my house defense scenario - help me select a gun

[GEM]

TX has a wealth of qualified trainers. IMHO, a quality firearm benefits the most from training. Pax and Fred make the point well.

For example, from Houston take a trip along 290 to www.krtraining.com.

The basic SD courses will do you much good as compared to the ever popular equipment solutions.

Whenever, someone says they want to debate what shotgun to use - I say, get training first.

 

[meanmrmustard]

I disagree, Ranger. If it were my wife, God forbid her adrenaline took vacation and she weighed her options when an intruder is climbing into a window or breaking the door in. PCP or not, a 20 gauge load to the chest and/or head and neck area will do substantial damage to the vitals, in turn causing trauma to the life sustaining functions a body needs. A pistol round may make one hole. A shotgun makes many. Spread energy makes for weaker hits, but the damage of the shotgun lies in number, and the fact you do not need to be a surgeon to hit with it. Practice is necessary, and that one shot to the head or chest is what may save your loved ones.

 

[mnrivrat]

Lot of opinions here and I'll give mine as well .

First is a Youth model 20ga . Preferance to a reliable auto, but pump is just fine.

Quality pistol cartridge carbine is my second opinion (semi-auto), although I see nothing the matter with a handgun.

 

[tuj]

Well we've both been thinking about this more, and our scenarios have be refined a little bit more.

1) Same as before, both my wife and I are asleep in the bedroom.
2) My wife is asleep but I am still awake in the living room.
3) My wife is home alone, either in the living room or asleep in the bedroom.

The layout of our house is such that the living room defends the bedroom. The other thing is that there is a straight shot from the front door to where I usually sit in the living room, so if someone was to come with purpose and break down the door, time is going to be very short to bring a weapon to bear. So with these scenarios in mind, we've decided that we need something that is easily portable from the living room to the bedroom at night. That is pushing us in the pistol direction. I am thinking about a Glock 34 (holstered, although not worn), to be kept in the living room and transported into the bedroom when we are asleep.

Tried to get to the range this weekend but the wait was over and hour and a half just to get a lane so we're going to try again this week and see if we can't rent a G34 and see how she likes it. I also like the G34 because it would let me do IDPA if I so decide in the future (where the G17L is too long apparently). The G34 also has one of the lighter triggers so I figure that will help my wife, who is sensitive to hard trigger pulls.

Also thinking about the S&W 5906 and the Beretta PX-4. I've shot a 92FS (recommended earlier in the thread) and I didn't like the trigger at all, DA or SA.

I would say that 95% of the time or more, I'm home, and I'd be the one taking the defensive stand with the gun, but I want to of course make sure my wife is comfortable with the G34 and hopefully enjoys shoot it like she enjoys the 22.

We may decide to supplement the plan with a youth shotgun 20ga in the bedroom, but one gun at a time. We also will be looking into training.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Thanks for the update ... keep at it, and IMHO making one firearms and training decision at a time is definitely enough. So far it seems to me you're doing well, just don't stop making progress. It does take a while to get this stuff done, especially if it's done well, and rushing it isn't likely to help much.

 

[FandFForum]

I definately agree that a shotgun would be the best bet to keep in the bedroom along with a handgun that can be transported throughout the house. I personally use a 12 gauge with a 6 round mag in the bedroom along with a large caliber double action revolver (ease of use in a tense situation). There would be nothing wrong with a 20 gauge either to lessen the recoil. You could check the house with a revolver while you wife stays in the bedroom with the shotgun. That would be best to handle a night invasion in my opinion.

 

[tuj]

Well we decided on a pistol, ordered a S&W 5906 TSW after trying the Glock 34 against one. The Glock had a lighter trigger, but the recoil felt sharper (as would be expected) to my wife than the all-steel gun. My wife also felt much more comfortable with the active safety/decocker on the 5906 and the relative 'safety' of the heavier DA first pull. We plan to keep the gun with one in the chamber, safety off, hammer down. AFAIK, that is a safe configuration for the 5906, right? (sorry I'm mostly familiar with the 1911 in which that would NOT be safe)

I already have a laserlyte system for my 1911's which I use for dry-fire practice, so I ordered the 9mm laser cartridge to be able to practice with the 5906. Also ordered a Streamlight TLR-1 to mount.

Next steps are:
-upgrade of front and rear doors and master bedroom door and associated locks
-looking into training classes for myself and my wife
-considering a 20ga for the bedroom
-selecting and testing a defensive load for reliability (thinking about ASYM SDX)
-practice, ordered up a bunch of FMJ rounds to hit the range with!

 

[Fred Fuller]

Sounds good so far.

I wasn't familiar with ASYM Precision ammunition, on looking at it it seems similar to CorBon DPX, which is what I carry daily (in .38 Spl). It looks as if it should work - http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=45183/Product/ASYM-PRECISION-9MM-AMMO .

Who are you considering for training?

 

[Sheepdog1968]

A long arm is better as has longer sight radius. The most important thing will be to get solid training. I think you need to work with your wife and rent, borrow a variety of long arms to see what she can tolerate. Make sure you try shooting it offhand as recoil wont be as bad. A semi auto rifle either M1 carbine or 223 should have minimal recoil. A laser is not really needed but id get a weapon mountain light installed.

 

[tuj]

@Fred - ASYM is easily some of the best ammo on the market IMHO. I use their FMJ practical match 45acp load for bullseye competition and its as good or better than quality hand-loads. Their ammo is super-consistent from the chrono data that I've seen. I have no doubt that their defense load will be a good one.

As for training, I'm not sure yet who to go with, but one of the ranges I frequent offers a number of defensive and 'tactical' training courses. One problem seems to be that a lot of the courses I see offered at the various ranges go like this:

Class 1 - gun safety, function, fire 50 rounds, mostly classroom
Class 2 - focus on accuracy, fire 150 rounds
Class 3 - focus on improving speed, drawing from holster, carry, etc

The problem is that I have zero interest in carrying. Maybe someday, but not now. Likewise my wife has zero interest in carrying. The other problem is that both my wife and I are not total novices to guns. I really don't want to spend a bunch of money only to sit in a classroom and be told how to clear my gun. I am a certified NRA RSO; I know how to clear a gun. I know my gun safety rules. If I felt like my wife didn't know gun safety (which she does), I would send her to my gun club's RSO class which is free.

So I'm thinking that private instruction would probably be best, maybe I can find someone who can customize a program for myself and my wife.

There's another problem, in that I'm pretty much just a target shooter. When I go to the range, I want to shoot bullseye. That's my thing; that's what I like. I've shot a little bit two-handed, but the vast majority of shooting I do is off-hand. Now obviously the two-handed hold is better but its not what I'm used to, and frankly, I'm probably more accurate off-hand. I guess I should learn more 'action-pistol'-style shooting.

@sheepdog - I agree that a long gun is fundamentally easier to shoot, point, etc. However my house is not big enough nor my property large enough to really warrant an AR-platform and associated rifle caliber cartridge. Plus, and I know this is sacrilege, but I am not really a fan of the AR platform. I do think a gun like the KSG or a pistol cartridge carbine that has a short overall length would be useful.

 

[GEM]

That's why I suggested outfits like Karl Rehn's advanced course that deal with more than the mechanics. Course that teach appropriate tactics (sigh for that word), give you stress innoculation, how to deal with the aftermath, etc. are quit important.

Just shooting on the square range for time isn't where most of the variance is - given you have solid basics.

 

[Rexster]

I am here a bit late, but if she likes the 5906, and it fits her, well, that is a very good weapon. I recommend training to always verify the position of the safety when acquiring and presenting the weapon, as a safety device can be bumped to a different position, particularly if a weapon is stored off-body, and ambidextrous levers also increase this likelihood.

Even if y'all do not plan to carry, there may come a time when a sudden circumstance makes carry a very prudent idea. (Remember Ike? Harris County is also one of the USA's leading counties for tornados.) I recommend thinking a bit about that. If you suddenly had to leave the house with a handgun, what would be the carry method? One practical way is the Safepacker, from The Wilderness, available in sizes to accommodate large handguns. (...and, no, folks do not see it and start screaming; I have toted in the Houston
area with a Safepacker for years.) Of course, carry on foot, away from one's real estate and outside one's vehicles, will require a CHL to remain legal.

Lastly, there is nothing wrong with adding a long gun to the equation. My wife likes lever-action .357 Mag rifles. She likes the idea of shotguns, but hates practicing with them. I just turned 50, and have recently liked my beloved shotgun less than before. If one is not used to running a pump or lever, and is comfortable with auto-loading pistols, an auto-loading long weapon might be better. I know how to run an AR15, and carried one as a patrol rifle for awhile, but prefer the ergonomics of the Mini-14, my current home-defense favorite. There is nothing wrong with a 9mm carbine for HD, and much right about it.

 

[Gray Paccelli]

Sir; A Remington 870 12-Gauge with a short barrel and 00 Buckshot will be your best bet.
I am sure your wife is averse to being an handled or worse. Home defense is serious business and should be unpleasant. In addition, it is essential that you both are completely familiar with every law in your area pertaining to the use of Ethan force in self-defense. If you are clear about the laws and how they are interpreted in your area, you will not end up on manslaughter charges if you are orced to take lethal action. Best of luck. I hope you never need the 870 for home defense and thatvyoubuse it with your bride or sporting purposes.

 

[mortablunt]

Longarms definitely easier to use, so a shotgun is a good idea for a low budget with ease of use that won't tick off anyone or cause controversy. Remember to use at least 0 buck whatever gauge you get. You simply do not get the penetration necessary for reliable, or even plausible forced stops from birdshot and smaller buckshot loadings. However, shotguns can be very problematic for the recoil sensitive. Another suggestion, which is more likely to generate controversy, is a pistol caliber carbine. The Hi-Point carbines are excellent guns and should definitely be considered for light recoil with decent power. I recommend these over handguns for being easier to use and aim in difficult situations as well as having handling and power advantages. At the other end of the rifle type solution, there are centerfire rifle cartridges like you'd get from an AR-15 or an SKS. These are substantially more powerful than even the high powered handguns. I don't really like the AR-15, but it is a good gun, assuming you get at least a solid 16" of rifled barrel. If the 16" consists of flash hider, then that doesn't count when it comes to terminal performance. Use the right loads that get at least 12" of penetration and mount some kind of optic. AR's are slightly complicated compared to most other solutions and can be fairly expensive. The tactical models favored for action shooting and home defense are up their in price. Alternatively, you could opt for a cheaper weapon. An SKS goes for $300 and nets you a robust, simple weapon which is easy to use and launches a much more energetic round than what comes from an AR-15. A decent AK, which is in the same caliber, can be had for $400. The only downside of AK and SKS is that their rounds are good at overpenetrating. Overpenetration will result no matter what weapon you use though, because if a weapon can reliably stop somebody forcibly, then it can go through several walls. The only way to dodge that is to lower energy and penetration which compromises effectiveness. Avoid sacrificing power for reduced overpenetration. Instead, mitigate the risks by choosing lanes of fire which discharge into something solid and bulletproof, like the ground. That is why my defensive position is on top of the stairs looking down.

 

[Riz58]

Lots of good advice here. My basic rule: shotgun backed up by a pistol.

I have a Mossberg home defense 410 shotgun for my wife loaded with buckshot. Why 410? She can handle it and fire it without flinching. Buckshot is like being shot with 3 38 rounds at once. Her pistol - her dad's old 357.

I have a semi-auto shotgun loaded with buckshot, backed by a S&W M&P in 40S&W.

Shotguns are not pistols - you do not need high volumes of rounds headed down range. Each shotgun blast with the 12 ga is like 8-9 9mm rounds being fired at someone.

 

[Walking Dead]

Being that your a handgunner Why step out of your realm with a shotgun? I think your on track with the Glock 17. And it would be something you could practice with more.

 

[B!ngo]

For your wife, who sounds like a very capable shooter who is comfortable with a .22, I'd take a look at an FN FiveSeven with a 20 round magazine. The recoil is not much different than a .22 and though there is some controversy about the round, they have been designed to be very effective without a lot of unintended wall penetration. Oh and if there really is concerned about the round, you can go on-line and purchase (at high price) the steel-cased version of the cartridge.
For you, I'd look at whatever is the duty weapon version of the .45 that you shoot or any very reliable Glock or H&K design (depending on whatever design you're comfortable with). Might also want to look at whatever the LE's are carrying in your area and match theirs.
Finally I would ALSO add a tactical barreled 12 gauge. If you are staying put somewhere, it should be the weapon of choice. But if you are forced to move, I'm not a long-gun believer.
Separately, up until last year, I was traveling quite often for work. I was 6 or 7000 miles from home, about 3/4 of the time. After a bit of this, my wife and I decided to purchase a comprehensive home alarm system (we already own a big dog). To me, other than a lock on the front door, this is really the most important line of defense.

 

[pat701]

20 gauge if mama can handle it.

 

[kcshooter]

The "hunker down and defend" mindset assumes you KNOW you have a break in happening. I'm more likely to be getting up and moving through my house to investigate a "bump in the night". I don't want to do that with a long gun.

Don't discount a handgun, especially when it's what you are familiar with. It also makes it much easier to open doors, operate a light, and dial 911 if both hands don't need to be on your weapon.

That doesn't mean I don't keep a loaded shotgun and carbine close to me when in bed, but I certainly won't be trying to walk around my house with 3 feet of gun in front of me.

 

[Texan Scott]

To the original poster:
As a veteran 'victim' of 1 (less than successful) and 2 attempted home invasion robberies, i have a bit of informed opinion (i said OPINION,of course, and we all have one ( * ), right?).
a) especially for the recoil-senitive, weight is your friend. a heavy stay-in-place revolver is one you need only point- not carry around for any period o time.
b) get something subsonic, like a .38 or .44 spec (if a revolver) or a .45 acp (if an auto pistol). i'm not one of those 'big bore bigots' (no offense meant), my point is only that while all guns are loud as $#!& indoors, breaking the sound barrier inside is ruinously loud. I've never been able to hear (not AWARE of hearing) in a real-world shooting/ SD/ HD scenario- i do have some moderate hearing loss and tinitus (thanks Uncle Sam!). True, your lives are more important than your hearing- i'd rather be alive and deaf than dead- but if a heavy, sub-sonic bullet works, i'll use that.
c) subsonic may not be an option in a long gun, but if you feel NEED a long gun, get one. (previous comments apply).
d) previous points made about hardening the house are SPOT ON! If the goblin are in the house, there's been a series of failures already, of either planning or hardware. If you're shooting a man in your bedroom doorway, he should have already have had to climb a hedge, fence, of bed of catcus; force a multi-pane window or heavy door with serious locks in a solid frame; set off the alarm system; been bitten by the dog, who is rousing the neighborhood with his barking; and by this point, the cops should already be called (from the cell phone in your bedroom) and en route. Never hesitate to USE that gun as your last line of defense, but it should be the LAST in a LONG LINE of defenses.
e) Any intruder that hasn't already been deterred by now is presumably dangerous- either because he WANTS to hurt you, or because he was too drunk/ stoned stupid to notice or care about any of the preceeding. WHY WOULD YOU GO OUT TO MEET A GOBLIN LIKE THAT? apparently, he's going to come to you anyway; stay in the bedroom and wait for him. don't endanger yourself. it should be apparent to any unbiased observer after the fact that you did everything a normal person would do, and more, to keep yourself safe without having to shoot anyone, and cornered in your bedroom, had no choice but to shoot to protect yourself from an uncommonly aggressive felon.

 

[mortablunt]

NVM, redudant post. WOW, zombie thread.