Sven
Senior Member
Took a class from Chuck Taylor, he was setting everyone up on Weaver. I told him I had been taught iso, he said "ok, go with that".
My Front Sight Experience [long with pics]
- Thread starter esheato
- Start date
- Status
45 ACP
Member
In my experience, if you cannot PROVE to the student that what they have been "...doing for years" is wrong, then you'll NEVER convince them to change.
Sometimes, it's better to let the student continue what they have been doing. If they want to try "your" method, fine. Use it as a teaching opportunity if you are truly convinced that your alternative method is better.
If the student chooses not to try the alternative, "OK, go with that". Either they'll shoot well or they won't.
As long as:
1. They're being safe
2. They're being safe
3. They are shooting the course of fire in a satisfactory manner that shows improvement throughout the lesson plan
As c_yeager pointed out, we (instructors where I teach) are not there to teach conscripts in a hurry. If you're new to shooting, try our way. If you've been "...doing this for years" your way, see numbers 1 through 3 above.
What's the problem?
Sometimes, it's better to let the student continue what they have been doing. If they want to try "your" method, fine. Use it as a teaching opportunity if you are truly convinced that your alternative method is better.
If the student chooses not to try the alternative, "OK, go with that". Either they'll shoot well or they won't.
As long as:
1. They're being safe
2. They're being safe
3. They are shooting the course of fire in a satisfactory manner that shows improvement throughout the lesson plan
As c_yeager pointed out, we (instructors where I teach) are not there to teach conscripts in a hurry. If you're new to shooting, try our way. If you've been "...doing this for years" your way, see numbers 1 through 3 above.
What's the problem?
atek3
Member
If you want to avoid being sued, I highly recommend avoiding using the "S-word" in the same sentence as Piazza or "Front Sight"
http://www.dianahsieh.com/scientology/
Considering this is a public forum with tracked IP numbers, I can't really publicly say what I've heard about Front Sight, but needless to say, if you are an instructor, don't let back wages accrue. If you are a student, don't bump up your membership to copperplatinogoldunobtainium, until front sight inc. proves that those '1 acre' plots are really going to get developed.
If you want more info, PM me.
atek3
http://www.dianahsieh.com/scientology/
Considering this is a public forum with tracked IP numbers, I can't really publicly say what I've heard about Front Sight, but needless to say, if you are an instructor, don't let back wages accrue. If you are a student, don't bump up your membership to copperplatinogoldunobtainium, until front sight inc. proves that those '1 acre' plots are really going to get developed.
If you want more info, PM me.
atek3
The problem I have with this is simmilar to the problem I have with the threads about Wolf ammo. A lot of people make comments but only a couple have actually been there. You get a lot of "I heard" type of negative posts. Now of course this isn't anything specific to this thread, most threads have a lot of people with no personal experience chiming in with their uninformed two cents and oridinarily I just skip over those posts. But in this case I think it is a shame because I have been there and had a very postitive expereience. And, I think I know what I am taking about. I am not a "combat master" but I am a fairly experienced handgun shooter. I regularly compete and never win, but I always give the winner a run for their money. I have been to other schools and have something to compare it to. And, my opinion does not agree with those comments posted by those who haven't been there but talk about it anyway. Note if you will the few people who have been there and notice the sharp contract to those posts of people who heard something about it.
Something I have learned on internet gun forums. First hand credible information is never as attractive to other members as negative speculation and insinuation with nothing to back it up.
"If you want to avoid being sued.............."
That would sound good in court"
Well sir have you ever been to Front Sight ?
No
So do you have any personal experience with Front Sight ?
No
So on what basis to you make these comments ?
Oh, it was some stuff I heard on the internet, and on the internet you don't really have to KNOW anything about the subject: just talking is good enough for the internet.
Something I have learned on internet gun forums. First hand credible information is never as attractive to other members as negative speculation and insinuation with nothing to back it up.
"If you want to avoid being sued.............."
That would sound good in court"
Well sir have you ever been to Front Sight ?
No
So do you have any personal experience with Front Sight ?
No
So on what basis to you make these comments ?
Oh, it was some stuff I heard on the internet, and on the internet you don't really have to KNOW anything about the subject: just talking is good enough for the internet.
Average Guy
Member
My $0.02.
Attended free 1-day subgun course. Fantastic. Low-pressure sales pitch. Thought it would be great to be a part of, but couldn't justify the cost. Bought 4-day class cert for $400. Later, bought 2-day certs for $100 each through e-mail offer. Took my brother to 2-day tactical shotgun, had a blast, learned a lot. Went with buddy to 4-day defensive handgun. Had a blast, learned a lot. Bid on a "used" Copper membership and got it for $2k. Right after that, the whole Scientology issue "exploded" and I asked for--and promptly received--a full refund. I was dropped from the e-mail list, and so was my brother. I e-mailed to be reinstated to the mailing list (I wanted their free DVD) and rec'd a curt reply stating that I was no longer welcome. F.E.T.E.
Thoughts: Overall, the training is great (if dogmatic). Staff is great. Classes are way overpriced, however (unless you have a membership and can afford to attend often, or buy certs on eBay). I don't know where all the money is going, because in the couple of years since my first class, the only real improvements I saw (besides a paved road and the O-course) were a drainage culvert and a cinderblock building under construction. I saw or heard nothing overt about the "connection," so I can't speak to that. It's definitely a cult of personality, and Mr. Personality is extremely good at what he does. Very charismatic. Every time I went, I felt drawn in. I just wanted to be part of "the family" (shades of Omega Man?). I often wish I hadn't cancelled my membership, but when I compare the cost of local training vs. taking a long weekend to travel to and stay in Pahrump, I feel better about it.
My bottom line: If you can get a discounted certificate, try them once. After that, it's up to your judgment.
Attended free 1-day subgun course. Fantastic. Low-pressure sales pitch. Thought it would be great to be a part of, but couldn't justify the cost. Bought 4-day class cert for $400. Later, bought 2-day certs for $100 each through e-mail offer. Took my brother to 2-day tactical shotgun, had a blast, learned a lot. Went with buddy to 4-day defensive handgun. Had a blast, learned a lot. Bid on a "used" Copper membership and got it for $2k. Right after that, the whole Scientology issue "exploded" and I asked for--and promptly received--a full refund. I was dropped from the e-mail list, and so was my brother. I e-mailed to be reinstated to the mailing list (I wanted their free DVD) and rec'd a curt reply stating that I was no longer welcome. F.E.T.E.
Thoughts: Overall, the training is great (if dogmatic). Staff is great. Classes are way overpriced, however (unless you have a membership and can afford to attend often, or buy certs on eBay). I don't know where all the money is going, because in the couple of years since my first class, the only real improvements I saw (besides a paved road and the O-course) were a drainage culvert and a cinderblock building under construction. I saw or heard nothing overt about the "connection," so I can't speak to that. It's definitely a cult of personality, and Mr. Personality is extremely good at what he does. Very charismatic. Every time I went, I felt drawn in. I just wanted to be part of "the family" (shades of Omega Man?). I often wish I hadn't cancelled my membership, but when I compare the cost of local training vs. taking a long weekend to travel to and stay in Pahrump, I feel better about it.
My bottom line: If you can get a discounted certificate, try them once. After that, it's up to your judgment.
esheato, great report. I imagine a more advanced class would have kept you a little more entertained.
You mentioned you stopped in Vegas for some full auto fun. Where did you go? My friends and I are planning a Vegas trip early next year and I think a little full auto should be on the agenda.
You mentioned you stopped in Vegas for some full auto fun. Where did you go? My friends and I are planning a Vegas trip early next year and I think a little full auto should be on the agenda.
There are a couple reasons that I like Frontsight that really appeal to me (maybe this is why I defend them even though I don't like everything about them):
#1 Obvioiusly it is close to my home. I can stay at my own house, eat my own food and have a short drive to train there. This of course would apply to a very few people.
#2 Two Day Skill Builder Classes: As was pointed out in the original post, the basic classes have to be geared toward the first time shooter. The skill level possessed by each student is different, so they have to appeal to the lowest common denominator which is the beginner. Even if you are an experienced shooter, this isn't all bad since it is always good to brush up on the basics. In the classes I took there, there were a significant number of new shooters some of whom didn't have the slightest idea of what they were doing. In two of the three classes that I took there, there were several people who rented guns from Frontsight and didn't even own a gun prior to coming. In the shotgun class I took, there was a woman who was being harrassed by a neighbor who sounded to be off his rocker. She felt threatened and since she lived in a rural area she bought a shotgun but didn't know how to use it, so she sought training. Her questions throughout the class were things that I have known since I was a child, but she didn't. I can tell you that after she left (she took the two day class and I took the four day class) the instructors were thrilled at the progress she made and took great pride in her. But I am totally off track here: What the two day skill builder classes are, are the shooting portion of the basic handgun class. In other words, you take the basic handgun class then over time you can return and take the two day skill builder to get yourself tuned up again. There are no lectures, just all shooting. This is a great way to hone and refine your skills. And, if you are a member, you can take these classes as often as you wish. I try to take them at least once a year. This brings us to #3.
First Family Membership: This is what the sales pitch is all about. Some people seem to be put off by the sales pitch but it is actually a really good deal, or at least it was when the prices were a lot lower. The way it works is, you pay to buy a membership. This membership allows you to take classes at Frontsight as often as you like for life. Which classes you can take depend on how much you spent for your membership. I bought the second lowest cost membership which entitles me to take all the basic classes, and the two day skill builder classes as many times as I want for life. The price of a class at Frontsight is roughly the same cost as most schools. I have taken four classes at Gunsite and each one cost me roughly $1000 average (some less, some more). This is somewhere around four thousand dollars I spent there. I would love to be able to go back and re-take these classes again to keep my skills up, but if I do, it will cost me roughly $1000 (tuition alone). If they had a deal like Frontsight, I could take them over and over as many times as I wanted. This brings up some cool possibilities. For example, I took the practical rifle class with an AR15. But the next time I could take it with my M1 and the next time I could take it with a bolt gun. I took the handgun class with a 1911,but the next time I could take it with a Glock. I took the shotgun class with an 870 Express and factory rifle sights. The next time I could try out my new Vang Comp 870 with ghost ring sights. I can compare the weapons under a class environment and compare my performance and see if I like one better than another, or I can see if I performed better with one over another. I can take the class with different holsters or whatever. I wish other schools made such an offer.
Frontsight has it's faults. But I think it gets a bad rap on these forums and it isn't justified. I have never heard or seen anything related to Scientology there. I have never seen Piazza there. I went there to shoot, and shoot I did.
#1 Obvioiusly it is close to my home. I can stay at my own house, eat my own food and have a short drive to train there. This of course would apply to a very few people.
#2 Two Day Skill Builder Classes: As was pointed out in the original post, the basic classes have to be geared toward the first time shooter. The skill level possessed by each student is different, so they have to appeal to the lowest common denominator which is the beginner. Even if you are an experienced shooter, this isn't all bad since it is always good to brush up on the basics. In the classes I took there, there were a significant number of new shooters some of whom didn't have the slightest idea of what they were doing. In two of the three classes that I took there, there were several people who rented guns from Frontsight and didn't even own a gun prior to coming. In the shotgun class I took, there was a woman who was being harrassed by a neighbor who sounded to be off his rocker. She felt threatened and since she lived in a rural area she bought a shotgun but didn't know how to use it, so she sought training. Her questions throughout the class were things that I have known since I was a child, but she didn't. I can tell you that after she left (she took the two day class and I took the four day class) the instructors were thrilled at the progress she made and took great pride in her. But I am totally off track here: What the two day skill builder classes are, are the shooting portion of the basic handgun class. In other words, you take the basic handgun class then over time you can return and take the two day skill builder to get yourself tuned up again. There are no lectures, just all shooting. This is a great way to hone and refine your skills. And, if you are a member, you can take these classes as often as you wish. I try to take them at least once a year. This brings us to #3.
First Family Membership: This is what the sales pitch is all about. Some people seem to be put off by the sales pitch but it is actually a really good deal, or at least it was when the prices were a lot lower. The way it works is, you pay to buy a membership. This membership allows you to take classes at Frontsight as often as you like for life. Which classes you can take depend on how much you spent for your membership. I bought the second lowest cost membership which entitles me to take all the basic classes, and the two day skill builder classes as many times as I want for life. The price of a class at Frontsight is roughly the same cost as most schools. I have taken four classes at Gunsite and each one cost me roughly $1000 average (some less, some more). This is somewhere around four thousand dollars I spent there. I would love to be able to go back and re-take these classes again to keep my skills up, but if I do, it will cost me roughly $1000 (tuition alone). If they had a deal like Frontsight, I could take them over and over as many times as I wanted. This brings up some cool possibilities. For example, I took the practical rifle class with an AR15. But the next time I could take it with my M1 and the next time I could take it with a bolt gun. I took the handgun class with a 1911,but the next time I could take it with a Glock. I took the shotgun class with an 870 Express and factory rifle sights. The next time I could try out my new Vang Comp 870 with ghost ring sights. I can compare the weapons under a class environment and compare my performance and see if I like one better than another, or I can see if I performed better with one over another. I can take the class with different holsters or whatever. I wish other schools made such an offer.
Frontsight has it's faults. But I think it gets a bad rap on these forums and it isn't justified. I have never heard or seen anything related to Scientology there. I have never seen Piazza there. I went there to shoot, and shoot I did.
atek3
Member
Well Bucko, for your information, I have been to front sight, I have taken a course, in fact I'm planning to go back this fall for their 4-day practical rifle class. Indeed I like the quality of their instruction. Perhaps I should have made that clear in my first post. However, my opinions of front sight as an organization and Piazza as a person are different from my opinion of their instructional quality.
Front Sight has proven it will sue people who make negative comments about Front Sight on the internet percieved to be libelous. I don't have the financial resources to defend a lawsuit, so I'd rather avoid being sued. And if you don't think they'll sue you ask Diana Mertz Hsieh, Dean
Gamburd, or Glocktalk.
atek3
Front Sight has proven it will sue people who make negative comments about Front Sight on the internet percieved to be libelous. I don't have the financial resources to defend a lawsuit, so I'd rather avoid being sued. And if you don't think they'll sue you ask Diana Mertz Hsieh, Dean
Gamburd, or Glocktalk.
atek3
I have no interest in law suits, Piazza, Frontsight as an orgainization, "where the money goes", Scietology, or anything other than the training they provide. In fact, I would say that comments on matters other than their training dont' belong on the Strategies and Tactics forum and should be in the legal + political forum or possibly the roundtable forum but then, I am not a moderator.
Bucko
Bucko
atek3
Member
If you have no interest in the company you bought a first family membership from up and evaporating and taking your money with it... then you are right... this conversation is over.
atek3
atek3
Last edited:
:banghead:
Ok, it works like this: when I wrote them the check for my first family membership the money ceased to be my money and now became their money.
I have taken four classes from them. If I had paid for each class I would have spent more money than my first family membership cost. So, as far as I am concerned, I have already gotten my money's worth out of it. If they closed tomorrow, I wouldn't be all that bitter about it. On the other hand, if you believe them, they say that everything you see at the facility is bought and paid for. They own it free and clear. So, it would be very difficult for them to go under. They might never reach the goals that they have set for themselves, but it will never be any worse than it is right now: if you believe them.
I see a lot of talk about the fact that they haven't gotten any further along with construction, and also question about where the money is going ?
I once lived in a house in Ohio with a driveway about 50-75 feet long. I had it paved with asphalt. They didn't have to do any grading or dirt work, just lay down the asphalt and finish it with a rollar. I think it cost me something like $1500. At Frontsight they built a two lane paved road that stretches what ? Five miles through the desert ? The road is indistinguishable from any other county built road. Have you ever thought about what that road cost ? It had to be millions. Every time I have been to Frontsight, the heavy equipment was working. I don't think their lack of progress is from a lack of trying on their part. The project is huge and will take time: along with a LOT of money. Someone mentioned Gunsite and how nice their facilities are. I was reading about Gunsite when I was a kid living with my parents. I wonder what Gunsite looked like when it had been there for five years ?
Ok, it works like this: when I wrote them the check for my first family membership the money ceased to be my money and now became their money.
I have taken four classes from them. If I had paid for each class I would have spent more money than my first family membership cost. So, as far as I am concerned, I have already gotten my money's worth out of it. If they closed tomorrow, I wouldn't be all that bitter about it. On the other hand, if you believe them, they say that everything you see at the facility is bought and paid for. They own it free and clear. So, it would be very difficult for them to go under. They might never reach the goals that they have set for themselves, but it will never be any worse than it is right now: if you believe them.
I see a lot of talk about the fact that they haven't gotten any further along with construction, and also question about where the money is going ?
I once lived in a house in Ohio with a driveway about 50-75 feet long. I had it paved with asphalt. They didn't have to do any grading or dirt work, just lay down the asphalt and finish it with a rollar. I think it cost me something like $1500. At Frontsight they built a two lane paved road that stretches what ? Five miles through the desert ? The road is indistinguishable from any other county built road. Have you ever thought about what that road cost ? It had to be millions. Every time I have been to Frontsight, the heavy equipment was working. I don't think their lack of progress is from a lack of trying on their part. The project is huge and will take time: along with a LOT of money. Someone mentioned Gunsite and how nice their facilities are. I was reading about Gunsite when I was a kid living with my parents. I wonder what Gunsite looked like when it had been there for five years ?
Ok, I just thought I'd chime in here...
First of all, I am a FrontSight first family member and a FrontSight instructor. I am NOT responding here in any official capacity, but just giving some personal observations as a fellow high roader...
For whatever it's worth, I went through the instructor development program in Dec. 1999, and it didn't cost me anything other than I had to provide my own transportation and lodging.
In my 4+ years of teaching there, I've never heard anything about "scientology" or anything else "cultish" or "out there".
I have taken classes since 1998 when they were still based in Bakersfield, Ca, and have had lots of personal interactions with Naish Piazza (the founder), and have never had any sort of weirdness crop up in conversations or etc either.
The 2 and 4 day defensive handgun class is open to people who've never even held a gun before, hence it starts out at and hammers on the basics. 4 day classes are way better, but certainly you can either attend and if you have shooting background already, you can either feel like "oh man, this is lame" or you can accept that there are total beginners there and take the attitude "it never hurts to review the basics". The advanced classes push way beyond, but of course require that you have shot at least at "graduate" level at the basic 4 day class, because again, gotta make sure there is a certain skill parity, and this is just an easier way to do this being that we are not psychic in knowing people's skills.
I understand many have a frustration with the development progress of the school out there. Couple things to remember, this is a huge development effort, lots of stuff being done is foundation laying type of work that you don't see up by where students go. Also, this is all being done pay as you go in cash. Meaning no outside venture capitalist is financing the whole deal up front, meaning the school is able to hang onto total control. It actually has come a long way, but I know it can be hard to see that.
As far as the "frontsight teaches this, but I like this other way better..." Well, believe it or not we do have a reason for teaching things the way we do. Also, we have a motto "sometimes an instructor, always a student" that we follow to keep up on latest training methods, word fromt he field on certain things working better than others etc. In fact, since 1998, the classes have been changed and modified throughout. And as pointed out, hey, we just ask you try it our way, while you are here for the class but after the class you can do whatever you want. Also, during classes we make exceptions all the time for people. Some have certain injuries so they can't do certain stances, some police or military have certain equipment and have to modify some other thing, etc.
anyway, this is getting way too long, i'll sign off now...
-Badwolf
First of all, I am a FrontSight first family member and a FrontSight instructor. I am NOT responding here in any official capacity, but just giving some personal observations as a fellow high roader...
For whatever it's worth, I went through the instructor development program in Dec. 1999, and it didn't cost me anything other than I had to provide my own transportation and lodging.
In my 4+ years of teaching there, I've never heard anything about "scientology" or anything else "cultish" or "out there".
I have taken classes since 1998 when they were still based in Bakersfield, Ca, and have had lots of personal interactions with Naish Piazza (the founder), and have never had any sort of weirdness crop up in conversations or etc either.
The 2 and 4 day defensive handgun class is open to people who've never even held a gun before, hence it starts out at and hammers on the basics. 4 day classes are way better, but certainly you can either attend and if you have shooting background already, you can either feel like "oh man, this is lame" or you can accept that there are total beginners there and take the attitude "it never hurts to review the basics". The advanced classes push way beyond, but of course require that you have shot at least at "graduate" level at the basic 4 day class, because again, gotta make sure there is a certain skill parity, and this is just an easier way to do this being that we are not psychic in knowing people's skills.
I understand many have a frustration with the development progress of the school out there. Couple things to remember, this is a huge development effort, lots of stuff being done is foundation laying type of work that you don't see up by where students go. Also, this is all being done pay as you go in cash. Meaning no outside venture capitalist is financing the whole deal up front, meaning the school is able to hang onto total control. It actually has come a long way, but I know it can be hard to see that.
As far as the "frontsight teaches this, but I like this other way better..." Well, believe it or not we do have a reason for teaching things the way we do. Also, we have a motto "sometimes an instructor, always a student" that we follow to keep up on latest training methods, word fromt he field on certain things working better than others etc. In fact, since 1998, the classes have been changed and modified throughout. And as pointed out, hey, we just ask you try it our way, while you are here for the class but after the class you can do whatever you want. Also, during classes we make exceptions all the time for people. Some have certain injuries so they can't do certain stances, some police or military have certain equipment and have to modify some other thing, etc.
anyway, this is getting way too long, i'll sign off now...
-Badwolf
One other comment I wanted to address:
"the first story here said there was 26 people in the class? Again, ***? How can anyone learn with that many people in a two day shooting class?"
Easy. I don't know the exact numbers, but Frontsight maintains a certain student/instructor ratio. When I took my basic handgun class there must have been 6-8 instuctors and a rangemaster. I don't remember how many students were in the class but each instructor only dealt with a few students. I also noticed that they switched places every relay or so. In other words you might have instructor X watching you shoot, then the next time you are on the line you have instructor Y watching you shoot. I assume that the idea behind this is so one instructor might catch something you are doing that another instructor might have missed. The rangemaster is also walking up and down the line making comments and corrections as needed. Yet another thing done in these large classes is having more than one relay. Lets say there are 40 people in the class. When the shooting portion starts, they have 20 people on the line shooting. The other 20 people are back under the shade loading magazines and hydrating. When the first relay is done, the second relay comes forward while the first relay loads magazines and hydrates. This is actually a better method than limiting the class to a certain number of people because the instructors don't have to stop everything for the students to take a break and load mags. They keep the thing rolling continuously.
Something else I wish BadWolf would comment on:
During the classes, there are lectures. It seemed to me that while the students were in the lectures, the instructors were out on the range getting a class of their own. In other words, the instructors train and maintain their skills also. One of the things mentioned at Frontsight is that the instructors must demonstrate every technique on demand. During the class the rangemaster makes a point, then calls one of the instructors up to the front to demonstrate. It is often a live fire drill and the instructor has to perform in front of the whole class.
"the first story here said there was 26 people in the class? Again, ***? How can anyone learn with that many people in a two day shooting class?"
Easy. I don't know the exact numbers, but Frontsight maintains a certain student/instructor ratio. When I took my basic handgun class there must have been 6-8 instuctors and a rangemaster. I don't remember how many students were in the class but each instructor only dealt with a few students. I also noticed that they switched places every relay or so. In other words you might have instructor X watching you shoot, then the next time you are on the line you have instructor Y watching you shoot. I assume that the idea behind this is so one instructor might catch something you are doing that another instructor might have missed. The rangemaster is also walking up and down the line making comments and corrections as needed. Yet another thing done in these large classes is having more than one relay. Lets say there are 40 people in the class. When the shooting portion starts, they have 20 people on the line shooting. The other 20 people are back under the shade loading magazines and hydrating. When the first relay is done, the second relay comes forward while the first relay loads magazines and hydrates. This is actually a better method than limiting the class to a certain number of people because the instructors don't have to stop everything for the students to take a break and load mags. They keep the thing rolling continuously.
Something else I wish BadWolf would comment on:
During the classes, there are lectures. It seemed to me that while the students were in the lectures, the instructors were out on the range getting a class of their own. In other words, the instructors train and maintain their skills also. One of the things mentioned at Frontsight is that the instructors must demonstrate every technique on demand. During the class the rangemaster makes a point, then calls one of the instructors up to the front to demonstrate. It is often a live fire drill and the instructor has to perform in front of the whole class.
Yes, 444 is correct,
instructors have ongoing "instructor development" where we have our own classes, drills, peer reviews, tests, etc. to keep us honest
They work hard at making us better teachers and trying to strike a balance between making it relaxed and fun for students, yet safe and controlled.
And we really do read all the student critiques and so forth at the end and try to improve. by and large, students seem very enthusiastic about their experience, even celebrities like Bob Munden and his wife Becky came through and took a class for fun (super nice, super gracious people, by the way) and had nothing but praise.
To address the salary issue brought up earlier, some instructors are full time there at the school, but many if not most have other jobs and come in to teach classes. At the beginning of each class, the instructors always introduce themselves and you might be surprised at the variety of backgrounds. There are of course a lot of former or retired military and law enforcement types, but there are medical doctors, bank directors from largest 10 banks in the world, airline pilots, hollywood stunt guys, firemen, engineers, general contractors...i mean, you name it. A lot of these guys, myself included, are not doing it for the money, we do it because we enjoy it and believe in the school.
which brings me to my final point, I really don't mean all of this as a big plug for the school or anything. In fact, the one thing I will say is, going to ANY school (well, reputable school, i suppose) and getting some training, especially if you want to improve your defensive firearms use skills and knowledge is a good thing! Back in '98, I was practically dragged to my first class because I was thinking "I've been shooting for xx years, class is so expensive, i could use that money for purchasing more firearms, etc" and I was shocked at how much I didn't know and how much there was to learn.
as Bruce Lee said, ya gotta empty the tea cup!
BadWolf out!
instructors have ongoing "instructor development" where we have our own classes, drills, peer reviews, tests, etc. to keep us honest
They work hard at making us better teachers and trying to strike a balance between making it relaxed and fun for students, yet safe and controlled.
And we really do read all the student critiques and so forth at the end and try to improve. by and large, students seem very enthusiastic about their experience, even celebrities like Bob Munden and his wife Becky came through and took a class for fun (super nice, super gracious people, by the way) and had nothing but praise.
To address the salary issue brought up earlier, some instructors are full time there at the school, but many if not most have other jobs and come in to teach classes. At the beginning of each class, the instructors always introduce themselves and you might be surprised at the variety of backgrounds. There are of course a lot of former or retired military and law enforcement types, but there are medical doctors, bank directors from largest 10 banks in the world, airline pilots, hollywood stunt guys, firemen, engineers, general contractors...i mean, you name it. A lot of these guys, myself included, are not doing it for the money, we do it because we enjoy it and believe in the school.
which brings me to my final point, I really don't mean all of this as a big plug for the school or anything. In fact, the one thing I will say is, going to ANY school (well, reputable school, i suppose) and getting some training, especially if you want to improve your defensive firearms use skills and knowledge is a good thing! Back in '98, I was practically dragged to my first class because I was thinking "I've been shooting for xx years, class is so expensive, i could use that money for purchasing more firearms, etc" and I was shocked at how much I didn't know and how much there was to learn.
as Bruce Lee said, ya gotta empty the tea cup!
BadWolf out!
stevelyn
Member
UnknownSailor
Member
Regarding instructor/student ratio: My Gunsite 250 class last August had ~25 people in it, with 1 rangemaster and 3 instructors. Class was split into 2 relays. I do not feel that instruction quality was lessened in any way by this. We had some obvious new shooters in my class, and their skills were noticibly better when we all graduated. Even our 1 lone revolver shooter, bless his heart. He got really good with his speedloaders.
He got really good with his speedloaders.I just happened to be poking around a bit, trying to learn more about Front Sight over the last few days. I haven't been there and wanted to get some more information on the place.
I came across this sight, IgnatiusPiazza.com
It is the web page for the Piazza and Front Sight philanthropies.
They claim to have so far donated over $5 million in philanthropic monies and "benefits". I put that in quotes because I don't know how much of that $5 million is in Front Sight course certificates. Not to say free tuition isn't generous. I know they give those out through GOA and JPFO with the purchase of a life membership. I like to see that kind of support of the pro RKBA lobby encouraging membership. Other non-gun related organizations could use the certificates for charity auctions or as a benefit for fulfilling pledged support.
I havn't picked through the list of charities but there are quite a few varied religious as well as secular organizations listed as beneficiaries of the fund. There is not much information posted otherwise. Not that it really matters to me but glancing through the list, none of the charities jump out at me as Scientology related.
Beyond a few accusations, I really don't see evidence of anything nefarious going on at Front Sight. By all accounts, it sounds like an excellent organization and program although it does sound slightly like a "personality cult". I am not sure of the full implication of that phrase but it sounds like there is some ego stoking going on there. I'm not into the controversy and politics. I am a relative novice and just want some first rate instruction.
I came across this sight, IgnatiusPiazza.com
It is the web page for the Piazza and Front Sight philanthropies.
They claim to have so far donated over $5 million in philanthropic monies and "benefits". I put that in quotes because I don't know how much of that $5 million is in Front Sight course certificates. Not to say free tuition isn't generous. I know they give those out through GOA and JPFO with the purchase of a life membership. I like to see that kind of support of the pro RKBA lobby encouraging membership. Other non-gun related organizations could use the certificates for charity auctions or as a benefit for fulfilling pledged support.
I havn't picked through the list of charities but there are quite a few varied religious as well as secular organizations listed as beneficiaries of the fund. There is not much information posted otherwise. Not that it really matters to me but glancing through the list, none of the charities jump out at me as Scientology related.
Beyond a few accusations, I really don't see evidence of anything nefarious going on at Front Sight. By all accounts, it sounds like an excellent organization and program although it does sound slightly like a "personality cult". I am not sure of the full implication of that phrase but it sounds like there is some ego stoking going on there. I'm not into the controversy and politics. I am a relative novice and just want some first rate instruction.
Ktulu,
We stopped at The Gun Store. It is 3 1/2 miles down Tropicana past the MGM Grand casino. Not the most impressive of places, but they have quite a selection of full auto guns and the staff were very nice.
If you follow the link above, they have a $5 discount coupon for the auto weapons rentals ($35 instead of $40).
Enjoy,
Ed
Last night, received a DVD from Front Sight that I had requested on Friday. The one thing they talked about quite a bit was a 1 day totally free full auto Uzi course they offer to the public. I don't see that class on their web page but apparently, you can stream that video from here. They said they offer it every day of the year. For a free class, i imagine there is no way around a sales pitch. But it sounds like they are confident enough to let the course speak for itself. I"m on the east coast so the expense of flying to LV for a 1 day course is prohibitive. But if your going to be in town, why not?
Fly320s
Member
Stebalo,
Last I heard, Frontsight has discontinued the free Uzi SMG course.
Now for my two cents:
I took the 4 day defensive handgun course there in November, 2001. I admit that I was drawn in by Frontsight's offer to train airline pilots for free after 9-11, based on meeting certain criteria. That didn't apply to me, and as far as I know, no airline pilot has trained for free there. Anyway, I went.
The facilities:
Were spartan. FS was a fairly new range and new idea of a shooting community. The "tent" was there when I was. "Tent" is a bit of an understatement. It was closer to a semi-rigid building with a solid floor and HVAC.
The ranges were nice, with lots of room to move and shoot. They also had a solid cover awning for shade and rain protection. The actual berms were very impressive. They were the standard truncated pyramid shape, but they were covered with a rubbery coating to prevent erosion. It felt much like the rubber of a high school track surface.
The restrooms were port-o-johns, but did have water to wash with.
No food service was available, as we had been advised, but FS always provided water and/or Gatorade to drink. Often, pizza and sodas were available, free of charge.
The sales pitch:
Was present. Frontsight is a business after all. Personally, I like the idea they offer, just not the location. If FS opens a branch out here on the East Coast, I'd buy in. Ignatius is definetly a good presenter and salesman; he has the gift of gab.
The lectures were informative, but attendance was not required. FS suggested that first-time students attend the lectures, but we were free not to attend. Those who skipped the lectures, (I stayed) went to the ranges for more practice.
The instruction:
Very good. That was my first and only formal instruction experience, Army Basic not included. Because of our class size we also had two relays of shooters. It worked out well. I can learn as much by watching others shoot as I can by shooting. Plus, it gave me a chance to get water, use the bathroom, load ammo, etc.
I liked the fact that we had small tests during the training such as timed tactical reloads, timed first shots from the holster, timed malfunction drills. We also did some night shooting, live fire house clearing, and one-on-one competitions, all of which made the course more interesting.
About the money:
Yes, $1200 is a bit much for a 4 day course. But if one looks around on the internet, one can find course certificates for sale. These certificates were given to people who bought one of the memberships at FS. A person could receive 20 or more certificates to do with as one pleases. Therefore, the cost of a course for a student will be only what that person bargains for with the seller of the certificate.
Which is why Frontsight doesn't get all the money from every student. In fact, a course may run without any money going to FS. Add to that the fact that the memberships fees are not paid in a lump-sum form, and you can see that FS will take awhile to be finished.
Yep, it's in a desert. Land is cheap and plentiful out there. Lots of room to shoot without worry about neighbors or noise. It's not for me, either, but the training is good.
Never once did I hear anything about religion or Scientology. If the talk wasn't about shooting and related areas, it was about the FS planned community.
Negatives:
1. Location. Vegas is easy to get to, but the desert is a killer for me.
2. Ignatius Piazza's belief that movie stars, and other famous types, are "opinion leaders" who shape people's view of the world. Seems to me that a movie star can do no wrong in FS's view.
That's it.
Last I heard, Frontsight has discontinued the free Uzi SMG course.
Now for my two cents:
I took the 4 day defensive handgun course there in November, 2001. I admit that I was drawn in by Frontsight's offer to train airline pilots for free after 9-11, based on meeting certain criteria. That didn't apply to me, and as far as I know, no airline pilot has trained for free there. Anyway, I went.
The facilities:
Were spartan. FS was a fairly new range and new idea of a shooting community. The "tent" was there when I was. "Tent" is a bit of an understatement. It was closer to a semi-rigid building with a solid floor and HVAC.
The ranges were nice, with lots of room to move and shoot. They also had a solid cover awning for shade and rain protection. The actual berms were very impressive. They were the standard truncated pyramid shape, but they were covered with a rubbery coating to prevent erosion. It felt much like the rubber of a high school track surface.
The restrooms were port-o-johns, but did have water to wash with.
No food service was available, as we had been advised, but FS always provided water and/or Gatorade to drink. Often, pizza and sodas were available, free of charge.
The sales pitch:
Was present. Frontsight is a business after all. Personally, I like the idea they offer, just not the location. If FS opens a branch out here on the East Coast, I'd buy in. Ignatius is definetly a good presenter and salesman; he has the gift of gab.
The lectures were informative, but attendance was not required. FS suggested that first-time students attend the lectures, but we were free not to attend. Those who skipped the lectures, (I stayed) went to the ranges for more practice.
The instruction:
Very good. That was my first and only formal instruction experience, Army Basic not included. Because of our class size we also had two relays of shooters. It worked out well. I can learn as much by watching others shoot as I can by shooting. Plus, it gave me a chance to get water, use the bathroom, load ammo, etc.
I liked the fact that we had small tests during the training such as timed tactical reloads, timed first shots from the holster, timed malfunction drills. We also did some night shooting, live fire house clearing, and one-on-one competitions, all of which made the course more interesting.
About the money:
Yes, $1200 is a bit much for a 4 day course. But if one looks around on the internet, one can find course certificates for sale. These certificates were given to people who bought one of the memberships at FS. A person could receive 20 or more certificates to do with as one pleases. Therefore, the cost of a course for a student will be only what that person bargains for with the seller of the certificate.
Which is why Frontsight doesn't get all the money from every student. In fact, a course may run without any money going to FS. Add to that the fact that the memberships fees are not paid in a lump-sum form, and you can see that FS will take awhile to be finished.
Yep, it's in a desert. Land is cheap and plentiful out there. Lots of room to shoot without worry about neighbors or noise. It's not for me, either, but the training is good.
Never once did I hear anything about religion or Scientology. If the talk wasn't about shooting and related areas, it was about the FS planned community.
Negatives:
1. Location. Vegas is easy to get to, but the desert is a killer for me.
2. Ignatius Piazza's belief that movie stars, and other famous types, are "opinion leaders" who shape people's view of the world. Seems to me that a movie star can do no wrong in FS's view.
That's it.
Grump
Member
Been there for the Subgun course and have followed the situation since probably 1997.
My observations: The "deal in abundance" or whatever philosophy which was the theme of the sales pitches sounded appealing and hinted of a strong religious bent. I did not mind that. The repetition was a bit much.
The strong endorsement of Blade-Tech products, with their Christian fish symbol always present, led me to believe that I. Piazza was some sorta evangelical Christian-type. He, and the place itself to a lesser extent, had a hint of that "revival" atmosphere anyway. Again, I didn't mind. It just left me a bit on guard, having a heritage of my ancestors being run off for being the "wrong" religion.
Even allowing for the roadbuilding, the climbing stuff being built, and the lawsuit against the grading & paving company, I would EXPECT at least one permanent classroom by now. I was there at the very beginning when it was a few Connex boxes and only one enclosed A/C tent. Running water fountains, refrigerated and from a reverse osmosis system, and at least two or three permanent bathrooms with A/C should be there by now. Hard to say where's the money going, but it counts at this stage as a mere irritation because it's their money and the instruction seems sound in most ways.
Dogmatic instruction: perhaps. No place is perfect, though I tend to favor the approach of "try A, try B and use the one that's most comfortable--as long as your performance is at least equal if not better." And the instructors should check performance, with all risk that a stubborn student will sandbag! There *should* be at least two acceptable variations for most (all?) shooting tasks, borne out by reasonably scientific comparisons. For pistol, Iso seems proven superior for most shooters at the fast-follow-up-shot gun games....but Weaver seems to also work closely enough that personal preference can override the "majority" rule.
Scientology: Generally, I don't care if that's the undercurrent I detected. I've heard no firm evidence that I.P. is even hooked up with L. Ron Hubbard's group (okay, I didn't follow that one link.). There appear to be no reports of the school being used as a proselyting vehicle, so I see no harm here. I also see no real room for anyone else's prejudices against what I consider to be a false pseudo-scientific religion. As long as they don't kidnap anyone, steal my socks or defraud anyone of money, I really don't care how weird someone is. And from my own faith, _IF_ it's "true" or otherwise of value, wouldn't they be crumbs if they didn't try to "share" it with you? As long as they take "no" for an answer, I'm not even offended if they DO proselyte me.
Would I go again? Yes, most certainly. My only real reasons I have not, are money and time from the family. My own admittedly biased self-assessment is that my level of usually conscious competence is enough for my current risk level. Two weeks ago I started re-incorporating Front Sight's after-action scans into my dryfire drills.
That's an endorsement.
These rumblings about FS just may explain why the American Handgunner under Cameron Hopkins a few years ago completely omitted FS from an article about the nation's major shooting schools. I always wondered who I.P. pissed off and why. Perhaps I know now, and I don't consider the complaints valid reason to ignore FS. After all Kahr's seem to sell okay despite some complaints that the owner is closely related to Sun Myun Moon. Big deal. Look at the value of the product. I don't consider myself as financing and assisting al Queda when I buy gasoline, either.
If Front Sight makes you nervous, you need to be more comfortable in your own skin and your own beliefs. I believe that even a Chiropractor can become proficient enough with weapons to have something of value to offer. Chuck Taylor apparently thought I.P. had gained some skills, eh?
My observations: The "deal in abundance" or whatever philosophy which was the theme of the sales pitches sounded appealing and hinted of a strong religious bent. I did not mind that. The repetition was a bit much.
The strong endorsement of Blade-Tech products, with their Christian fish symbol always present, led me to believe that I. Piazza was some sorta evangelical Christian-type. He, and the place itself to a lesser extent, had a hint of that "revival" atmosphere anyway. Again, I didn't mind. It just left me a bit on guard, having a heritage of my ancestors being run off for being the "wrong" religion.
Even allowing for the roadbuilding, the climbing stuff being built, and the lawsuit against the grading & paving company, I would EXPECT at least one permanent classroom by now. I was there at the very beginning when it was a few Connex boxes and only one enclosed A/C tent. Running water fountains, refrigerated and from a reverse osmosis system, and at least two or three permanent bathrooms with A/C should be there by now. Hard to say where's the money going, but it counts at this stage as a mere irritation because it's their money and the instruction seems sound in most ways.
Dogmatic instruction: perhaps. No place is perfect, though I tend to favor the approach of "try A, try B and use the one that's most comfortable--as long as your performance is at least equal if not better." And the instructors should check performance, with all risk that a stubborn student will sandbag! There *should* be at least two acceptable variations for most (all?) shooting tasks, borne out by reasonably scientific comparisons. For pistol, Iso seems proven superior for most shooters at the fast-follow-up-shot gun games....but Weaver seems to also work closely enough that personal preference can override the "majority" rule.
Scientology: Generally, I don't care if that's the undercurrent I detected. I've heard no firm evidence that I.P. is even hooked up with L. Ron Hubbard's group (okay, I didn't follow that one link.). There appear to be no reports of the school being used as a proselyting vehicle, so I see no harm here. I also see no real room for anyone else's prejudices against what I consider to be a false pseudo-scientific religion. As long as they don't kidnap anyone, steal my socks or defraud anyone of money, I really don't care how weird someone is. And from my own faith, _IF_ it's "true" or otherwise of value, wouldn't they be crumbs if they didn't try to "share" it with you? As long as they take "no" for an answer, I'm not even offended if they DO proselyte me.
Would I go again? Yes, most certainly. My only real reasons I have not, are money and time from the family. My own admittedly biased self-assessment is that my level of usually conscious competence is enough for my current risk level. Two weeks ago I started re-incorporating Front Sight's after-action scans into my dryfire drills.
That's an endorsement.
These rumblings about FS just may explain why the American Handgunner under Cameron Hopkins a few years ago completely omitted FS from an article about the nation's major shooting schools. I always wondered who I.P. pissed off and why. Perhaps I know now, and I don't consider the complaints valid reason to ignore FS. After all Kahr's seem to sell okay despite some complaints that the owner is closely related to Sun Myun Moon. Big deal. Look at the value of the product. I don't consider myself as financing and assisting al Queda when I buy gasoline, either.
If Front Sight makes you nervous, you need to be more comfortable in your own skin and your own beliefs. I believe that even a Chiropractor can become proficient enough with weapons to have something of value to offer. Chuck Taylor apparently thought I.P. had gained some skills, eh?
Dave Williams
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 377
FYI
In March when I was at Front Sight, there was a very nice, large classroom facility that had just been completed. I'm sure it will be open for use soon.
I cannot wait to get back out there and train. My next class will be 4 Day Tactical Shotgun.
Dave Williams
In March when I was at Front Sight, there was a very nice, large classroom facility that had just been completed. I'm sure it will be open for use soon.
I cannot wait to get back out there and train. My next class will be 4 Day Tactical Shotgun.
Dave Williams
dpsychs
Member
my experience
I just got back from the 4-day handgun course at Front Sight, so I figured I'd add my 2 cents...
Like Ed, I found making changes to my stance, grip, etc., a little frustrating, but I'm not as invested in my current techniques, I think, (nor do I shoot as well as Ed), and after awhile, I found that the changes did in fact, improve both my accuracy and recoil control. I have to admit that I didn't close one eye all the time, tho. I have worked pretty hard to develop a 2-eyed sight picture and to keep from blinking at the bang, and I find that squinting one eye makes it much more difficult for me to keep from blinking, which prevents me from calling my shots. I took this to be a technique that they espoused to ensure that new folks would be able to see their sights, and disregarded it, except to squint just a bit as I first acquired my sights.
Regarding the one-size-fits-all approach, I see both ups and downs to it. On the one hand, it is really good to be getting a consistent message. With 5 or more instructors on the line, I would HATE for each of them to be teaching me their favorite technique - that simply wouldn't work at all! On the other hand, after having a couple of folks comment on my presentation from the holster, I explained that I had to lean forward a bit, as I have limited mobility in my right shoulder. That was the last I heard of it.
There was a definite sales-pitch going on, but to their credit, this did not happen on the range AT ALL, or in any of their "required" lectures. ALL of the sales-pitchy material was limited to lunch hour activities (which, of course, were optional - you were not required to eat lunch in the air-conditioned tent, or the big one was at an optional lecture at the end of the first day, which they bribed new folks to attend with pizza and a free gift. To me, it seemed more like a time-share sort of pitch than anything with religious overtones. At the same time, a portion of the sales pitch was delivered by IP himself, and I, at least, am convinced that he is entirely sincere in his intent to change the way firearms and firearm ownership is percieved in this country - this was the only part of the pitch that had anything like "religous" fervor, but the only religion implicated was the religion of the 2nd amendment. Fortunately, I can subscribe to that one.
Regarding the Scientology connection, I had read a great deal about that on the internet prior to attending, and expected to see some trace of it while I was there. I did not. Trust me, I am pretty sensitive to anything that smacks of organized religion (sorry - as an ex-Catholic, I find religion somewhat painful), and there simply wasn't any. For that I am grateful, because, unlike one of the other posters, if I was to attend a firearms training course in which the instructors or owners were proselytizing for their favorite religion, I would NOT find that acceptable - even if they took "no" for an answer.
I would say, for anyone who hasn't been to Front Sight, and *especially* if you are taking someone new to shooting, it is a very worthwhile experience. The instructors are polite and respectiful, the message is consistent, and in spite of the fact that the facilities are far from complete, they make a real effort to ensure your comfort and convenience. For instance, I noticed that they even sprang for 2-ply toilet paper! (For those of you who don't notice such things, let me assure you that this is a rarity in most commercial facilities, nevermind in a porto-john!)
On that note, I will sign off...
I just got back from the 4-day handgun course at Front Sight, so I figured I'd add my 2 cents...
Like Ed, I found making changes to my stance, grip, etc., a little frustrating, but I'm not as invested in my current techniques, I think, (nor do I shoot as well as Ed), and after awhile, I found that the changes did in fact, improve both my accuracy and recoil control. I have to admit that I didn't close one eye all the time, tho. I have worked pretty hard to develop a 2-eyed sight picture and to keep from blinking at the bang, and I find that squinting one eye makes it much more difficult for me to keep from blinking, which prevents me from calling my shots. I took this to be a technique that they espoused to ensure that new folks would be able to see their sights, and disregarded it, except to squint just a bit as I first acquired my sights.
Regarding the one-size-fits-all approach, I see both ups and downs to it. On the one hand, it is really good to be getting a consistent message. With 5 or more instructors on the line, I would HATE for each of them to be teaching me their favorite technique - that simply wouldn't work at all! On the other hand, after having a couple of folks comment on my presentation from the holster, I explained that I had to lean forward a bit, as I have limited mobility in my right shoulder. That was the last I heard of it.
There was a definite sales-pitch going on, but to their credit, this did not happen on the range AT ALL, or in any of their "required" lectures. ALL of the sales-pitchy material was limited to lunch hour activities (which, of course, were optional - you were not required to eat lunch in the air-conditioned tent
, or the big one was at an optional lecture at the end of the first day, which they bribed new folks to attend with pizza and a free gift. To me, it seemed more like a time-share sort of pitch than anything with religious overtones. At the same time, a portion of the sales pitch was delivered by IP himself, and I, at least, am convinced that he is entirely sincere in his intent to change the way firearms and firearm ownership is percieved in this country - this was the only part of the pitch that had anything like "religous" fervor, but the only religion implicated was the religion of the 2nd amendment. Fortunately, I can subscribe to that one.Regarding the Scientology connection, I had read a great deal about that on the internet prior to attending, and expected to see some trace of it while I was there. I did not. Trust me, I am pretty sensitive to anything that smacks of organized religion (sorry - as an ex-Catholic, I find religion somewhat painful), and there simply wasn't any. For that I am grateful, because, unlike one of the other posters, if I was to attend a firearms training course in which the instructors or owners were proselytizing for their favorite religion, I would NOT find that acceptable - even if they took "no" for an answer.
I would say, for anyone who hasn't been to Front Sight, and *especially* if you are taking someone new to shooting, it is a very worthwhile experience. The instructors are polite and respectiful, the message is consistent, and in spite of the fact that the facilities are far from complete, they make a real effort to ensure your comfort and convenience. For instance, I noticed that they even sprang for 2-ply toilet paper! (For those of you who don't notice such things, let me assure you that this is a rarity in most commercial facilities, nevermind in a porto-john!)
On that note, I will sign off...
vfrdirk
Member
I've been to Front Sight a couple of times, but never any of the other schools....yet. Based on what I've heard, my feeling is that Front Sight is a great place to go if you've never had any other firearms training before. (Make that SERIOUS firearms training. I don't think Army basic counts....) That brings up a good point.
Front Sight is not unlike Basic Training for firearms, albeit in a much more supportive and nurturing environment. If you go in with nothing, you'll come out with very solid skills as long as you apply yourself and practice what they give you. My information comes second hand, but several posters on various boards have broadened their horizons after FS and gone to other schools where students and instructors were impressed (or amazed) at the speed at which students could draw from concealment and put two into the center of mass. Highly skilled shooters whose previous training differs from normal FS doctrine are generally somewhat uncomfortable since they have to "unlearn" their habits (good or bad) in order to perform the dance according to the Front Sight book. To me, that's neither good nor bad since serious students will try anything for a little while looking for the next best thing.
I think some students go to training centers not for the training as much as for validation that what they already know is right and good. I think the next level up from that is to go in with what you know, practice what's taught and then go home and throw out what doesn't work for you and integrate what does work into your regular training. The fact that the FS instructor made you change your grip or stance isn't a condemntation of your technique (unless it's unsafe, natch) it's just a reminder that "that's not what we're trying to teach today".
It's like that old joke:
Inventor: I want to patent a machine I just invented which automatically cuts anyone's hair perfectly.
Patent Clerk: But, not everyone's head is the same size.
Inventor: Nope, at least not beforehand!
Dirk
Front Sight is not unlike Basic Training for firearms, albeit in a much more supportive and nurturing environment. If you go in with nothing, you'll come out with very solid skills as long as you apply yourself and practice what they give you. My information comes second hand, but several posters on various boards have broadened their horizons after FS and gone to other schools where students and instructors were impressed (or amazed) at the speed at which students could draw from concealment and put two into the center of mass. Highly skilled shooters whose previous training differs from normal FS doctrine are generally somewhat uncomfortable since they have to "unlearn" their habits (good or bad) in order to perform the dance according to the Front Sight book. To me, that's neither good nor bad since serious students will try anything for a little while looking for the next best thing.
I think some students go to training centers not for the training as much as for validation that what they already know is right and good. I think the next level up from that is to go in with what you know, practice what's taught and then go home and throw out what doesn't work for you and integrate what does work into your regular training. The fact that the FS instructor made you change your grip or stance isn't a condemntation of your technique (unless it's unsafe, natch) it's just a reminder that "that's not what we're trying to teach today".
It's like that old joke:
Inventor: I want to patent a machine I just invented which automatically cuts anyone's hair perfectly.
Patent Clerk: But, not everyone's head is the same size.
Inventor: Nope, at least not beforehand!
Dirk
Average Guy
Member
OK, I just received the Front Sight is the Answer DVD in the mail today. Production quality is great, and one of the dramatizations stars actor Gary Graham, a First Family member (brush with fame: he was there the weekend I took my 4DDH). Anyway, there appears to be a lot more actual buildings now, including the martial arts training center (sorta looks like an outdoor covered courtyard). Looks almost like a little Mexican western adobe town (complete with people walking up and down the street like they do in westerns). Kinda cool to watch and pick out my past instructors. And the exclusivity and charm are in full effect, so of course while I watched it I kicked myself for rescinding my membership. Ah, well. I'll keep telling myself the transportation and housing costs would have been prohibitive.
Y'think maybe if I apologized, Naish would let me come back?
Y'think maybe if I apologized, Naish would let me come back?
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