My Front Sight Experience [long with pics]

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esheato

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I recently attended Front Sight, Nevada for a two day Defensive Handgun class for my first ever formal training.

First, some background information on me. I CCW daily and compete in IDPA once a month. I’ve worked up to Expert class (usually Top 5 overall for the match) shooting the 1911 platform in the traditional .45 ACP. It hasn’t been easy, but I feel I shoot decent for learning everything on my own. I’m always buried in a book reading about techniques or at the range trying new ideas. I usually shoot approximately 1-2k rounds of .45. Never mind the other pistol/rifle/shotgun ammo I burn through. It’s fair to say, I do a bit of shooting.

I was offered a free class at Front Sight and of course I jumped at the opportunity. I chose Defensive Handgun as I figured it would be the most beneficial due to my CCW.

My first observation: Front Sight is a compound. A four mile private drive leads to a small fence and gate which opens to the student parking lot. The facility is located about 15 miles East of Pahrump and approximately 38 miles West of Las Vegas, NV on 550 acres. There is no signage in Pahrump or on any billboards en route to the school. A very small sign is posted at the beginning of the private road that leads to the school. It is REALLY in the middle of nowhere.

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Yes, this thermometer on the way down there really says 113 degrees. It was hotter for the two days of the class.

DAY ONE

My shooting partner and I show up and sign in, get our weapons and ammunition inspected and retire to a large “tent†for the welcome briefing and instructor introduction.

So far everything is very professional. The instructors are clearly identifiable in uniforms, and the facility has a sense of seriousness about it. Good, this is very serious training.

Finally our class meets up at our range. We’re on the seventh range of about 12-15 on the upper portion of the facility. It’s approximately 65 yards long with large berms on three sides. Twenty-six students and 7 instructors fill out our little bit of shade in the Nevada desert. The range facilities appear immaculately maintained. Cold water was supplied as it should be. Dehydration is an ever-present threat.

The class breakout was as follows:

22 Male
4 Female

The majority of students were Caucasian in the 35-45 age range. I find this typical of the gun-owning community. There were 6-8 students under 30 years of age. By far, the majority of students were using the 1911 and Glock. A few SIGS, HKs and one Ruger were also observed. There was only one revolver, a Smith 686, and it was rented from Front Sight for the class. As far as the instructors go, 1911s were the gun of choice with Glocks coming in second. Oddly enough, the gun choices of the instructors mirrored the gun choices of the students: 1911s first and tactical plastic second. (It’s fairly obvious where I stand on this one).

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Our range. The area in the shade is where most of our instruction was accomplished.

The instructors seemed very knowledgeable and more than willing to help. The class started with basic gun handling. Grip, stance, sight picture, sight alignment, etc… This specific class was more geared towards the new shooter and CCW person than I had anticipated. I was extremely bored with the lectures and drills on the range, but I kept an open mind and crossed my fingers for some actual shooting drills. We learned about our dominant eye and how a correct grip should feel on the gun. It was very basic yet very important for a solid shooting skills foundation. We broke for lunch and had a few lectures then returned to the range for more instruction and drills. More of the same type “from low ready†drills and we briefly started practicing malfunction and reloading drills.

I must have chamber checked my weapon a billion times. To perform a live-fire drill, you present your weapon, chamber check, mag check, insert mag, rack slide, chamber check, remove mag and check it, then re-insert. Unloading the weapon was the same routine but in reverse. Lots and lots of chamber checking. I can’t really blame them, safety is paramount, but I had never done that much chamber checking in my life.

We also learned after-action drills. The theory behind these is that you don’t want to stay in the same spot you just shot from. It’s good advice and something that I will have to practice to ensure it becomes a natural response. You engage the threat, sidestep, do a quick look for other threats, re-evaluate your threat (is he really down for good?), then scan about 30* to either side of your position. Safe the weapon and holster. I had never done these before and it was difficult to get into the habit of performing them but after the first day, it was fairly automatic.

We learned the tactical reload (same as in IDPA) and the emergency reload (basic slide-lock reload). The tactical reload that they taught was very different from what I discovered on my own. This is difficult to describe without pictures, but I’m going to attempt it.

Tactical Reload: Lull in the action, you move to cover while beginning the reload. Grab spare magazine between pointer finger and thumb, tip of pointer finger on the first cartridge. Withdraw magazine from pouch while extending ring and pinkie fingers. Partially eject partial magazine into the palm of your support hand. Roll the weapon forward, pushing magazine mouth towards the back of your hand while closing ring and pinkie finger. Your hand now has the fresh full mag between pointer and thumb pointing towards mag well and partial mag between middle and ring or ring and pinkie (your preference). Insert new mag, seat it with palm of hand and stow partial mag in pocket.

The lectures from DAY ONE included:

Moral and Ethical Decisions with Use of Deadly Force—Good lecture but immediately following lunch is not a good idea…there were more than a few people falling asleep (me included).

Here is where I become brutally honest. I did not want to return the second day. I did not feel that my shooting or techniques were making any type of improvement.

First of all, I do not like the Weaver stance. It is very uncomfortable for me. I prefer the modified-Weaver….but I always revert to the Isosceles once the lead starts flying. I was constantly told to bring my support hand elbow down to facilitate the Weaver. I finally pulled the instructor aside and confided that I didn’t like shooting the Weaver and preferred the Isosceles. She responded, “Ed, all we ask is that you try it our way for the duration of the class…see if it makes a difference.†Well, I am trying to not be stubborn and I continue attempting it. Weaver cannot be the best stance for EVERYONE.

I also had issue with the comment that we should always close our off-side eyes. There is no way I will even attempt to do that. The way I figure it, in a SD situation, you want as much vision as possible. Why would you want to voluntarily close one eye when this is probably the one time you really want it? So we’re wearing sunglasses and they can’t see if both eyes are open or not…I continue with two eyes open and nobody is the wiser. Problem solved.

Ahh, the tactical reload. What can I say? I hated it. Admittedly, I am going to practice it next time I go to the range, but so far I am not enamored by this specific technique to accomplish it. We will see…..

DAY TWO

First thing is first: how to avoid a gunfight. These lectures were very informational and enlightening. The criminal and civil liabilities lecture was something that every gun owner should get. If you have a gun for self-defense, CCW or home defense, you should know what you’re getting into as far as the legal aftermath if you have to actually use your weapon. It was so informative I wish it was incorporated into basic CCW classes. It’s that important.

Color Code of Mental Awareness
Problems 2 and 3: Criminal and Civil Liabilities

After the lectures, we had range activities until we broke for lunch. We were taught how to present the weapon from a holster and did a ton of drills to get the muscle memory going.

I was a lot happier on the second day as we actually started putting more rounds downrange.

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A pic of several of the ranges at the Front Sight facility.

After lunch, we did a small skill evaluation and put together everything we had learned.

Presentation of the weapon, controlled pairs, after-action drills, malf drills, failure to stop drills etc. Now this is getting fun. ;) We did this for a few more hours while we ran individuals through a simulator. If you’ve ever shot an elaborate IDPA match that simulated a home invasion, this is nearly identical. You’re standing in a room with several windows and a door on one end of the building. There is a gentleman outside and behind the structure banging and yelling at you simulating a crazed guy trying to break into your domicile….the door opens and threats appear. You engage with controlled pairs as necessary from about 5 yards.

I thought I had performed admirably not shooting the repairman with the drill that looked like a handgun or the child hostage with a knife to his throat. Remember those after-action drills? Yup, neither did I. I went straight into competition mode and shot everything as I was supposed to then holstered and wondered when I was going to be able to shoot the next stage. Shall we talk about muscle memory?

OVERALL IMPRESSION

If I would have paid the $600 dollar fee for this class, I would have been highly disappointed.

But…any formal training is good and I’m glad I went. I may be stubborn but I’m willing to listen and try new techniques even if I’m voicing my displeasure the entire time.

It did take me a day to realize that this was DEFENSIVE PISTOL rather than competition shooting or plinking with friends. True defensive pistol is a whole different ball of wax and I think that is why I was so displeased after the first day of class.

There was some good and bad, but overall, I know I came back much more informed about using the gun on my side.

JUST FOR FUN

I was heading to work the day after returning and had to remove my Kel-Tec from my waistband before I approached the main gate at the military base I’m assigned to. I presented my weapon, chamber checked, removed the mag, chamber checked and went to put the gun away…I stopped for a second and did another quick chamber check just to be sure. I’ll be darned. I never used to do that many chamber checks…..I immediately phoned my shooting partner that I had attended the class with.

My comment to him, “You won’t believe it…I just chamber checked my gun three times just to be sure….that training sticks with you, whether you believe it or not.†He just chuckled.

We also stopped over in Las Vegas for the obligatory full auto shoot. Forty dollars and you're handed an MP5 and 50 rounds which lasts about 2 minutes. :D

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Enjoy.

Ed
 
esheato,

Good post, thanks for putting it out there.

Would you go back for one of their more advanced classes?

pax
 
Would you go back for one of their more advanced classes?

While the thought of a more advanced class is entertaining, I would be more inclined to test out a different school before returning to Front Sight.

I'm not saying the place was horrible, but that another school might possibly suit me better.

Front Sight offers a lot of classes. To get to the "fun stuff," you would have to spend a significant amount of money...nevermind the constant pressure to buy into the place.

Front Sight has been open since 1996 in the Nevada location, yet the classroom was a tent and there were no support facilities. Portable bathrooms, no food or water for sale on site....I would prefer something more established or at least give it a few years before returning.

Thanks for reading.

Ed
 
Ed,

Nice review.

I took the 4 day Practical Rifle in March. I thought it was a fantastic class, with EXTREMELY knowledgeable instructors. I think the two day classes are more geared for a real beginner, which you obviously aren't. I think you would've gotten more out of the 4 day class. The supplemental lectures I attended in Defensive Handgun and Tactical Shotgun were great.

How many people would you estimate were there training while you were there? When I was there, there were about 250 people training at Front Sight in different courses at the same time(about 10 different courses), which shocked the hell out of me. I had no idea of the amount of people they train. I recently talked to a couple Gunsite/Thunder Ranch grads, and they were suprised when I told them about the volume of students at Front Sight. When Front Sight says they train more students than all the other schools combined, they aren't kidding around. They are obviously doing something right.

I know what you mean about the training sticking with you, my Front Sight training really paid off at another long gun class I took a month later.

Dave
 
Just to ad to what Ed said about the class at Front Sight.

I have actually inquired into applying for a job as an instructor at Front Sight.

I've done a little research on the company.

To be an instructor there, you have to attend their instructor classes on your own dime, and then they determine if you "have what it takes" to be a Front Sight instructor.

Then, if you actually get a full-time job, you get paid right at $30K a year.

That's $30K with contractual obligation to work six days a week with no health insurance.

There is also a statement in their employment policies that employees have to pay all their own travel costs.

As many of their instructors start out as part-time instructors, you'd have to spend an awful lot of your own money to take their instructor class, and pay more money to get yourself to the middle of nowhere repeatedly as a part-timer, and then get paid just a little bit of money to work six days a week without any health insurance if Front Sight determined you "had what it takes" to be a full-time Front Sight instructor.

There may be a whole set of reasons why the Front Sight experience was a little disappointing.


hillbilly
 
How many people would you estimate were there training while you were there? When I was there, there were about 250 people training at Front Sight in different courses at the same time(about 10 different courses), which shocked the hell out of me.
Dave,

There were approximately 200-250 people there during my class. The tent was full of students. People from as far away as Germany.

There may be a whole set of reasons why the Front Sight experience was a little disappointing.
hillbilly,

I wish i could have taken the 4 day class, as I feel I would have been challenged during the class. The two day class is very beginner oriented. I had inquired about salaries and employment also, but the heat and the site being so remote is a real detraction.

Ed
 
I guess it should come as no surprise that I have attended a number of courses at Front Sight since I live in Pahrump. I have taken the four day handgun, four day shotgun, and four day rifle classes. I have also taken 250, 260, 223, and 556 at Gunsite so I have something to compare it to. Incidently, I took each of the classes at Gunsite before taking them at Frontsight with the exception of 556 (Advanced Carbine).
Just a couple comments: I thought that the handgun course I took at Frontsight was OUTSTANDING. I have been shooting handguns for a long time. I have competed in most of the common handgun shooting sports to some extent............................... I learned so much in that four day handgun class at Frontsight that it wasn't funny and make a huge increase in my performance particularly when drawing from concealment.
One note in contrast to esheato's post. During the final two days of my course, I must have commented 100 times a day that the people who took the two day class and left after day two missed 90% of the class. As you mention, most of the first day is taken up with very basic safety and gun handling skills with very little shooting. I learned a few things during this first day, but for those of us that have been shooting for years, you sit through a lot of lecture to glean a few pebbles of knowlege. In the two day class you are exposed to some material. In the four day class you take this material and practice it over and over and over while under supervision to engrave it into your muscle memory. In two day you also don't shoot from concealment. I belive in the two day you don't shoot at night......................................

Not that I have any intention of working at Frontsight, but I believe the instructor development course is free. Of course you have to pay your expenses to get there and stay there. The salary sounds pretty low as jobs go in the US, but name me one other place where you can work as a full time employee as a shooting instructor. That is probably why a lot of the instructors are retired military and law enforcement. It probably makes a terrific retirement job. I also believe that a lot of the instructors are part time. I know the rangemaster for my handgun class works full time as a doctor in California. I know at least one of the line coaches in my handgun class was retired military: Army SF. The rangemaster for my rifle class was a retired Marine. One of the instructors for my Shotgun class was a retired Marine.
I hope you didn't honestly think that you were going to get rich working as a firearms instructor ? I don't know much about the firearms training business, but I don't believe Gunsite has more than a handfull of people who make their sole full time living working there and they are mostly office staff and the gunsmith. Most, if not all of their insturctors are what I would call, part time employees. Many of them work in law enforcement, run shooting schools of their own or something like that.

Remote, isolated, in the middle of no-where:
You guys don't get out much do you ?
"The facility is located about 15 miles East of Pahrump and approximately 38 miles West of Las Vegas"
Pahrump is a town of over 40 thousand people and is 15 miles away. Las Vegas is a city of well over 1 million people and is 38 miles away. I would wager a guess that both these numbers are very low, I don't have much up to date information. I wouldn't be surprised if Las Vegas had closer to 1.5 million people. Pahrump is undergoing a huge boom. I called a realtor the other day and they had NO houses or lots listed anywhere in town for any price.
Next time you are around here, give me a call. I will show you some real remote areas

"but the heat and the site being so remote is a real detraction. "
:D
I live in Pahrump and drive 70 miles to work in Las Vegas fighting fires.
 
Just to mention a couple specifics on something I learned at Frontsight that to ME were definitely worth my time and money.
#1: It as pointed out to me that I had a lot of wasted motion in my presentation from the holster. I wasn't aware of it. Working on this problem saved me a lot of time.
#2: A different instructor pointed out that when I grabbed my cover garment during my draw from concealment, I was grasping it too low so that after it cleared the holster, I had to then move my hand upward to grasp the gun. By grasping the garment higher I could have my hand right next to the gun. This made a HUGE difference in my times.

Having a coach to watch you shoot is a great asset. You might do something wrong for a lifetime and never realize it. But having somebody watching isn't enough. They have to care about what they are doing, have enough knowlege to know what the right wasy to do it is, and have the ability to explain it to you. These two instructors had all that.
It is also interesting that even though there might be 40 or more people in the class, the instructors seem to still give you individual attention and seem to know what level of instruction you need. For someone like me, it was very fine details on how to perfect what I already was doing pretty good. For others, it is the most basic of shooting skills. The instrutors walk down the line and spend time with each person watching them, correcting them, praising their performance etc. I was very impressed and to be honest, I went in there with a negative attitude. I didn't think there was any way this school could compare to Gunsite. I didn't think that these part time instructors who work in totally unrelated fields could be that good. And to be honest I thought I was pretty good myself and doubted that they were better.
I was wrong on all counts.
I have mentioned time. In the final skills test (another thing you don't do in the two day class) you start off with turning targets. The targets turn, you draw your handgun from concealment and make two head shots in, I believe 1.3 seconds. At the end of that time, the targets turn way, so if you don't get your shots off there is no cheating or making it up. If your accuracy sucks, you get penelized for that also, but at least your speed was good enough. I know now that I could have never done that before the class. At the end of four days I got a Distinguished Graduate Certificate.
 
I myself live in the middle of nowhere....outside of any city or town limits, down a dirt road.

I don't make much more than $30K a year in my present job, but at least I got health insurance.

And when I traveled 1000 miles to interview for the job I've got now, they did reimburse my travel expenses.

I've never been to Front Sight.

But I think I can see some patterns here.

Front Sight pays its employees not a bunch for six-day work weeks, and doesn't do insurance or travel reimbursement for them.

They apparently don't do classroom buildings or flush toilets, either. At least not at the Pahrump facility, according to the original post of this thread.

They charge students $600 a pop for classes.

If they've got that many students a year with repeat customers since 1996, and have actually opened a second facility in Alaska, where's all that cash going?

It sure doesn't sound like it's being invested heavily into the dedicated instructors or into the facilities at Pahrump.

I am sure the instructors and employees of Front Sight are very dedicated to what they do. They'd have to be just to get on there.

But something just feels weird to me about the whole set up.

I wonder if the Ignatius Piazza is on his way to being the Sam Walton of firearms training.........By getting tons of hard work out of employees who aren't paid much and aren't given any benefits and who teach Mc-Classes from Mc-Programs and who probably get whacked from their jobs if they have the temerity to suggest that a student actually use a shooting position other than the Weaver stance..........


hillbilly
 
:) Ed, An excellent post and well-written, too! Just three quick thoughts: First you may be, even, more stubborn than I am. (And that’s, really, saying something!)

Second, I agree with you on the Weaver vs. Isosceles stance. Modified or not doesn’t matter; IME, many gunmen when threatened will instinctively revert to a frontal isosceles stance; and, for some people, this may very well be the best stance to use. I suspect that your instructors wanted you to use a full Weaver stance because, in combination with a proper grip, a shooter will have more control over that bouncing front sight. (As a matter of fact, I know this is, ‘What’ they were trying to show you.)

Finally, about that closed non-dominant eye: Well, we’re not talking about wing shooting, here – it’s all about CQB pistol combat! The fact is that very few people have perfect, ‘cooperative vision’. In order to avoid the chance of parallax, and acquire the front pistol sight as quickly as possible my suggestion, also, would be to, at least, squint with your off-eye as you seek to acquire that front sight.

I’ve had a lot of experience with this stuff so I’m not, just, talking, ‘through my hat’. You’re obviously, both, highly literate and analytical - too. My suggestion would be for you to give Front Sight’s training regimen a little more thought. I know, I know, it’s hard to change; and sometimes it isn’t really necessary; but, then again, sometimes it is. Thanks for an interesting report and good luck to you. ;)

- David
(NRA Life Member. Certified Instructor: Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun, etc., etc.)
 
Now - I always get these two confused... but is it Front Sight, or Gunsite that is the training center where some people have complained about trying to be converted to Scsomethingology?

I thought it was Front Sight... and if this is the case - then maybe that could explain the gap between revenue from students - and overhead from low salaries and minimal facilities.

I've never trained there, and don't know much about it... but I've heard alot of things good and bad.

Just my .02 :scrutiny:
 
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In two day you also don't shoot from concealment. I belive in the two day you don't shoot at night......................................
Correct on both accounts. Neither concealment nor night shooting.

Remote, isolated, in the middle of no-where:
You guys don't get out much do you ?
"The facility is located about 15 miles East of Pahrump and approximately 38 miles West of Las Vegas"
I had never been through Pahrump before, and I came in through Baker and cut across to Pahrump. It's fairly desolate driving through that portion of CA and NV. Perhaps I should have worded it differently. Honestly, I didn't see much of the town except for the hotel and up and down the main strip a few times. If I ever do make it down there again, I'd enjoy to meet up and talk guns.

"but the heat and the site being so remote is a real detraction." I live in Pahrump and drive 70 miles to work in Las Vegas fighting fires.
I was writing this as my own opinion. A commute like that would drive me crazy. Although the majority of the instructors live in LV and they make the commute. Personally, I wouldn't do it. It would definitely be a deciding factor for me.

They apparently don't do classroom buildings or flush toilets, either. At least not at the Pahrump facility, according to the original post of this thread.
All of these support facilities are either already planned or in the process of being built. In my original post, I had stated that I might return after a few years and all the construction had been completed. The vision that Front Sight will become is quite phenomenal. 550 acres that will become a LV resort for gun enthusiasts. Condominiums, 200 homes, private airstrip and schools plus a myriad of ranges and training in any discipline you want. It will be a great place when it's finished, but as of right now, I would wait until it's completed before I return.

First you may be, even, more stubborn than I am. (And that’s, really, saying something!)
:) Probably. I told myself I would keep an open mind and try to learn everything I could. I feel I did keep an open mind as I've already caught myself doing some of the drills that we practiced. Please don't get me wrong, I did learn a lot, but there were some items of the training that I questioned.

I suspect that your instructors wanted you to use a full Weaver stance because, in combination with a proper grip, a shooter will have more control over that bouncing front sight. (As a matter of fact, I know this is, ‘What’ they were trying to show you.)
This is exactly what they were trying to show me. I know because I asked during one of my "Weaver stance isn't for everyone" conversations with the instructors. I do plan on fooling around with the stance on my next range visit to see exactly what they meant. I didn't really get a chance to evaluate it on my own during the class.

Finally, about that closed non-dominant eye...
I can't do that one. I shouldn't say I can't. I refuse to attempt this until I gather more information. Closing one eye at 3 yards from the target? I'll need a much more significant explanation before I adopt this. Personally, I subscribe to the Brian Enos multiple types of focus theory. The further from your target, you more refined and crisp that front sight becomes in your vision. From contact to 3 yards, it's pure flash sight picture, 3-7 yards is slower and more refined etc...

I know, I know, it’s hard to change; and sometimes it isn’t really necessary; but, then again, sometimes it is.

The way I figure it, any formal training is good. I definitely plan on taking more, but I would like to experiment with some other schools for comparison purposes.

Thank you everyone for the comments. They're all appreciated.

Ed
 
After this decription, the course I took from James Yeager sounds even better -- everything was planned out well, and the techniques seemed better thought out.
 
:rolleyes: Ed,

It’s late; and, at my age, I should be in bed; but, since you’re so quick, I'll stay up a little longer to share a few things with you:

W.E. Fairbairn used to advocate canting the wrist slightly downward when holding a pistol. Modern trainers, usually, don’t teach this method; but, as far as I’m concerned, I can’t understand, ‘Why’? We, always, seem to be reinventing the wheel! I can tell you this: I regularly send, at least, 100 rounds a week downrange using a modified Weaver grip and stance. I alternate and do this with, both, my right and left hands.

Now, not here but, over at GT there are a couple of guys whom I regularly shoot with; and they watch me use this technique all the time. I frequently hear comments about how my G-21’s muzzle doesn’t rise during double and triple taps. These guys have accused me of everything from using underpowered ammo, and extra heavy springs, to being a lousy shot. (No comment!) It’s amusing we should be talking about this now, too, because last week a police cruiser pulled up behind the firing line; and the officer inside watched us shoot for 10 minutes, or so, before getting out to walk over and address me. He began the conversation with; ‘What are you law-enforcement, or (taking a closer look at my white hair) retired law-enforcement?’ I answered; ‘Nope; but I am an NRA instructor.’ ‘That explains it!’; he said. ‘I don’t often see anyone double tap like that.’ (Practice, practice, practice!) Turns out he was, both, the Chief of Police as well as the best shot in his class at the police academy. He proved it, too, while he was on the line with us!

Basically, I hold a pistol as if it were a pack of loose playing cards being held by the edges, rather than squeezing the grip like a lemon. I place significant pressure on, both, the front and back straps – but particularly on the front strap. I use my slightly bent support elbow to act, ‘as a shock absorber’. I DO use a, ‘Fairbairn downward cant’ of my gun-hand’s wrist in order to aid in holding down the front sight between shots. This allows me to keep the muzzle, down, to only a very slight rise between shots while using full-power ammo. (And standard weight springs.) Out to 17 yards I am consistently able to keep every shot inside the 8 ring on a reduced-size, B-27, silhouette target. Not exactly, ‘one ragged hole’ I’ll admit; but, still, very effective for repetitive fire! (If my eyes were younger, I’m sure I could do better, too.)

When I shoot, either, trap or skeet I DO keep both my eyes open; but when I’m looking for a fast front sight on a pistol I squint with my non-dominant eye. I do this because my own vision isn’t perfect; and I have experienced, ‘target distortion’ while keeping both eyes open on a stationary target. Apparently I have plenty of company on this one! You, however, with better vision may not need to do this – at all.

And, oh yeah, I don’t use this technique on targets inside 3 yards. I continue to disobey every instructor I, ever, had and, ‘instinct shoot' these – but that’s a subject for a whole new thread. ‘Good night’ or, ‘Good morning’, as the case may be, I’m out ‘a here. ;)
 
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Hmmm....ok, ok..I'm always willing to learn (even though I may grumble about it the whole time). I am going to print your post and try to re-create your grip/stance. Hopefully I can come back here in the next couple days and relay a positive conclusion.

Maybe I'm asking for a bit much here, but a picture is worth a thousand words. :D

Thanks for the tips.

Ed
 
The place reminded me of a cult. The constant pressure to "become one of us" ie.. give us lots of money is sickening.

It shouldn't be a surprize with the scientology background of the chiropractor that runs the place.
 
Front Sight: The School we love to hate.

I don't have a horse in this race, but something I always find interesting in these Front Sight threads are the personal attacks made against them that never seem to be brought up against any other firearms training facitlity. At least I have never read one.
When else has the question of employee salary and benefit packages come up when discussing gun schools ? When else does the discussion of cults/religions/polictical beliefs or related topics come up ? Have you ever read a thread about Clint Smith's personal code ? If you did, at least one person would say: Are you going there for the training or something else ? Yet, every Front Sight thread has these same points brought up. Very little about the quality of the training, very little about the quality of the instructors, a lot about side issues that have very little to do with why we are there.
One thing I will definitely second is the fact that being there is like being in a never ending TV infomercial. They want you to spend money and are not shy about asking. Which I find to be low budget.

As far as the training: If I had it to do all over again, I would pay full price to take the handgun course again. If I was going to take shotgun or rifle: I would go somewhere else. If you are paying full price for the course, it costs about the same as it would to take the same course at Gunsite and Gunsite's facility is better. When I took the Frontsight rifle class, 99% of it was on the square range shooting paper. That is Ok and it is nessessary, but Gunsite had a lot more variety in their course.
 
I really hate it when instructors nit-pic things based soley on personal prefference. Closing the off eye and requiring a specific stance are two things that i believe to be shooter's prefference. Excepting a circumstance where a shooter was having difficulty with their chosen method there really isnt anything "better" about one method over another.

The only reason that instructors teach the one-eyed shooting technique is because EVERYONE can shoot with one eye, while some people simply CANNOT shoot with two. This really shouldnt be a concern unless you are trying to turn a bunch of untrained conscripts into an army in the shortest time possible.
 
:cool: Here's another point-of-view: Go to this website and look on the left border. Under the, 'TDSA Tips' section, select, 'The Grip'.

(They used to provide good pictures, too; but lately, these pictures have been missing. This isn't exactly how I shoot; but it's pretty close, and serves to prove the point.) ;)

http://www.tdsa.net/
 
Just for the record, this is my current grip and stance. The camera angle on the second photo makes my stance appear more isosceles than it really is. The first pic is more indicative of my regular stance.

IME I always thought the parallel thumbs technique was the best, but Front Sight wanted me to overlap my thumbs. It was another point that I didn't like to much.

Anybody see any major faults with the way I'm doing it? (I'm seriously looking for some constructive feedback...)

Ed

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56523330.jpg
 
Front Sight

I believe all the negative press, IMHO, about Front Sight is mostly of their own doing. Where there is smoke, there is fire.

Piazza takes some training courses by well respected instructors (at least one) and all of a sudden he is a "combat master." The man was a chiropractor prior to that. Who the heck is he to go around teaching others in the use of firearms, tactics, etc? That was the start of the downfall for them

The next downfall is the marketing ploy. As others have stated, you go there and BANG. Give us money for gold certificates, green certificates, etc.

Again, as someone else said, a two day class is $600.00??? ***? Not only that, the first story here said there was 26 people in the class? Again, ***? How can anyone learn with that many people in a two day shooting class?

Then there is no classroom, no bathrooms, no food facilities? Doesn't sound like a very "together" training institution, no matter how good or bad the instruction maybe.

Like it or not, ladies and gentlemen, this is 2004. People in this day and age demand certain things. They don't mind being uncomfortable when they have too. But to be hot, tired, baking out in the sun all day, when it isn't necessary, is beyond stupid. Especially from a marketing stand point.

When you go to a place like Thunderranch, Gunsite, Blackwater Lodge, SigArms Academy, etc you get the shooting/range time, along with top notch instruction. However you also have the outstanding facilities on top of it. Air Conditioned classrooms, Powerpoint displays, etc. Argue all you want, your there to shoot/learn. That is great, so am I. However, I spend over 20 grand a year, in my own money, to train. And when I go somewhere, I am expecting a certain level of service.

Front Sight doesn't meet that level of service.
 
OK, on the premise that a picture is worth a thousand words, look carefully at the: Wrists, hands, and shoulders in the enclosed photos.

TDSA_Grip1.gif


Again, look at the: Wrists, hands and shoulders.

TDSA_Grip2.gif


(These guys are instructors Glen Long and Rob Best from the Texas Defensive Shooting Academy in Dallas.)

Now, look at these pictures.

Esheato1.gif


Esheato2.gif


There is a difference - isn't there. Remember that it is entirely possible for each shooter to be, either, 'a good shot' or an accurate, 'single shot shooter'; however, who do you think will be faster and more controllable on repetitive or rapid shots?

As I mentioned, my technique is not identical to that used by TDSA. I'm older and a little arthritic in my hands. I do wrap my thumbs in the same manner that, ‘Whatever Sight’ Academy recommends; and, although this may surprise you, I use my elbows, pretty much, the same way that you do. From my point-of-view and, as far as this discussion is concerned, it’s unimportant whether you do these things in exactly the same manner as shown. My recommendations would be to place your elbows and thumbs whatever way they, best, control the gun and are most comfortable for you.

The important point is that in pictures I’ve seen of myself shooting on the line, I hold: My hands, wrists, shoulders, and most of the gun in exactly the same way as the people at TDSA, Dallas. If I didn’t do this, then, the muzzle would be constantly climbing away from my line of sight.

I’m not trying to give out any, ‘hard fast rules’. The older I get the less use I have for dogmatic approaches to most things. I’m, simply, saying that I recognize, ‘good muzzle control’ when I see it; and I think you will, too. ;)
 
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"Piazza takes some training courses by well respected instructors (at least one) and all of a sudden he is a "combat master." "
I personally think the term "combat master" is ridiculous in every way. However, the term comes from Chuck Taylor who developed a course of fire that HE claims makes you a combat master. The course of fire is listed here: http://www.defenseassociates.com/faq.htm

"The next downfall is the marketing ploy."
This is a huge downfall. They sound like carnival barkers. It is really low budget in every way.

"People in this day and age demand certain things. They don't mind being uncomfortable when they have too. But to be hot, tired, baking out in the sun all day, when it isn't necessary, is beyond stupid."
I don't know about that. In the classes I have taken at Gunsite, we spent very little time in the classroom. The vast majority of the time (98% ??) is spent on the range and the elements present. I took Gunsite 250 last July and the temperature at least one day was in excess of 110 degrees. And yes, we spent the whole day on the range. Something that I find interesting is that during the hottest time of the year (July) Frontsight holds their classes at night. Not only is the termperature a lot cooler, but it also gives you the chance to train at night. Gunsite also has bathrooms that are outside and not airconditioned. Although they do have running water and are permenent structures.

"I really hate it when instructors nit-pic things based soley on personal prefference. "
The problem with this attitude is that if you don't intend to listen to what the instructors say, why take the course ? If you think you have a better way of doing things, there is no reason to waste your time and money in taking the class. The point of the class is for them to train you. Obviously they train you in the techniques they consider to be the best. There are a lot of instructors out there, you pick the ones that you agree with. You don't purposly choose a school that teaches techniques you don't agree with and then refuse to do it. I have taken handgun courses at two different schools. Both teach the Weaver stance. So, they suit my needs. If I wanted to shoot using some other stance, I would go to another school that taught the stance that I preferred.
 
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