NIGHTWATCH
Member
Guys, what does this have to do with the focus of this thread? Narrow it down to gun ownership and ethnic non-white association to it in America.
My Greatest Fear as an American
- Thread starter NIGHTWATCH
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OK back to the topic...
Here's the thing, everywhere in the world Hispanics or Blacks are in sole charge you have enormous corruption, authoritarianism, no gun freedom and, periodically, genocide.
When thay come, or are based here my concern is always that they have brought or maintained their corrupt and evil ways (note the evil of the English-based Muslims has been maintained and increased)
The problem Nightwatch (and I) are seeing is perhaps being approached from the wrong angle.
White folks are, in the USA, inherently more freedom loving, less corrupt and less authoritarian (until they get elected to office anyway) than their brothers of color.
This is changing. Many blacks and Hispanics have become very conservative and patriotic (more so than many white coastal elitists).
But it is not the white man's responsibility it is the man of color's responsibility to step up and be counted.
G
Here's the thing, everywhere in the world Hispanics or Blacks are in sole charge you have enormous corruption, authoritarianism, no gun freedom and, periodically, genocide.
When thay come, or are based here my concern is always that they have brought or maintained their corrupt and evil ways (note the evil of the English-based Muslims has been maintained and increased)
The problem Nightwatch (and I) are seeing is perhaps being approached from the wrong angle.
White folks are, in the USA, inherently more freedom loving, less corrupt and less authoritarian (until they get elected to office anyway) than their brothers of color.
This is changing. Many blacks and Hispanics have become very conservative and patriotic (more so than many white coastal elitists).
But it is not the white man's responsibility it is the man of color's responsibility to step up and be counted.
G
Marshall
Member
OK. I still don't see the need for what you want. The way what you want gets started is through free enterprise. You want something, start it. Now, let's take it away from being personal to you.
If the minority's don't think they are represented well enough, then they need to work toward being so. But begging for a non-white leader for what reasons have been described isn't going to cut it. Don't take offense but what I have read that you have written makes me seriously doubt that what you are after is what you say. You have written the following:
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The need for a latin-American gun rights organization is crucial
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We need a national image.
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True, but Im thinking national headlines.
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the NRA flashes across its magazines people of color and women, but what about a black or latin Heston?
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Or is it that the structure of our movement deliberatly resist a colored face in power?
It appears to me your looking for power for non-whites in an area that you don't believe there is any and making the justification that without non-white leaders, we are in trouble and have no future existence. At least that is what you have said.
That tends to rub me wrong and I imagine it would quite a few other as well. I'm telling you this because, if you are sincerely suggesting that non-whites will only listen to non-whites, I suggest you find a different method for arguing for your proposition. But then again, maybe it's just me.
Peace
NIGHTWATCH
Member
Maybe its just me too.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Marshall, lemme take a shot at what I think NIGHTWATCH is trying to say.
The main war over guns is generally a white-guy thing, with the anti-gun crowd also helped by the present makeup of Congress' Black Caucus and the NAACP. leadership.
Many from south of the US have grown up in non-gun-freedom cultures. And, no Bill of Rights. They're accustomed to an authoritarian format of government. In the US, most of their political activism concerns economic issues much more than Constitutional issues.
If we don't find people in the black and Latin communities who are recognized as a) leaders or role models and b) outspokenly pro-gun, gun-owners can wind up short in the numbers game of votes.
Art
The main war over guns is generally a white-guy thing, with the anti-gun crowd also helped by the present makeup of Congress' Black Caucus and the NAACP. leadership.
Many from south of the US have grown up in non-gun-freedom cultures. And, no Bill of Rights. They're accustomed to an authoritarian format of government. In the US, most of their political activism concerns economic issues much more than Constitutional issues.
If we don't find people in the black and Latin communities who are recognized as a) leaders or role models and b) outspokenly pro-gun, gun-owners can wind up short in the numbers game of votes.
Art
joab
Member
OK here's here's my take.
Name an outwardly pro-gun person of color as universally known and respected as either Heston or Selleck.
Maybe you could talk to Carlos Estevez, but that ain't gonna happen
But Beerslurpy is right as far, as I have know, I have never met a rabidly anti gun Hispanic in Fla.
And I was married to a PR girl for 10 years and 75% of the people I know now Hispanic now.
Now Asians, that's a whole nother story
Name an outwardly pro-gun person of color as universally known and respected as either Heston or Selleck.
Maybe you could talk to Carlos Estevez, but that ain't gonna happen
But Beerslurpy is right as far, as I have know, I have never met a rabidly anti gun Hispanic in Fla.
And I was married to a PR girl for 10 years and 75% of the people I know now Hispanic now.
Now Asians, that's a whole nother story
Marshall
Member
Art, thanks.
I know what he was trying to say, I'm just pointing out how what he has said can come across and suggesting he think of other phrases to use and ways to desribe what he's looking for.
I know what he was trying to say, I'm just pointing out how what he has said can come across and suggesting he think of other phrases to use and ways to desribe what he's looking for.
NIGHTWATCH
Member
Thanks Art, joab, that is pretty much it. Powerful organizations and faces that focus on economic empowerment and not constitutional preservation and education. Their impact on these communities cannot be ignored.
I took this topic to work with me last night to give it some thought .... two examples.
How many Jews turned their heads when the JPFO came into existence?
How many in the gay community stopped to think when The Pink Pistols was formed?
Get me? Americans are the most socially, culturally and politically fractured people on the planet, why? Because of our diversity. The barriers go when something bad happens, but during times of relative peace we tend to splinter.
Single issue battles such as the struggle for the RKBA can be won when a broad spectrum of gunowners are represented. That said, the latin American population is going to explode. Common sense dictates that we begin educating and planting seeds now by putting a powerful colored face and voice on the RKBA in America and to those way south of the border in spanish. As it stands now, the loadest colored voice on this issue is Kofi Annan.
Do you now see the need Marshal? Our fight is not limited to our soil. This is global because just about every nation outside our borders wants to see us disarmed. We had better start informing them as they come in.
I took this topic to work with me last night to give it some thought .... two examples.
How many Jews turned their heads when the JPFO came into existence?
How many in the gay community stopped to think when The Pink Pistols was formed?
Get me? Americans are the most socially, culturally and politically fractured people on the planet, why? Because of our diversity. The barriers go when something bad happens, but during times of relative peace we tend to splinter.
Single issue battles such as the struggle for the RKBA can be won when a broad spectrum of gunowners are represented. That said, the latin American population is going to explode. Common sense dictates that we begin educating and planting seeds now by putting a powerful colored face and voice on the RKBA in America and to those way south of the border in spanish. As it stands now, the loadest colored voice on this issue is Kofi Annan.
Do you now see the need Marshal? Our fight is not limited to our soil. This is global because just about every nation outside our borders wants to see us disarmed. We had better start informing them as they come in.
Marshall
Member
My question, whom do you suggest?
NIGHTWATCH
Member
Good question....gimme a night on that one. 
seansean
Member
Quote:
Here's the thing, everywhere in the world Hispanics or Blacks are in sole charge you have enormous corruption, authoritarianism, no gun freedom and, periodically, genocide.
yeah, cause, there's no history of that in white european culture
Little thing called slavery, and what white europeans did to the native americans, both of which qualify as genocide, IMHO, but that debate's for another day. We dealt with some of this in another thread. Education and understanding on both sides beats stereotypes any day.
btw, "colored"??!!"
Here's the thing, everywhere in the world Hispanics or Blacks are in sole charge you have enormous corruption, authoritarianism, no gun freedom and, periodically, genocide.
yeah, cause, there's no history of that in white european culture
Little thing called slavery, and what white europeans did to the native americans, both of which qualify as genocide, IMHO, but that debate's for another day. We dealt with some of this in another thread. Education and understanding on both sides beats stereotypes any day.
btw, "colored"??!!"
Some thoughts..
Forgive the way I might come across... every Latino (mostly Cubans - which are Spaniards) I know is pro RKBA. My aim is not to slam anybody here, or anywhere.
I find it curious that every little ethnic minority in this country can create various & sundry groups for advocacy on 100 different causes. They can get press time, fiercely lobby representatives in government, and try to shape the lawmaking process, except concerning a few large ethnic groups and RKBA.
Is a "whitey appointed" new NRA director going to be seen as "legitimate" to any of these folk? Or will it be seen as "whitey finding another Uncle Tom for us to follow" and be an insult? I would put money on the NAACP quoting me...
I think RKBA advocacy is the same as any other. There will either be groups NRA/GOA/JPFO/PinkPistols/etc. whose message people will identify with (if not the faces) and join, or they will start their own if so inclined.
So far, I don't see many RKBA organizations flourishing under the banner of "color and the 2A". Either these people are well served by the current smorgasbord, or they don't feel the need to publicly support RKBA for their ethnic group, separate from others.
A little understanding however, goes a long way.
Be inclusive (i.e. not an ignorant jackass or bigot). Take kids/adults to the range, help folks learn the shooting sports, gun safety, and educate them about why America was founded on rights like the 2A... that's the way to help everyone. Trying to put up somebody as a faceplate on the NRA BOD is silly, a waste of time, and will likely backfire.
In time, it will happen naturally, until then, make progress yourself.
Forgive the way I might come across... every Latino (mostly Cubans - which are Spaniards) I know is pro RKBA. My aim is not to slam anybody here, or anywhere.
I find it curious that every little ethnic minority in this country can create various & sundry groups for advocacy on 100 different causes. They can get press time, fiercely lobby representatives in government, and try to shape the lawmaking process, except concerning a few large ethnic groups and RKBA.
Is a "whitey appointed" new NRA director going to be seen as "legitimate" to any of these folk? Or will it be seen as "whitey finding another Uncle Tom for us to follow" and be an insult? I would put money on the NAACP quoting me...
I think RKBA advocacy is the same as any other. There will either be groups NRA/GOA/JPFO/PinkPistols/etc. whose message people will identify with (if not the faces) and join, or they will start their own if so inclined.
So far, I don't see many RKBA organizations flourishing under the banner of "color and the 2A". Either these people are well served by the current smorgasbord, or they don't feel the need to publicly support RKBA for their ethnic group, separate from others.
A little understanding however, goes a long way.
Be inclusive (i.e. not an ignorant jackass or bigot). Take kids/adults to the range, help folks learn the shooting sports, gun safety, and educate them about why America was founded on rights like the 2A... that's the way to help everyone. Trying to put up somebody as a faceplate on the NRA BOD is silly, a waste of time, and will likely backfire.
In time, it will happen naturally, until then, make progress yourself.
Marshall
Member
Nighthawk, whomever who choose, his nickname, from everyone, will end up being Token. I still don't like the idea.
DigitalWarrior
Member
Hahahhahahahahahaha
True:
Asia
Middle East
Europe
Africa
South America
North America
Not True:
Antarctica
This is really dumb. This is almost true everywhere.
True:
Asia
Middle East
Europe
Africa
South America
North America
Not True:
Antarctica
RevDisk
Member
I see you haven't studied European history much, have you?
Or heck, American history either.
How to increase RKBA amoung minorities? The exact same way you increase RKBA regardless. Take folks to the range. Help them buy their first gun. Awareness of the Constitution. etc, etc.
I've taught firearm safety and marksmenship to people of various skin colours. Black, white, Asian, Arab, you name it. It's a small thing, but I like to think I made an impact in a few people's lives.
Sam
Member
My greatest fear for the United States is that we will become fragmented into a lot of self identifying groups that no longer hold their primary allegience to the United States.
Assimilate and succeed, separate and wither on the vine and die.
Nightwatch,
If you were a hispanic of some note, would you want to be the token at the NRA/GOA?
JFPO's problem too, they have marginalized themselves. Set up as a minority group. Does not matter what the percentage of non Jewish membership is, they are the Jewish 2nd Amendment group and will always be identified that way.
Sam
Assimilate and succeed, separate and wither on the vine and die.
Nightwatch,
If you were a hispanic of some note, would you want to be the token at the NRA/GOA?
JFPO's problem too, they have marginalized themselves. Set up as a minority group. Does not matter what the percentage of non Jewish membership is, they are the Jewish 2nd Amendment group and will always be identified that way.
Sam
NIGHTWATCH
Member
I fail to see how a handful of respected, well known and outspoken American citizens of color would not be a great thing for our cause, sorry. What are you saying? Keep it all white?...
Is that it? Thats what the problem is in the first place.Yeah, talking about being diverse is one thing, but when the canvas is white from the start, what kind of picture will you create with white paint?
Marshall
Member
A truthful picture. You're asking to have a "person of color" appointed out of the blue just because of his or her skin color. Isn't that painting a picture?
NIGHTWATCH
Member
Not "out of the blue" Marshal but to start planning a realistic long-term strategy for the future. Not because of a persons skin color but because we are a diverse people.
Marshall
Member
But it is out of the blue. You're asking to just find a colored face for painting a picture differently than it is currently.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe there all all kinds of Mexicans and Blacks faunching at the bit to be the spokesman and the whites just won't let them. Wonder who they are? Any ideas?
NIGHTWATCH
Member
Let us go back to california Marshal for the moment....
Who there is defending what is left of the 2nd Amendment and why is that battle being lost?
Who there is defending what is left of the 2nd Amendment and why is that battle being lost?
Marshall
Member
Who do you want to appoint?
NIGHTWATCH
Member
The obvious problem here is first how, not who. When was the last time that any RKBA org flooded cali with spanish pro-gun media much in the same way corporations do? A campaign to reach out to blacks and people of color that seeks to identify and enlist them for this fight? If the effort was made we would have a number of patriotic people stepping up to the plate. What is happening in cali could be reversed.
Again...Who there is defending the 2nd Amendment and why is that battle being lost?
Marshall
Member
Spanish?
Just another reason they need to speak english. If they did you wouldn't have this problem. Besides, I don't want someone who can't speak or read english to have a gun around me. If they can't understand when I say "don't shoot, I'm your friend" or read signs like "no tresspassing" and "range closed" why would I want them to have a gun around me? Heck, they may even try to shoot the wrong caliber ammo if they can't read the box.
This discussion is kind of mute if you can't think of anyone to be the Token, one who will accept that position and one who truly has a record, a history of pro-gun rights, a record that can't be carved to death by the anti's.
So, who do you have in mind that fits the bill. Since they have to be Black or Mexican for it to work, they better be a Californian too. Oh, pick one that's the same height and weight as most of them since they have to relate to their own kind. Should they be one that can't speak english too?
Seriously, come on man.
NIGHTWATCH
Member
Are we talking about the human right to Keep and Bear Arms or how you dont want to be around people who are different?
You just proved my point.
The bottom line for corporations is $$$. They spend billions on spanish commercial campaigns annually to sell their products. Why cant you see that our bottom line is winning minds over to our cause???
Your reasoning is starting to bleed at the seams and I think its because you just dont like the idea of what Im advocating.
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