"My gun jammed..."

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This is why the code in Utah includes "With the intent to commit a felony".

There is a whole list of reasons the second guy might have been with the first guy. Drunk, mentally impaired, under duress, who knows? CERTAINLY NOT THE GUY IN THE HOUSE WITH A SHOTGUN WHO DIDN'T EVEN KNOW HE WAS THERE. It's not the odds, it's the stakes.

About 15 years ago, a sheriff in Utah came into his living room on Saturday morning to find a guy passed out on his couch. His buddies thought it would be a good joke to let the guy in and have him pass out on the sheriff's couch. Criminal mischief and trespassing charges. DEADLY FORCE WAS NOT JUSTIFIED.
 
THE GUY IN THE HOUSE WITH A SHOTGUN WHO DIDN'T EVEN KNOW HE WAS THERE.

Are you saying it might have been a detached arm arranged to look like it was reaching through the broken open doorway? Or did I miss something?
 
the rest of the posters in this thread have abstained from personally disparaging remarks.

If you will kindly point out to me any disparaging remarks directed at any specific individual, I will not only retract them but apologize posthaste. The generic 'you' and 'your' are intended thusly- as generic references to unspecified individuals. If my choice of words obliterated my intent in that regard, I apologize for that and assure you that was not what was intended.

In my original statement, I said "Should we assume 'a duty to warn' as part of our plan for handling an event of this nature?" My question was meant to address that definition of 'assume' that indicates a willingness "to take to or upon oneself" ( http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assume ). The emphasis in my mind was and is on the advantages of the assumption of the opportunity to avoid the exercise any level of force, if in fact circumstances would seem to permit that option.

Is there anyone here who would argue that it's better just to shoot, or shoot at, someone who might otherwise be frightened away by a verbal challenge, given that circumstances permit a verbal challenge as a reasonable approach without increasing the risk to the defender and the defended?

Is there anyone here who, upon hearing a noise or noises indicating the definite presence of an unknown person in their house, would immediately take that person under fire at the earliest opportunity without even yelling "Who's there?" That is, of course, given that such a challenge could be issued with no perceptible risk to the challenger?

Is it really so dangerous to yell at an unknown and not yet fully visible apparent would-be intruder before he gains full entry into the home, that we dare not attempt it?

I'd rather not think there's any serious disagreement here on what any reasonable person would do in the sort of event described in the original story. That is, standing shotgun in hand, looking across a room at an exterior door after hearing obviously assaultive activity at that door, seeing an arm reach through a broken window, apparently trying to reach the lock and open the door.

So far the available options seem to be 1) shoot, or 2) yell.

What would 'a person of reasonable firmness,' which is the way the enforcers of my state's statues expect me to behave, do in this situation? Shoot first, or ask questions?

We obviously can't cover every possible home invasion scenario, so for the sake of further discussion here let's limit ourselves to what the individual in the original story says he saw- one apparently empty hand, groping through a broken window, with the other hand and the rest of the individual out of sight outside the door.

lpl
 
I would verbally challenge the intruder from behind the best available cover. My goal is to stop the break in, and there is a fair chance that would do it. If, after a loud, aggressive warning including the fact that I am armed and the police are on the way did not deter this guy, then when he came around that door jam he would be shot. I'm not in this situation for justice. I'm in it for survival. Whether or not he got away is someone else's concern.

The other points regarding storage, maintenance, training, and ammo selection have been well made. As well as the inadvisability of talking as much as this man did after the fact.

I'd be tickled with the result (break in stopped, no one dead) but critical of my general preparedness and performance.

Steve
 
This is why rule #4 ALWAYS applies.

Not sure that's why it always applies, but then again I'm pretty sure I wasn't arguing whether it always applies one way or t'other. I, personally, wouldn't have shot when the person in the original story did. However, it wouldn't have been the potential violation of Rule #4 that stopped me, and I've got to admit (given that there was a gun found outside) that my restraint might have resulted in a worse outcome for everyone.

I don't see the relevance of a potential accomplice to the decision to shoot the known threat. The fact that there may be an accomplice doesn't change how you respond to the threat you know. Even if you invited the primary attacker in and discussed the situation before the shooting started you wouldn't positively know there wasn't someone else waiting outside. Quite possibly between you and what you have every reason to expect are safe backstops (e.g. in your crawlspace if your house has one), and all bullets penetrate houses well enough to be dangerous. You work with the facts you have, and do the best you can, but when the badness starts you are exposed to risks whether you chose to be or not.

Personally, I think I have an ethical responsibility to do the minimum harm possible while stopping the violation of my rights. It has nothing to do with the 4 rules, or 12 steps, or even the possibility of shooting incautious friends who barge into my home uninvited, and everything to do with my willingness to accept a certain amount of risk in order to be the sort of person I want to be...which includes being a person who doesn't kill unnecessarily. That's my choice though. Clearly, a lot of people choose differently.
 
if you have a weapon always have it and yourself ready. You weapon is no use if you can't depend on it and if your mind is not conditioned to fight.
 
Is there anyone here who would argue that it's better just to shoot, or shoot at, someone who might otherwise be frightened away by a verbal challenge, given that circumstances permit a verbal challenge as a reasonable approach without increasing the risk to the defender and the defended?

Back on the first page, I made mention of the idea of an ensconced defender, with the implication that our original hero totally screwed this one up as well. 5 pages later and we still have not yet had more than a couple of passing mentions of gaining a better tactical position.

I'd say that the better part of valor would be to be able to put oneself in a position where a verbal challenge can be made. There are at least two good reasons that I can see for this: one is (as above) to be able to issue a challenge in hopes that it will avoid bloodshed and two, even if you choose not to issue a verbal challenge, the fact that you *could* puts you in a much better position to respond if the "other arm" comes through the door with a 9mm attached to it.

Frankly, this sort of strikes me as self-preservation 101... anyone else here as inclined as me to hunker down behind something solid (with functional scattergun) and wait for folks to come to them? My stereo is cheap, my life is not.
 
anyone else here as inclined as me to hunker down behind something solid (with functional scattergun) and wait for folks to come to them? My stereo is cheap, my life is not.

I'm right there with you. And while I'm starting to worry that this might be an unpopular sentiment on this board, I'm also of the inclination that my stereo is worth less than the life of the guy stealing it.
 
I have no disagreements with challenging the intruder if situation allows, I also have no disagreement to shooting thru a door if the situation dictated either. My disagreement and frustration is the implication the violation of rule #4 will superceed the law. Anyone who uses deadly force, whether its a firearm, knife or baseball bat, has a great responsibility in there hands. You stand a better chance of living and staying out of jail obeying the laws not neccessaraly obeying safety rules.
 
shockwave said:
Unless I'm mistaken, the bulk of discussion wasn't that there is a "duty" to warn as such, but that there is a need to identify the person you are about to shoot. In the case study under discussion, this is a critical issue. What if someone were pounding on your door, very hard. Would you call out "who is it?" (or "identify yourelf," etc.) or would you put a few rounds through the door and then open it?

That post of mine was in response to a specific post/question posed by Lee Lapin and had nothing to do with the "Rule Four A-Go-Go."

LL said:
jfruser said:
the rest of the posters in this thread have abstained from personally disparaging remarks.

If you will kindly point out to me any disparaging remarks directed at any specific individual, I will not only retract them but apologize posthaste. The generic 'you' and 'your' are intended thusly- as generic references to unspecified individuals. If my choice of words obliterated my intent in that regard, I apologize for that and assure you that was not what was intended.

Mine was the only post that engaged your question with a gimlet eye. Dogstar addressed your question only to affirm.

Unless there once existed a mess of posts that engaged your question and were somehow deleted, I am the "you" referenced in the following:
Now for any student of the "just can't wait to shoot my first scumbag" school of self defense, you have that option. It's your house and your gunfight.
and elsewhere in the post. I think it reasonable to consider the quoted bit disparaging and that the only poster to wrestle with your post to be its object. Therefore, "personally disparaging."

Anyways, I will now assume I was in error and that your intent was otherwise.



Dogstar said:
sidheshooter said:
anyone else here as inclined as me to hunker down behind something solid (with functional scattergun) and wait for folks to come to them? My stereo is cheap, my life is not.

I'm right there with you. And while I'm starting to worry that this might be an unpopular sentiment on this board, I'm also of the inclination that my stereo is worth less than the life of the guy stealing it.

I wouldn't worry about unpoularity with internet folk. Worry about whether your chosen course of action or guidelines are viable in the face of an intruder, local legal climate, etc.

sidheshooter's suggestion would be my guide were I:
1. Single & had no kids
2. Lived in a house with any cover in the interior

But, my circumstances are a bit more complex.

1. A wife (and two small children who sleep in a different bedroom) mean that sitting tight and allowing an intruder the run of my house is a non-starter. No way in Hades I'm going to let some goblin have his way with my kiddos while I do nothing more than issue hot air.

2. A house with ZERO cover that can stop pistol or rifle rounds once inside makes "hunker[ing] down behind something solid" an impossibility. Drywall & wall studs are concealment, not cover. Any SD round capable of killing a human will penetrate several thicknesses of drywall. I'd prefer an intruder have NO chance of discharging a firearm inside my home.
 
(knock knock knock,)

BANG! BANG!

"Yes, who is it?"

Now thats really thinking like a lawyer. Twisting words and ideas to fit your idea or agenda. No one ever implied shooting someone for knocking on a door other than you and a few others. We that disagree with you have implied that when someone is breaking into your home, as what happened in this situation, we don't have to give them the opportunity to explain why they are breaking into the home.
 
Anyways, I will now assume I was in error and that your intent was otherwise.

jfruser,

(BTW, if you are addressed specifically by name in a post from me, that means the post is directed at you specifically and not the generic "you.")

Spend a couple of years or so with the responsibility for privately reproving people here (NOT YOU) for publicly stated blood lust, for harboring a 'kill 'em all let god sort 'em out' attitude, and you might better understand "the quoted bit." Believe it or not, there have actually been cases so egregious that S&T posters have been banned from THR for it. I have done some of the bans, and other staff have agreed banning was warranted.

At any rate, your newfound assumption as stated above is certainly the more correct of some you have made lately.

It's my job to make myself clear. I'm not always good at that job, I'm afraid. But I am doing what my wife the PhD refers to as "striving for clarity" here. I hope it works.

If it doesn't, you might want to consider a PM...

hth,

lpl
 
Wow, talk about the good, the bad and the ugly. There isn’t much good, well, not much beyond the fact that the man managed to live, and that seems to have been by dumb-luck. There’s some bad, and Lordy sakes there’s lots o’ ugly.

Seems pretty bad to me that the man had a previous break-in, and bought a new lock, but failed to harden the house. That the perps made it into the house with such ease, well there’s your bad component! He might better have fortified the house a la Three Little Pigs and bricks, if you get my drift. It sure goes a long way to criminal intent of it takes 127 side kicks for the perps to gain illegal access through reinforced doors.

Now it’s just plain ugly that the man stored a shotgun loaded, and unfired for four years, in a zipped case, unused, not practiced, not cleaned…oil drying out, and who knows what else is just plain ugly! The man didn’t even “know” his weapon’s tendencies. He didn’t know his own abilities and limitations. To boot, anyone could have stolen it, and I wonder if the previous burglar didn’t take it because it jammed (sarcasm). If there were children visiting, they could have played with it. Always properly secure weapons when not in use, or when not under direct adult supervision.

You know, there are a lot of oils that plain evaporate over time. Others turn gummy. Any one who plans to keep a firearm for defense, really needs to check it regularly for function, clean it, etc. Regarding intent to chase them down, there have been folks convicted for pursuing someone when the immediate threat is done. If you shoot them in the back, and outside your home in some states, that murder. Not all states are so strong on Castle Doctrine as Michigan is. My castle is where I am standing at any second of the day, even in the middle of a store or street.

Now, that said, here’s how I see such mishaps, and folks who thump their chests about I woulda done such and so. Well, yes, for fact you might have, you could have, but should you have? You could also jump off a 5-story building, but most are given pause because in doing so, you migh’ jus’ git yurself kilt. Now, as to going after the bad guy when you can, same as jumpin’ off that 5-story buildin’, you migh’ jus’ git yurself kilt! Just cuz you can, don’t mean you should.

Other than he lived, I seriously don’t see where he did much right. Sorry to be so negative, but better to be honest and hope others learn from the series of mistakes this gentleman made.

Geno
 
I don't see myself shooting at an arm through the front door. There are too many things that can go wrong. He was GUESSING his target and what's beyond it, he didn't KNOW.

lol...

Someone kicking in your door... glass shattering...

It's a safe guess that the target is a would be home invader.
 
The statement "I have a gun" would have got the same results as shooting the 16 year old. ( I would have shot anyway as arm is not part of my broken door)
The problem is the kid would probably be out working with his buddy's the next night, instead he's now in the system and might never do something that stupid again.
I like the choice of defence ammo (birdshot) same as mine. but would never keep gun in gun case. I use a simple dust sleeve on my 870 in the closet above doors.
If the case zipper stuck it was probably from lack of use. BAD-BAD-BAD, needs to rethink home defence procedures and access.
If shotgun maintenance is ignored guns jam. Usually with next round stuck down in mag tube with rust(from gun case).
I keep a 9mm in bedside table to cover access to closet, then give 9mm to wife after getting shotgun and charging it.
I think this gentleman did what he could but was very very lucky they ran.

I have a memory problem and I forgot the most important statement. If the gentleman in question had a home defense plan he failed miserably in implementing it, or reviewing and updating after a previous attempted breakin. I don't know if his load of birdshot was intentional or not, but my intent is I've been involved in too many deadly situations in my life and would rather wound than kill if possible and birdshot doesn't show a dedicated will to kill. There is also my statement that I would have fired at the arm myself as there was very little chance of deadly result because of the choice of shotgun load.
 
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Bottom line is that the homeowner is safe and one perp is in the system.

I like his choice of birdshot over any large buckshot. (No ACLU lawyer can accuse him of "preparing to hunt people.")

With his fumbling with the case zipper, he has probably already "re-thunk" the HD shotgun storage issue. With the one-shot issue, he has also probably already changed his shotgun maintenance regimen and familiarity/practice schedule and maybe even changed his choice of make and model shotgun.

Even though there was a lot of luck on the homeowner's side, at the end of the day, it remains Good Guy 1, Bad Guy 0
 
It sure sounds like this guy should go buy a truckload of lottery tickets ASAP. If his one shot would have missed or failed to stop the threat, he might not be alive any more. After hearing the first shotgun blast followed by his swearing at the case / jammed gun, the kid certainly wouldnt have thought twice about using that stolen 9MM he brought with him.

P.S. was the gun fully loaded with one in the pipe while in the case? that doesnt sound like a great idea with kids in the house (even though I assume the man's step daughter was 16+)
 
I'd have been satisfied with the outcome but not with the performance of the gun.

Sounds like he might not have oiled it in four years. I imagine a lot of guns misfeed without lubrication. I own one like that. It fires about 100 shots before it dries out and becomes a jam-o-matic.
 
It's a safe guess that the target is a would be home invader.

Before you discharge a firearm at another citizen, it is the owner's responsibility to identify the target. The lawyers, jury and judge may not be sympathetic to the owner's guesswork. If you are guessing, then you do not know.
 
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