and we need to fight constantly with ourselves, the state of mind, the bad habits, as these can only be corrected with review, repetition and discipline. unfortunately also today the price of ammo is not helping.

Fight as you learn.

 

[Al Thompson]

I have had my sometimes huge sights removed from all my shotguns and handguns. All those huge glowing red hot sights they are gone. They are distractions.

So, you have no sights on any of your handguns? How did that work with the revolvers?

Like in skeet we are pointing we are not aiming,

Completely disagree. If I'm with-in 6 feet of the bad guy(s), that handgun is going to be tucked in hard at chest level. I want those non-aimed, but body indexed shots to hit above the diaphragm, not gut shots. As the range extends, my refinement of stance/sight alignment/trigger control is allowed to improve.

Part of the beauty of the 4 count draw stroke is that it allows you to fight from step one. It also allows you to take as refined a shot as you need.

As for bad guys and distances, you don't get to pick the distance or circumstances. As Tom Givens writes, "typically, you won't be informed of such until the last minute". IIRC, while a majority of his students had close range gunfights, two that I recall were at ranges exceeding 10 yards and one at about 27 yards.

Let me know how that "no sights and point shooting" scheme works at range.

 

[JoeSlomo]

If you have shot clays or birds for sport you know this instinctively done.

I've shot trap and skeet, and there was nothing "instinctive" about it. My performance didn't improve until I learned how to AIM the shotgun properly. The aiming technique differs from slow aimed fire in that the aiming reference (barrel bead, or barrel rib on the shotgun) is used in an unfocused manner on the focused target, but it is STILL used. This is NOT instinctive by any means, as the shooter is required to undergo a deliberate visual alignment process between the gun and the target, and until they learn to "see what they need to see" using the blurred aiming reference, they won't have much success.

This approach to aiming becomes far less effective and efficient with a handgun due to the shorter bore line, and the lack of support offered by the stock on long guns. It becomes more difficult to notice misalignment errors, and those errors are compounded as range to target increases. While this approach can be used with a handgun by virtually any shooter up close, as range increases, or target size decreases, the aiming point must become more concise for efficiency and effectiveness, which means using the sight or sights to confirm alignment.

Since this approach STILL requires the use of a visual, albeit unfocused, reference, the shooter needs to bring the gun up to a point where they can SEE the barrel, and since that is the case, you might as well USE the sight or sights.

The target is what it matters not the sights and through repetition the brain does the rest.

I don't agree with that.

It is far more productive to focus on your sights to get your hits, and to call your shots based off of your sight pictures at most ranges. Shoot it until it drops, then reassess.

Enos sums it up the best IMO, "See what you need to see to make the shot...", and for most folks at most ranges, they need to see the sight or sights.

 

[Crusader103]

"I missed because I had a good sight picture" are simply not words that you are likely to hear uttered by the veteran of any gunfight.

If you do not plan to use or think that you simply won't use the sights in a real gunfight, you need to practice more, get a new instructor, or change your way of thinking. Failing to use your sights in a dynamic situation at anything beyond gun grab distance will result in sure misses and quite possibly your own demise. There is a good reason that so many police officers and armed citizens alike consistently miss at even close ranges. Too many have fallen victim to the idea that point shooting is a proper technique.

The goal of training is not to perfect what comes naturally, but to overcome what comes naturally by ingraining proper technique. Trained properly, you will respond in a manner consistent with the way you practice.

I do not believe that obtaining a good sight picture takes even one extra millisecond to achieve. I have proven it time and again to my law enforcement, military, and private course students. Nonetheless, even if it did take an extra fraction of a second your time would be well spent to ensure an accurate shot on target in contrast to a periphery hit or altogether miss.

If not ingrained as a result of poor training, point shooting is most often the result of fear or panic. It is a reaction that can be overcome through proper training. By conducting appropriate practice and obtaining proper training even a startled shooter will default to proper technique.

Finally, even for those that are proponents of the point shooting technique (which does not include many respected trainers) it cannot be disputed that the practice of proper sighted fire enables the shooter to make better hits "instinctively." The simple repetition of obtaining a proper sight picture and applying the fundamentals helps to ensure hits under less than ideal conditions.

To the OP, no disrespect to your son but law enforcement officers are not viewed by those in the firearms community as the go to source for advanced gunfighting tactics. For those officers that do not receive (or seek on their own) advanced training, what they do receive is basic to say the least. - I have over 10 years of law enforcement experience, including as a federal agent. I am also a master class competitive shooter and trainer of advanced tactics that gets to reach those lucky few who get to partake in training beyond the minimums. I do not know of a single accomplished shooter that would recommend point/instinctive shooting over sighted fire.

 

[Mike1234567]

If you just need a laser to practice with I'd think one of those inexpensive ones would do just fine. You can find them for about $30 delivered. I don't think I'd trust one to save my life but for practice? Sure. However, I've read that they have loose windage/elevation screws so you'll need to use some Locktite.

 

[1stmarine]

You folks I didn't remove the sights ok? I had them replaced by tiny sights that do no interfere with the target picture. Those huge glowing sight in the shotguns are a distraction. I understand if they work for some but not for me. Rarely you will see anyone hight in the rankings with one of those apparatus.
Same thing in the revolver, small and simple is the way to go. Again this is for me.
Regarding the shotgun you do not AIM you POINT. everyone knows what that is.

"Too many have fallen victim to the idea that point shooting is a proper technique."

Point shooting without the proper technique is a disaster I agree. The posture is what it matters no matter what the situation need to lock head and barrel welded in the same direction.
My technique allows me to move quickly by only using the hips and lower torso. The shoulders are locked in.

I would say try different techniques and stick with what works for you and repeat. after 200K rounds of the same effective techinique you should see where the bullet hits before it does, any range any
angle. That is called positive impact visualization.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....If you do not plan to use or think that you simply won't use the sights in a real gunfight, you need to practice more, get a new instructor, or change your way of thinking. Failing to use your sights in a dynamic situation at anything beyond gun grab distance will result in sure misses ...

The goal of training is not to perfect what comes naturally, but to overcome what comes naturally by ingraining proper technique. Trained properly, you will respond in a manner consistent with the way you practice.

I do not believe that obtaining a good sight picture takes even one extra millisecond to achieve. I have proven it time and again...

I know that in class I've been able to step, draw and put two rounds COM on target at 7 yards, using my sights. And in the most recent class I attended, we used turning targets -- making the cue to engage a visual signal and putting a hard limit on the time window in which to engage. I'm also no longer young and no longer have a young man's reflexes or vision.

...If you have shot clays or birds for sport you know this instinctively done...

No, it is not instinctive. It is reflexive. Instinct is something we are born with. If wingshooting were instinctive, it would not have to be learned. But it does have to be learned and practiced correctly to become reflexive, i. e., done without conscious thought.

It's also different from shooting a handgun. Among other things, one's wingshooting performance is significantly influenced by gun fit. A properly fitted shotgun "shoots where one is looking." And that's what allows one to properly focus on the flying target.

And yes, I have some experience wingshooting. I shot competitive ATA registered trap for a number of years and was one of the coaches of our club's youth (SCTP) trap team that won our State championship.

...I have had my sometimes huge sights removed from all my shotguns ....

I agree that I wouldn't want large or bright sights on a shotgun used for clay targets or wingshooting. They are a distraction. A small bead will suffice.

...I have had my sometimes huge sights removed from all ... handguns....

But I'll keep good, highly visible sights on my pistols. As Jeff Cooper used to say, one thing one needs on a handgun is "sights you can see." Personally, I've come to like a large gold bead on the front sight with a rear sight having a nice, wide notch. For situations in which not using them would be appropriate, I don't find them to be a distraction.

 

[1stmarine]

fiddletown,
Shotgun:
That is a better word. It is reflexive. I didn't mean instictive as innate but it is learned by small corrections and repetition.
One must learn how to let go to get better. It needs lots of instant focus and stick the head down to the stock. like the say... do not stop that barrel!

Yes! the pistol I mean something that works but guess what those huge dots do not work for me. I need something to lockup straight w/o distractions. In other works where my eye is, is where the sight should be, and guess what, it works!

All shooting disciplines have a lot to do with another. Being a marksman for many years one thing I learn is that the long range was probably the easiest to learn for me and others around me. It is tedious, expensive and you have to work hard at it, but it is more procedural and not so perishable.

In the end, like the old wise samurai said, it is one with the arrow.
(One in Zen and Aikido) is the one point, a state of mind, very strong.

Many technique are very effective. Maybe there should be one technique for each one of us as these require a lot of correction (hopefully you have good mentors and instructors) and reflexion and then repetition.
Many techniques it is harder to tame the bad habits.

So there is a lot of learning from others but the greatest learning is to learn from oneself. our own mind is our greatest partner but our greatest enemy.