My first bolt gun, Looking for advice

[horsey300]

My current club is 100yrds and there is a state range that goes to 300yrds about an hour away. So 100yrds mainly in the short term depending on how well I shoot. There is 1,000 yard range about 2 hours away but I won't join that unless I really get into this and would definitely upgrade my rifle before that.

So short answer is assume 100-300yrds.

Would throwing steel ammo down range in bulk to work on form be worth it or do I want something better to start? I would imagine even the steel stuff is going to be more consistent then me for a while. 60-70c a round for practice ammo won't kill me I already spend that on my .300blk. I would plan to reload though eventually. I already have a press that I use for pistol cartridges. So would only need to pick up the dies and rifle specific tools.

My perspective would be yes, cheap steel to work on your form would be fine, have someone watch/record you, look for your cheek weld, follow through, etc as well as watch yourself for the shot through the scope. When you KNOW group can't get any better then look to ammo upgrades. This should be about repeating the good habits and weeding out the bad with lots of repetition and criticism more than drilling a .5" group through the bullseye all day.
My brother isn't a terrible shot, but as we're testing loads for his valk one day, his groups are capital GOD awful, after the first 10 rounds I started watching him instead of the target, and his cheek was moving as much as his shots. I pointed out his error as he let me finish testing, and he immediately started kicking himself, muttering about needing to practice more and that was the nicest thing he said to himself.
Catch these types of errors before they become habits and even if your gun hates the ammo, you should still see the groups shrink. When you're no longer seeing improvement, bump up to the top 5 recommended accurate affordable loads (likely cheap hunting ammo), take the best one and practice some more. When you're down around 1.5 moa or better (hopefully a coach will be available for some of this), then premium or handloaded ammo will be able to shine.

 

[horsey300]

That rifle has an 18 inch barrel and not only will the muzzle blast be awesome, but the velocity of the bullet will be reduced so much that you might as well be throwing whiffle balls when the bullet passes 300 yards. I prefer 24 inch barrels, most factory 308's come with 22 inch barrels.

I would suggest that for the intent of getting started with a budget setup, 165-180 gr bullets should be able to perform decently to 500 yds...... I'm under the impression that for this discussion we're not looking at elr matches just for the record, but I would expect even a 180 btip to hold 2 moa out to 500 out of an 18inch barrel (wind nonwithstanding).

 

[bwalker36]

That rifle has an 18 inch barrel and not only will the muzzle blast be awesome, but the velocity of the bullet will be reduced so much that you might as well be throwing whiffle balls when the bullet passes 300 yards. I prefer 24 inch barrels, most factory 308's come with 22 inch barrels.

Yeah, the LH version is a 22" which made no sense to me. However I need a threaded barrel as this will have a can from day one. I'm open to suggestions. I was eyeing the savage 110 tactical but I loved the price of the predator to get practicing.

 

[Slamfire]

I would suggest that for the intent of getting started with a budget setup, 165-180 gr bullets should be able to perform decently to 500 yds...... I'm under the impression that for this discussion we're not looking at elr matches just for the record, but I would expect even a 180 btip to hold 2 moa out to 500 out of an 18inch barrel (wind nonwithstanding).

It will hold, on a still day..........

I wanted to get a Rattle Battle zero with 69 grain bullets in my 223 NM AR15. So I was shooting my 300 yard match ammunition at 600 yards, and just nailing the X ring. The 69 grain SMK bullet is wonderfully accurate at that distance, 10, X, X, etc, how ever, a slight pickup in the mirage, and the next round was an seven or eight at nine o'clock. After that, I decided, 75 grain Hornady's at 600 yards.

 

[Sniper66]

bwalker36. Here's a link to a rifle that would answer many of your questions and is decent quality. I've been wrestling with a similar decision for awhile now even though I have lots of shooting experience and own several rifles. I too am attracted to the Bergara line of rifles and the 6.5 Creedmore in particular. I like the Premier Series Highlander in 6.5 CM. I've shot lots of .223, .204, .243, and .270. The .308 has never appealed to me. I reload so ammo cost is not a huge concern and my reloads are wicked accurate. Anyway, take look at this option and let me know what you think. It woud be a very affordable option and in my opinion a much better rifle than the Ruger American. Here's the link.
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/sav...t-accustock-black-finish/FC-011356574923.html

 

[Sniper66]

Hey bwalker36.....Here's that same rifle cheaper and I like Reed's better. I've purchased from them before and they are good folks. Don't know what state you are in but most buyers pay no tax and shipping is always included from Reed's. Here's the link.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/865477063

 

[bwalker36]

bwalker36. Here's a link to a rifle that would answer many of your questions and is decent quality. I've been wrestling with a similar decision for awhile now even though I have lots of shooting experience and own several rifles. I too am attracted to the Bergara line of rifles and the 6.5 Creedmore in particular. I like the Premier Series Highlander in 6.5 CM. I've shot lots of .223, .204, .243, and .270. The .308 has never appealed to me. I reload so ammo cost is not a huge concern and my reloads are wicked accurate. Anyway, take look at this option and let me know what you think. It woud be a very affordable option and in my opinion a much better rifle than the Ruger American. Here's the link.
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/sav...t-accustock-black-finish/FC-011356574923.html

It is funny you linked that. That was my backup to the bergara, the american wasn't even on my radar until somone mentioned it. The appeal of .308 it to me is I can get some cheap bulk ammo and really practice shooting. All my experience is with semi autos and just plinking steel not caring about accuracy. I was sold on the american and now i'm not anymore.

But basically I think i'm down to 2 choices. The savage 110 tactical or the American Predator. Either will be paired with a Vortex Viper PST gen II 3-15 FFP.

 

[Sniper66]

I goofed...The Reed's price does not beat the Cheaper Than Dirt price...sorry. I'm strongly considering the Savage 110 Tactical for myself. I think it is far superior to the Ruger. Don't get me wrong. I've owned and shot several Ruger and Savage rifles and like them both. The Ruger American series is just too low end for me. I own a Savage 22Hornet and a friend I shoot with has several Savage rifles. All of them shoot accurately and for not much money. The Savage 110 would be a really great hunting rifle and a decent long range shooter in 6.5 CM. I certainly get that .308 ammo is cheaper for bulk shooting. I don't have that concern presently, but have in the past. Maybe you can round up friend to reload for you. I reload for a friend of mine and reload his .223 competition loads for 30 cents per round...my cost. Not sure what his 6.5s will cost, but he wants me to reload them too. I reload my in-laws .243 for 50 cents. Your first batch of loads will cost the most because you have to buy the brass, but hje reloads will be cheaper. Let me know what you buy.

 

[bwalker36]

I goofed...The Reed's price does not beat the Cheaper Than Dirt price...sorry. I'm strongly considering the Savage 110 Tactical for myself. I think it is far superior to the Ruger. Don't get me wrong. I've owned and shot several Ruger and Savage rifles and like them both. The Ruger American series is just too low end for me. I own a Savage 22Hornet and a friend I shoot with has several Savage rifles. All of them shoot accurately and for not much money. The Savage 110 would be a really great hunting rifle and a decent long range shooter in 6.5 CM. I certainly get that .308 ammo is cheaper for bulk shooting. I don't have that concern presently, but have in the past. Maybe you can round up friend to reload for you. I reload for a friend of mine and reload his .223 competition loads for 30 cents per round...my cost. Not sure what his 6.5s will cost, but he wants me to reload them too. I reload my in-laws .243 for 50 cents. Your first batch of loads will cost the most because you have to buy the brass, but hje reloads will be cheaper. Let me know what you buy.

This might be a stupid question but I googled for a while. Are the barrels on these things easy to replace and what kind of price would replacement barrels be. So far the only ones i found were Shaw and Criterion and they cost almost as much as the rifle. Are there more budget brands or do I not really care about the barrel unless I'm looking for sub 1MOA at really long distances.

Edit: I see they are pretty easy to replace but still wondering on cost.

 

[BigBL87]

Savage barrels are pretty plentiful and prices just depend on what you want. In addition to Shaw and Criterion, Mcgowen, EABCO, X-Caliber, Shilen, and Krieger also have them off the top of my head. I haven't gotten one myself, just looked around out of curiosity. EABCO are the cheapest I think, they come in around $260 or so right now. Overall your price range is probably going to run anywhere from $260-500 just depending on what options, materials, etc. you want.

 

[Trashyshoots]

Ive owned a 6.5, a 308, and a 7-08.

The 6.5 creedmoor was an amazing cartridge. I planned on reloading for it, but it shot an honest .5moa with match hornady ammo. It held better in wind, it held more power out past 750, and off the shelf match ammo was the same price. There was no reason to own a 308 bolt after I had a creedmoor.

Imo I would go 6.5, 7-08, 308, in that order.

Now if you were asking about ar10s 308 or 7-08 all the way. 6.5 creeds dont feed very well, with their steep shoulders and looooong bullets.

 

[Sniper66]

This might be a stupid question but I googled for a while. Are the barrels on these things easy to replace and what kind of price would replacement barrels be. So far the only ones i found were Shaw and Criterion and they cost almost as much as the rifle. Are there more budget brands or do I not really care about the barrel unless I'm looking for sub 1MOA at really long distances.

Edit: I see they are pretty easy to replace but still wondering on cost.

I'm thinking at this point buying a relatively inexpensive rifle is to give yourself an experience base from which to make future decisions....like, do I like the 6.5 and long distance shooting enough to buy a Bergara? So why worry about replacing the barrel? I'll wager that if you shoot the 1,000s of rounds it takes to burn out a barrel, you'll know what the next step will be. Right?

 

[BigBL87]

So, I never did comment on choice between the two, so figured I'd toss in my 2 cents as someone who was choosing between the two not THAT long ago...

I ended up going with 308 for three reasons...
-I will likely never shoot beyond 500, which is where the 6.5 really starts to shine.
-308 ammo is generally slightly cheaper and more available.
-308 is a SOLIDLY established round, the 6.5 is a bit newer though it has caught on for sure.

My rifle is a Savage 10 FCP. I ended up dropping it in a Choate Tactical Stock. It has a full bedding block and a very wide barrel channel, ideal for the fluted bull barrel that my rifle came with. Its heavy and not something I'll carry around, but as a bench gun or for stationary hunting, it's nice.

One nice thing with how easy to swap the Savage barrels are is that if I decide to move to 6.5 down the road, I can easily switch to the 6.5 with just a barrel swap. I BELIEVE (someone let me know if I'm wrong) the bolt and mags work between the two so a barrel swap is all that's needed. At that point I'd honestly probably just buy another rifle, but it's nice to have the option.

 

[LoonWulf]

So, I never did comment on choice between the two, so figured I'd toss in my 2 cents as someone who was choosing between the two not THAT long ago...

I ended up going with 308 for three reasons...
-I will likely never shoot beyond 500, which is where the 6.5 really starts to shine.
-308 ammo is generally slightly cheaper and more available.
-308 is a SOLIDLY established round, the 6.5 is a bit newer though it has caught on for sure.

My rifle is a Savage 10 FCP. I ended up dropping it in a Choate Tactical Stock. It has a full bedding block and a very wide barrel channel, ideal for the fluted bull barrel that my rifle came with. Its heavy and not something I'll carry around, but as a bench gun or for stationary hunting, it's nice.

One nice thing with how easy to swap the Savage barrels are is that if I decide to move to 6.5 down the road, I can easily switch to the 6.5 with just a barrel swap. I BELIEVE (someone let me know if I'm wrong) the bolt and mags work between the two so a barrel swap is all that's needed. At that point I'd honestly probably just buy another rifle, but it's nice to have the option.

The 6.5CM is a direct swap for the .308, so yeah you can do it with just a barrel and the tools.
Even with shoulder barreled gun swapping barrels isnt hard, as long as you stay in a cartridge family, you dont USUALLY need to change other stuff.

This might be a stupid question but I googled for a while. Are the barrels on these things easy to replace and what kind of price would replacement barrels be. So far the only ones i found were Shaw and Criterion and they cost almost as much as the rifle. Are there more budget brands or do I not really care about the barrel unless I'm looking for sub 1MOA at really long distances.

Edit: I see they are pretty easy to replace but still wondering on cost.

Shaw IS a budget barrel brand, i use them pretty often. Criterions are better, but again not really high end.

In my experience most barrels properly installed will give you moa (or very close) accuracy as far out as YOU can deliver it.

Again the more accuracy you want, the more you have to spend on average (sometimes you get lucky, Ive had a few really accurate shaw barrels)but that gives you other benefits as well. GOOD barrels usually foul less, and are easier to clean.

But basically I think i'm down to 2 choices. The savage 110 tactical or the American Predator. Either will be paired with a Vortex Viper PST gen II 3-15 FFP.

So my experience has been that once you go over about 400 bucks, your basically buying refinement. A Ruger Pred, TC compass etc will provide good accuracy, and functionality.
In the Tikka, Bergara range your starting to get nicer fit and finish, and smother actions, better stocks.
Savage rifles tend to be very accurate, and i REALLY need to handle one of their new stocks. Ive kinda quit using them simply because I find them a little sloppy for the cost, and didnt really care for the stocks.

I happen to really LIKE Ruger Americans, but Ive owned a few different rifles, and do a great deal of tinkering. If your looking for something to use for an extended period of time with little work, id suggest starting in the 650-800 dollar bracket, and a Bergara wouldnt be a bad choice and of what IVE owned it would be up there, but so would a Howa 1500 in an aftermarket stock....cause I like to tinker.

 

[horsey300]

This might be a stupid question but I googled for a while. Are the barrels on these things easy to replace and what kind of price would replacement barrels be. So far the only ones i found were Shaw and Criterion and they cost almost as much as the rifle. Are there more budget brands or do I not really care about the barrel unless I'm looking for sub 1MOA at really long distances.

Edit: I see they are pretty easy to replace but still wondering on cost.

The 6.5CM is a direct swap for the .308, so yeah you can do it with just a barrel and the tools.
Even with shoulder barreled gun swapping barrels isnt hard, as long as you stay in a cartridge family, you dont USUALLY need to change other stuff.




Shaw IS a budget barrel brand, i use them pretty often. Criterions are better, but again not really high end.

In my experience most barrels properly installed will give you moa (or very close) accuracy as far out as YOU can deliver it.

Again the more accuracy you want, the more you have to spend on average (sometimes you get lucky, Ive had a few really accurate shaw barrels)but that gives you other benefits as well. GOOD barrels usually foul less, and are easier to clean.




So my experience has been that once you go over about 400 bucks, your basically buying refinement. A Ruger Pred, TC compass etc will provide good accuracy, and functionality.
In the Tikka, Bergara range your starting to get nicer fit and finish, and smother actions, better stocks.
Savage rifles tend to be very accurate, and i REALLY need to handle one of their new stocks. Ive kinda quit using them simply because I find them a little sloppy for the cost, and didnt really care for the stocks.

I happen to really LIKE Ruger Americans, but Ive owned a few different rifles, and do a great deal of tinkering. If your looking for something to use for an extended period of time with little work, id suggest starting in the 650-800 dollar bracket, and a Bergara wouldnt be a bad choice and of what IVE owned it would be up there, but so would a Howa 1500 in an aftermarket stock....cause I like to tinker.

I know of this one guy that likes to score decent priced used savages on GunBroker and Frankenstein em into new stocks, swap barrels, etc but I hear he's kinda a bad influence so hopefully he doesn't show up and start posting links....... I'm sure bwalker could probably handle such fun little projects if we've already had much experience with ARs...

 

[dave951]

.
That said, I would recommend .308 Win for ammo cost and barrel life considerations. A .308 Win barrel should be good for 5,000-8,000 rounds before accuracy degrades whereas a 6.5 CM barrel might only have 2,000-2,500 round expected life. Now most precision shooters view rifle barrels as consumables but not all shooters feel that way. I love both cartridges but I shoot much more .308 Win than 6.5 CM.

THIS^^^^^^

Go price a new barrel and installation. Then go over what you're most likely to do. That's not to say the 6.5 isn't a great round, but be aware of the issues. Same story as with the 220Swift from back in the day.

 

[bwalker36]

I am currently leaning heavily towards .308 Win. Still air the air between the American Predator and the Savage 110. I'm kinda currently back to the predator because the money I save I can throw at ammo and reloading stuff. I could order the American today with credit card points and feel better about myself haha.

I think the key for me at this point is to get a behind a rifle and send as much as I can down range.

 

[Sniper66]

One consideration you might factor in is the impact of absorbing so much recoil from "sending as much as I can down range". Met a guy at a local swap meet who really wanted to get into long range shooting so he bought a 300 Win Mag and a case of ammo. After a few shots he decided he had made a profound mistake. The recoil was too much for him and he was selling all the ammo very cheaply. Clearly he was a tad impulsive, since there are numerous things you can do to mitigate recoil. I'm selling a 270 for the same reason...too much recoil. Good luck in your shooting future.

 

[LoonWulf]

I know of this one guy that likes to score decent priced used savages on GunBroker and Frankenstein em into new stocks, swap barrels, etc but I hear he's kinda a bad influence so hopefully he doesn't show up and start posting links....... I'm sure bwalker could probably handle such fun little projects if we've already had much experience with ARs...

Ive heard hes a bad influence also. He might have been going back over the latest one again, and considered posting links as well........

From what @bwalker36 has posted, it dosent sound like hes interested in building a project rifle atm, but as you say if he can tinker with ARs doing a barrel or stock swap should be of little concern.

One consideration you might factor in is the impact of absorbing so much recoil from "sending as much as I can down range". Met a guy at a local swap meet who really wanted to get into long range shooting so he bought a 300 Win Mag and a case of ammo. After a few shots he decided he had made a profound mistake. The recoil was too much for him and he was selling all the ammo very cheaply. Clearly he was a tad impulsive, since there are numerous things you can do to mitigate recoil. I'm selling a 270 for the same reason...too much recoil. Good luck in your shooting future.

oddly enough im picking up a .300wm RAM with about 10 round thru it. Recoil was a little much for the owner it seems.
I think that considering recoil and tolerances is a good suggestion.
I dont THINK a reasonably well fitting .308 will cause much problems but its worth paying attention to when getting into really practicing.
Sucks to spend years building a good flinch, believe me.

 

[bwalker36]

Ive heard hes a bad influence also. He might have been going back over the latest one again, and considered posting links as well........

From what @bwalker36 has posted, it dosent sound like hes interested in building a project rifle atm, but as you say if he can tinker with ARs doing a barrel or stock swap should be of little concern.



oddly enough im picking up a .300wm RAM with about 10 round thru it. Recoil was a little much for the owner it seems.
I think that considering recoil and tolerances is a good suggestion.
I dont THINK a reasonably well fitting .308 will cause much problems but its worth paying attention to when getting into really practicing.
Sucks to spend years building a good flinch, believe me.

Don't mind tinkering, just put this together.

 

[LoonWulf]

good looking .22!

If your willing/have a desire to tinker, than you can swap time for initial cost.
Both Ruger Americans, and Savage 10/110s respond very well to relatively little time and energy invested im making them nicer. The savage has an advantage if you want to go between cartridge families, since you can swap bolt heads.

 

[horsey300]

Don't mind tinkering, just put this together.

good looking .22!

If your willing/have a desire to tinker, than you can swap time for initial cost.
Both Ruger Americans, and Savage 10/110s respond very well to relatively little time and energy invested im making them nicer. The savage has an advantage if you want to go between cartridge families, since you can swap bolt heads.

Y'all just remember how this started.....
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867210432
Restock at roughly $200 for a laminate (at-one adjustable helps with form or go as pricey as you want but you're definitely not gonna wanna keep that stock)
Rebarrel to creed for $300(ballpark) when applicable, sell old barrel for 75-150.
You're welcome.
But wait there's more!
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867389427
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867434182
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/865590377 someBODY should snag that one!
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867002924
An derrs anudder
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/865374104

 

[LoonWulf]

Y'all just remember how this started.....
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867210432
Restock at roughly $200 for a laminate (at-one adjustable helps with form or go as pricey as you want but you're definitely not gonna wanna keep that stock)
Rebarrel to creed for $300(ballpark) when applicable, sell old barrel for 75-150.
You're welcome.
But wait there's more!
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867389427
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867434182
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/865590377 someBODY should snag that one!
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867002924
An derrs anudder
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/865374104

Yep bad influence!


Im not even clicking on those links.......Till i finish ordering barrels for my RAM

 

[LoonWulf]

Id probably snag that engage package if shipping to hawaii wasnt so expensive. For 350 the only thing i cant use is the tube lol.

 

[horsey300]

Id probably snag that engage package if shipping to hawaii wasnt so expensive. For 350 the only thing i cant use is the tube lol.

Ought to check the last one