My gun show experiences as a dealer

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H

H_AMMER

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Toledo Ohio
I've been a licensed dealer for over 35 years.
I have always endeavored to comply with the rules as laid forth by the BATF.
I used to set up at the local gun show.
I don't anymore.
Typically:
Someone would be set up next to me or down the row from me that was a "casual seller".
The potential buyer would come up to my table, point at my handguns and ask "You got paper on those?".
Then that customer would go down the aisle and purchase the same item, usually at a slight premium.
One time I asked one of those "casual sellers" if he was even sure that his buyer was 21.
I was told, not so politely, to mind my own affairs.
 
You should move to Colorado, we haven't been able to make a free transfer at a gun show for years.
Better yet get behind the UBC movement back there in Ohio and get it made into law there.
After July all transfers here will be on paper, and now the state gets their $10 on everyone.
Be careful what you wish for.
 
A casual seller who doesn't hold an FFL may sell a handgun to anyone over 18, unless there's something in Ohio law that states otherwise.

I'm not sure what kind of "paperwork" they're looking for (or not looking for), but a lot of people seem to think that a 4473 form is some kind of registration, so many don't like filling them out.

Nevertheless, unless they knowingly sold to a minor or felon, they weren't acting outside the law.
 
Many of us feel that any form that can be inspected, collected, viewed, or otherwise connected to an individual through identification, and includes a description of a firearm and it's unique information to include the serial number is a form of "registration", regardless of who stores that form or for how long. We see any gun that has a 4473 connected to it as "papered", and those which may have been exchanged at some point down the road and without recorded sale as "un-papered", and likely worth a small premium. Now I realize that most firearms sold as new since 1968(?) have some paperwork attached when first sold from many dealers, but the "cash & carry" market that thrives in certain states is very important to lots of folks. When states such as California have outlawed most transactions that do not go through a dealer, un-papered firearms are highly desirable in that the state has no idea of where they are, or who owns them.
 
It's competition. I walk a gun show with a rifle or pistol just about every time I go - just to have something as you never know. I'll generally price below market by $20 or so, perhaps a bit more, but rarely do I price wholesale. Most dealers who ask to look offer a low-ball somewhere around half value. Yeah, I know, you have to sell a product. No, I don't mind, but don't get offended when my lowest offer and yours are too far apart.

A few months back, a dealer did get dirty and tried to tell me my M14 made with USGI parts was worn out - this was during the height of the panic and he was really selling high. That was fine, he could sell as he would. I was selling mine for what I had in it - $1,100. It was a bargain no matter what. I told him it had a TE of 1.5 and a low muzzle wear number which I cannot remember. It was Winchester parts on a Federal Ordnance receiver. The parts alone are going for $1,200 so I was comfortable with the deal. But this guy tried to screw me by saying, a bit louder than normal conversation, that my gun was worn out. I told him with the TE of 1.5 it wasn't worn out - heck it was just broken in. He said there were heavy wear marks all over. He had already taken the action from the stock and so I held it up and asked him to show the wear marks and he pointed in vague ways, still louder than normal conversation, that it was all worn out. But he did it loud enough so that others heard - I don't know if he was trying to bias other buyers or what, but others were looking over. He wasn't going to turd my rifle, though.

I smiled and started putting it back together. He asked the price and I told him it wasn't for sale and he wanted to argue the point. I sold it two tables down from him to a dealer. I got my price and it was still in the height of the panic so I'm sure the other guy got what he wanted. It was, after all, 100% USGI outside the receiver.

There are plenty of guys I respect at the shows. I don't care for many of the "casual sellers" either. But I've dealt with too many dealers who wanted to have C&R status removed and wanted to ban casual sellers. Why? Just so that they would not have competition.
 
The potential buyer would come up to my table, point at my handguns and ask "You got paper on those?".
Click to expand...

(Also, what is it supposed to mean?)
 
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"Paper" as referred to above, means 4473s. While it can be a felon avoiding a FFL as they can't pass a back ground check, there are a lot of folks that simply dislike the government knowing what they own.
 
Our local shows became all private sellers. They are actually dealing in firearms without a license but ATF is to busy to do anything about it. Problem is when a whole gun show is cash and carry it starts to draw people that are unsavory.
Last show I went to the county police arrested a number of people for being felons in possession of firearms, and a few others for dealing in stolen firearms.
I stopped going because I don't want a stolen gun.
 
Our local shows became all private sellers. They are actually dealing in firearms without a license but ATF is to busy to do anything about it. Problem is when a whole gun show is cash and carry it starts to draw people that are unsavory.
Last show I went to the county police arrested a number of people for being felons in possession of firearms, and a few others for dealing in stolen firearms.
I stopped going because I don't want a stolen gun.
Click to expand...

Wow, it is complete opposite where I am. The tables here are basically all licensed dealers, the only people doing private selling are the ones with older WWII era firearms.
 
Here in Virginia we have clowns who have no ffl,try to get buyers to fill out a homemade 4473.It is usually all of the questions on a 4473 in a line format.
 
I guess the question we need to ask ourselves is if all gun show transactions have to be done through a 4473 as in CO. will criminals still get guns? or better yet should there be only FFL's allowed to make transactions anywhere will it stop criminals from getting guns?
And last, who's rights suffer under laws like that?
 
I can understand the OP's frustration. Been there.
Click to expand...

I understand the frustration of being undercut on a sale. However that's part of being in business.

One time I asked one of those "casual sellers" if he was even sure that his buyer was 21.
I was told, not so politely, to mind my own affairs.
Click to expand...

I would never knowingly sell or furnish a firearm to a prohibited or underage person, so, with that in mind if I had been the seller I would have told you pretty much the same thing.

As a consumer, I am not in any way a prohibited person. I purchase firearms regularly with no issues. However, you give me an opportunity to buy one without a 4473, and I'll do it every time for the simple reason Al mentioned in post #10. The less the government knows about what I own, the better I like it.
 
The OP is offering competitive products at lower prices, so I'm not sure I'm getting the frustration.

"Casual sellers" or "hobbyists" have been upheld in court against the ATF: http://m.clevescene.com/gyrobase/gunning-for-trouble/Content?oid=1472561

If you want to hang up the license and become a hobbyist, have at it. I don't necessarily recommend it though as you can see, you could beat the rap buy might not beat the ride.

I have a relative who will not fill out a 4473; not a felon or prohibited in any way, he's just that way. He'll happily pay a premium and in fact has no idea at all in regards to gun values. Gotta plain jane model 700 synthetic .243 with scope? He'll give you $700 for it. How about a Haskell JS-45? He'll pay $250 for that one and he'll tell you that when 'they' come for our guns, no one will be knocking on his door.

He is not in the market share that licensees should worry themselves about.
 
alsaqr said:
This is another federal law that is seldom enforced....
Click to expand...
And that still leaves the question of how frequently is "seldom." In addition to the articles you linked to, in this post I cite a number of federal court cases upholding convictions for dealing in guns without a license.

So this sort of conduct does get prosecuted, and people do get convicted. Maybe not everyone and maybe not all the time, but there is a real risk.
 
I went to a show several years ago to dispose of my father-in-law's guns, about 12 rifles and 8 handguns. I do not have a license. I was asked by a number of people if I was a dealer because of the number of firearms I had on the table, and I always said no, these are a lifetime collection being disposed of, no trades and no buying.

I had no problems, and had BATF stopped by I would have told them the same thing, I am not a dealer, I am not dealing, I am not trading, I am not buying, I am dispoising of a collection, and when these are gone, there will be no more. No reason to have a problem.

When selling, I did ask for state ID simply to prove residency, and most buyers had no problems showing ID. I did not record anything since state laws do not require it.
 
medalguy said:
...I had no problems, and had BATF stopped by I would have told them the same thing, I am not a dealer, I am not dealing, I am not trading, I am not buying, I am dispoising of a collection, and when these are gone, there will be no more. No reason to have a problem....
Click to expand...
And you were probably okay under the circumstances as you describe them. But the question of when a license is required is not a simple one. The issue was discussed in some length in this thread.
 
Frank Ettin:

In the couple cases you mention the person convicted was selling firearms at a flea market. Most flea markets have different arrangements for renting tables, they have one time rentals, and short term rentals, so that a person can sell their own possessions much like having a garage sale or yard sale.

However they also have booths for people in the business of buying and selling stuff. We have a 'junk dealer' license in my area, that among other things requires the collection of sales taxes.

So if someone is at a flea market in a booth operating a 'junk shop' the number of firearms they may sell without a FFL at their booth is ZERO. The booth is a store, and any store selling firearms is required to have a FFL.

Logically if you rent a table at a gun show as a collector and swap interesting guns your likely legal with a C&R or even no license, however if you have a whole table of 91/30s you just got from online and your selling for profit, odds are your in a pickle as a C&R does not cover that.

If your actively buying and selling firearm parts, selling beef jerky, or selling food as a business it is likely highly unwise to sell any firearms at the same location.

What I see at the local gunshow here is people buying guns from walmart and adding a scope and selling them, or putting 10/22s into those crankfire stocks and selling the whole thing.. Or they have a LLC for selling tapco parts and they have a stack of tapco'd out guns with a piece of paper saying "personal property sold separately". :scrutiny:

I'm all for people being allowed to sell their own guns at a gunshow freely, but gunshows need to cleanup their own house before its done for them by the feds.
 
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What I see at the local gunshow here is people buying guns from walmart and adding a scope and selling them, or putting 10/22s into those crankfire stocks and selling the whole thing.. Or they have a LLC for selling tapco parts and they have a stack of tapco'd out guns with a piece of paper saying "personal property sold separately".
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All of which puts the seller at risk for being popped not only for dealing without a license, but manufacturing without a license and tax evasion (FAET).
 
csspecs said:
...So if someone is at a flea market in a booth operating a 'junk shop' the number of firearms they may sell without a FFL at their booth is ZERO. The booth is a store, and any store selling firearms is required to have a FFL.

Logically if you rent a table at a gun show as a collector and swap interesting guns your likely legal with a C&R or even no license, however if you have a whole table of 91/30s you just got from online and your selling for profit, odds are your in a pickle as a C&R does not cover that....
Click to expand...
In those cases, those points were not raised as issues by the courts. I've discussed the factors that the courts have found to be material to the question of whether someone is acting as a dealer in guns without the proper license. Or can you cite some federal appellate court decisions supporting your views?

Your opinion of what's "logical" is meaningless unless you can cite some court decisions backing you up.
 
UBC and special interests

Years ago, licensed plumbers in NJ routinely designed and installed septic systems in rural areas. I never heard of a problem with them and everybody I knew in rural southern Jersey had such a system.

Then, some college educated engineers decided they needed a part of the action, and lobbied the government to require each new or repaired system have a certified "design" drawn up by (do you see where this is going?) an engineer.

Engineers began charging $2,800 to $5,000 to "design" a system and give their blessing to your new system.

More often than not, these were "canned" systems placed on a drawing of your property produced by the local authorities for tax purposes. Pretty much the number of bedrooms dictated which of the engineers drawings would be transposed on the tax map. Nothing more than the licensed plumbers were doing for years.

So, you still had to pay the plumber the same money for installing the system, but had to add the engineers fees to the cost of your system, in many cases doubling the cost with no increase in value to you, the homeowner.

Might I suggest that ffl dealers have a financial interest in UBC, as they will see an increase in business and income with no limit on what they could charge for "transfers".

I know a dealer in NJ who is very active in fighting any and all anti gun legislation that comes down the pike, with the one exception of UBC, which he supports.....who would of thought?

Just my two cents worth.
 
A few months back, a dealer did get dirty and tried to tell me my M14 made with USGI parts was worn out - this was during the height of the panic and he was really selling high.
Click to expand...

I had a dealer mock the price I was asking for a very nice 10/22. It was the same, uninflated price I paid for it at a gun shop, I'd just shot about 100 rounds and decided it wasn't for me. He had ZERO 10/22s on his rack to sell. He wasn't mocking the price to me, but to a potential buyer of said 10/22. That that was pretty lousy and spoke poorly of him. Won't buy anything from him...ever.

I swear that many gun dealers are their own worst enemies. Hopefully after the market corrects, the lousy ones will go under and be replace by more civilized, fair and honest human beings.
 
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