My house was broken into today

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Know your law!

Here's Oklahoma's, for example.


TITLE 21 § 1289.25. Physical or deadly force against intruder
PHYSICAL OR DEADLY FORCE AGAINST INTRUDER

A. The Legislature hereby recognizes that the citizens of the State of
Oklahoma have a right to expect absolute safety within their own
homes.

B. Any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical
force, including but not limited to deadly force, against another person
who has made an unlawful entry into that dwelling and when the
occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person might use any
physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant of the
dwelling.

C. Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including but not
limited to deadly force, pursuant to the provisions of subsection B of
this section, shall have an affirmative defense in any criminal
prosecution for an offense arising from the reasonable use of such force
and shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death
resulting from the reasonable use of such force.

D. The provisions of this section and the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-
Defense Act, Sections 1 through 25 of this act, shall not be construed to
require any person using a pistol pursuant to the provisions of this
section to be licensed in any manner.
 
I would have just racked the slide on an empty shot gun. everyone knows that noting scares the bad guys more than that. I heard the FBI is studying playing loud recordings of it during hostage situations.
 
So, someone breaks into my place, and I shoot them. They start bleeding and getting blood all over my wood floors. Am I allowed to move the body outside in order to clean up the mess before it settles? :p
 
quote by Kentac:

Do you even care if they are armed or not? Threatening you or not? Or do you just want a chance to kill? Or do you just want a chance to kill?

I would say, yes, there's a good chance you'll be charged with murder. Enjoy.

--------------------------------

If he/they are in my home ILLEGALY I am not waiting to find out if they are armed or not. And its not a question of wether or not I want to take another human life (which I dont), its the realization that I have lives to protect from someone/or people who have invaded my home. I am not waiting to find out if they only want the vcr. If you have enterd my home illegaly, the state of Louisiana agrees that I have the right to use force up to and including deadly force. I will exercise that right.

http://www.nraila.org/currentlegislation/State.aspx?ST=LA

http://www.nraila.org/currentlegislation/read.aspx?ID=2308-L

Take a cooler or the bbq pit off of my porch if you want it; but I draw the line when you enter my home. I take that as a direct threat to my life and the lives of my wife and children. You will be treated accordingly:fire:
 
Get back on topic and stop the drift.

Today my parents call and tell me that our house was broken into this afternoon. ... they got scared off by my parents coming home. Hypothetically, if I was home, heard them break in, got my shotgun and shot them both dead in my living room would I be arrested for murder or not? I heard it is better to kill them than to mame them because then they can sue you for every penny.
Click to expand...

Let's break the situation down to answer the question actually asked.

It's afternoon. The member is home. Two criminals break into the house. The member hears them break in, gets his shotgun and goes to investigate. The member finds them in the living room and shoots them.

The question is, would he be facing murder charges and is it better to kill them than wound them.

The answer is going to be - depends upon a number of factors not given.

Nevada does not incorporate language that says it is automatically reasonable to presume that someone breaking into the house while it is occupied constitutes a threat of grave bodily harm or death. It looks like it uses the standard "reasonble person" approach. A home would be expected to be occupied at night and a reasonable person would feel threatened if someone broke in at night by someone who entered the house when it should be occupied. During the day the home may not be expected to be occupied and that presumption may not always be supported. So the answere is, depends. Depends upon whether you can argue that you were reasonably in fear for your life.

You should only shoot to stop a threat and not to reduce the witnesses to those on your side. It's good that you pose this as a question since stating it as your opinion could be taken as premeditation should the tragic situation occur. Also, BGs have family and I can promise you that while dead men don't sue, their families certainly can. Stupid kids break into houses to steal "stuff", get caught in house and are killed by irate homeowner. You wanna bet suburban mom and dad won't sue your butt off? You wanna bet that crack addict mom or dad would also?

Shoot when you're in fear for your life and not because you're angry. Remember that if nothing else.
 
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I heard the FBI is studying playing loud recordings of it during hostage situations.
Click to expand...

I recall talking to an FBI SA a few years back, and he said that they make sure the suspect hears the shotgun being racked when they serve warrants.
 
Think

I am sorry the house was ransacked, items were taken.
I am grateful parents were not hurt, or worse in surprising, and scaring off the perps.

Others have shared , very well I might add, in checking into local laws, getting educated about lethal force and getting training in home security, legal, mindset, and then firearm use.

Think. What could have been done to prevent this break in?

Often Times when this type of break-in occurs :

1. Sometimes just punks being punks and not "professional". Random if you will.

2. Then again, if into some gangs, or into owing a dept to drug dealer, this breaking-in is more "professional". Thinking being if juvenile, and caught, less penalty for perps, and not "traced back" to adult drug dealers or adult gang members.

Pay attention here-

Punks are actually told to get into a house, maybe get a video camera, or something small, and case the joint. Take inventory of what folks have, how easy to access it, layout of house, property, any dogs, guns on display in a glass cabinet, silverware in glass cabinet, silver chest on a Buffet, gun safe in a room, plasma TV on a wall, any elderly looking "give-a-ways" such as walkers, special beds, wheelchairs. Also look for baby items, cribs, toys, diaper bags, etc.

Punks get in, get video camera, leave and report back to drug dealer/gang member with all the information.

Think. Pay attention here.

Drug Dealer/ Gang Now can access buyers for more expensive items, or more dirty deeds.

Often times after a ransack and small theft another break in occurs, and much , much worse. In fact after the insurance company takes care of this one, the house is hit again. Insurance replaces again, and perps have waited for replacements, and hit - yet again

This is not rocket science. What I am about to share, is based on a True Happening :

From the first ransack where the juvenile perps took the camera:

Calendar with Work Schedules and appointments was taken, inside pantry door, all those spare keys.

Wife being pregnant, had a doctor's appoint, she cannot wear her wedding rings (fingers swollen) and Jlry box is on a dresser. Using the key to back door , just walked in while husband at work, wife at doctors, and took jelwlery box and small silver chest with their small wedding gift of silvrware.

Drug/Gang had a buyer for Jewlery and silverware.

This first time, thinking with wife pregnant, and everything going on, one of them forgot to lock door, insurance paid off.

They got hit again, this time just backed up the Rental truck, opened garage, and took all the guns, TVs, video stuff, checkbooks, credit cards not being used, by in a sock drawer. I mean hit them hard. Including the new wedding ring ring already replaced once already.

Insurance Paid , now remember all insurance does is replace to a point, it cannot replace the sentimental value, of say wedding rings, and guns, guns that were his dad's and grandpa's.

Perps watched and waited, they knew that baby was due. They hit again the night this couple made a run to hospital. False alarm, still enough time to get in and grab again.

This is how the game is played sometimes.

Forget racking shotguns, all you are doing is telling someone where YOU are, and now they have a target to shoot at. BGs could care less about 4 rules of safety. What do they care about Identifying a target and NOT shooting at a sound? They don't!

Playing NetNinja and racking a shotgun, in the same room being Macho with the baby, kids, wife, elderly parent - and getting Spray and Pray gunfire in your direction, maybe you get the baby, kids, wife, elderly parent - shot dead.

--

Go to a real courtroom and pay attention. Listen to the aftermath of what goes on. Keep in mind the money , time, emotional drain of being in court day after day all them hours. Folks watching every move to see if rubbing chin means "guilty" ,or "premeditated", or any other non-verbal language the Jury is watching for. Oh the jury does, I did when I served on Juries.

Clean up and repair of getting blood, guts, off of walls, floors, new carpet, repairing back to code electrical wiring, plumbing in a bathroom from a pipe getting hit, ....

Think.

What steps can I now take to make my home less attractive to perps?
What training do I need in local jurisdictions about lethal force?

There is more to responsible firearm ownership than guns.- me.
 
You mean that sound doesn't strike fear into the hearts of men? I thought thats the reason they made them sound like that
 
Hso, I see we have some people who don't understand Castle Doctrine Law.

And once again, I hope somebody doesn't get tried for murder because they interpreted the law incorrectly.

If he/they are in my home ILLEGALY I am not waiting to find out if they are armed or not.
Click to expand...

Let's look at that Louisiana law, shall we?

On June 30,Governor Kathleen Blanco (D) signed HB 1097 by Representative Eric LaFleur (D-38), NRA-backed legislation granting civil immunity to crime victims who lawfully use force up to and including deadly force to protect themselves against a violent attack.

HB 1097 is the companion bill to HB 89 (also by Representative LaFleur), the NRA-supported “Castle Doctrine” bill which created presumptions in law for the use of force against intruders in your home, car or place of business and explicitly states in law that you have no “duty to retreat” from criminal attack if you are in a place where you have a legal right to be.

HB 89 was signed by the Governor on June 2 and both bills take effect on August 15.
Click to expand...

Now, notice the terms "attack" in there? I sure did. If your daughter's teenage boyfriend is in the bathroom getting kinky with her in the shower, then it's not a legally justified shoot. Based on what's been posted in this thread, he'd be dead and leaking everywhere, and somebody would be facing murder charges. Is that what you people want?

I lived in a Florida neighborhood that had a token developmentally disabled young adult. His skull had been crushed in an automobile accident as a toddler, and they pieced him back together as best they could. He never progressed past the 1st grade comprehension. During the day, he would pay visits to folks in the neighborhood just to chat and be sociable. At times he got flustered and lost, but if it was a familiar home to him, it became a safe haven because we would call his mom and let her know her was there and in one piece.

One evening, he was walking home from the Walgreens and got spooked by something. He saw our front door and came in, unannounced. Did I:

1. Immediately snick the safety off my 1911A1 and let him have 8 rounds of Black Talon?

2. Automatically rack the slide on my 870Mk1 and let fly 8 rounds of 00 Buck?

3. Figure out who it was, calm him down, and call his mom?

If you answered #3, you're right. I know some of you stone-cold killers would've wanted to ventilate the poor guy right then and there, but I didn't want to face murder charges myself. Remember, Castle Doctrine states you have no duty to retreat in the face of a threat to your life or limb, not that you can simply shoot somebody because they're in your home. As Hso stated, there's a reasonable man argument in there, based on a perceived threat to the homeowner/occupant. In the absence of a threat, the shooting of the intruder becomes murder. The sooner you folks understand that simple difference, the better a place this forum will be. ;)
 
BigDaddy--

I guess you're not reading anything anyone else is saying, or not comprehending it. If you own a gun, you should at least be willing to think about issues that may affect the rest of your life.

I responded to the original poster based on *his* not your scenario. His question was could he be charged for murder if he confronts two intruders in his house during the day and kills them. No consideration if they are armed or make threatening moves. You clearly imply that you *will* shoot them whether you see a weapon or not or whether they come at you or not, right? That's what you've been saying. If I've got that wrong, let me know now.

Additionally--I pointed out Nevada (that's where the OP lives) law language about self-defense use of deadly force. Unless I'm wrong, NV does not have a castle doctrine law. Given that, the OP could very well face murder or agg. homicide charges if he kills two unarmed teenagers (very likely) in his home. Period.

So, you go ahead and shoot and FOR SURE one or both of the following will happen: you will go to prison for a long time, or you will lose everything you own or ever will own.

If you don't shoot, chances are the intruders will retreat. It happens all the time. Let them go and let the cops do their jobs.

Please note, I *never* said in any of my responses that it would be improper to shoot an armed intruder who is attacking you. So, don't make out like that is my position.

K
 
Thanks for all the replies from you guys. I just wanted to say that I in no way want to come across as having a thirst for blood or have any desire to take a life. The only reason I would fire on someone would be if me or my parents were in danger. I am simply trying to get a grasp on what is legal and what is not. My worst fear is coming down, racking the slide to warn them, they both turn with guns and I get shot. I know this statement is full of hypothetical's but it has been in the back of my mind since yesterday.
 
When people break into my house, I give them the following intake form to fill out:

Name:_________________ Age:___
Address: _______________
Phone no:______________
Next of kin:______________
Lawyer's name and number:_____________

Are you presently carrying a firearm? __Yes __No __Not sure

Reason for breaking into my house (check all that apply):
__To rob/burglarize the house
__To murder inhabitant(s)
__To molest inhabitant(s)
__I thought this was my/my friend's house
__To find prescription drugs
__To find guns
__Just to look around

List all psychiatric disorders you are currently being treated for, or have been treated for in the last five years:______________________________

List all prescription or recreational drugs you are currently under the influence of: _________________________________________________

I, the undesigned, have knowingly and willingly broken into this residence, and hereby certify that I did so with the intent to do harm.

Signature:_______________________________________

That way, there will be no confusion or ambiguity about threat level or legal responsibility. Actually, in this state, it's long been considered appropriate to shoot an intruder, and this has recently been protected by statute. I'd much rather not have to do such a thing, of course. Even if it meant they took my dvd player. But I'd not trade my life, or that of my wife and kids, for the life of a criminal.
 
VicP71,

Kentak cited the correct Nevada statute for you to look at (NRS 200.200). (By the way, do NOT rely on the language in our justifiable homicide statute (NRS 200.120) – this law does not accurately reflect the current legal standard as interpreted by our state Supreme Court.)

Bottom line in Nevada per controlling case of Runyon v. State – a citizen may use deadly force in self-defense when the citizen actually and reasonably believes s/he is in imminent danger of being seriously injured (“great bodily injury”) or killed, and the force used is absolutely necessary under the circumstances for the purpose of avoiding such death/injury.

It does not matter what the law is in any other state, or what people think the law “should” be – Nevada law controls in Nevada. Nevada does not have a “castle doctrine” law per se; case law holds that there will be no duty to retreat if you are not the original aggressor and you reasonably believe your assailant is about to kill you or do you serious bodily harm (State v. Culverson). If deadly force is used by a homeowner against a person committing burglary or home invasion, we do have a civil law presumption at NRS 41.095 that the homeowner is presumed to have a reasonable fear of imminent death or serious injury. Unlike the OK statute cited earlier, this can only be used to avoid a civil suit filed by the criminal or his estate/heirs. It does not automatically give you immunity in a criminal prosecution.

Hope this helps.
 
Kentak

Your right if I confront intruders in my house ( and I am already home, I wouldnt go in if I came home to a break in) i have no idea what there intentions are or will be, so drawing a gun and then hesitating and waiting to see if they have a weapon or what there intentions are and then shooting could lead to leagal troubles as well, so I would shoot and then worry about legalities later than not shoot and give intruder an opportunity to harm me and them have to worry about paying for hospital bills or funeral. You are right one should know state a local laws, but as one poster already stated that the primary goal would be to come out alive. That being when the thread starter asked for advice from THR members i gave some, it does not mean that he has to take it. Its worth exactly what he paid for it. However your first post to this thread made it sound like he just wants to go out on a killing spree, when he was asking for advice you didnt give it you treid knock him, isnt that why people come to THR to get advice, not to burned or flamed by asking an nonest question. Thank you.
 
So, essentially what you're saying, BDLS...

Is that your modus operandi is "Shoot First, Ask Questions Later".

Nice.

Or was it "Shoot 'em All, Let God Sort 'em Out"? :scrutiny:

As a deputy sheriff myself, I wish you the best of luck in your endeavours if you ever choose to follow your advise. You'll need it in front of the grand jury when they question whether you really were in jeopardy of life or limb or simply wanted to shoot somebody.
 
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If an intruder breaks into my house and i am home then yes I will shoot them, they are breaking the law why are you failing to see that. Im glad I do not live in your county, it sounds like your more in it for the criminals.

I would also like to ask where the hell I state that i am a murderer, if you consider defending my home murderous then you my friend do not belong in law enforcement.

I am now done posting on this thread, your not going to change my opinion, and this is getting stupid.

Further more going as low as to make fun of someones screen name shows your maturity level.
 
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Bigdaddy,

You owe it to yourself to go read the outline at
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm . Even if you're through posting I hope you haven't stopped reading the thread.

Skip Gochenour is a PI, and has interviewed more than 600 people who were in jail for killing someone. A certain number of those folks thought they were acting in self defense, but they still wound up in jail. Best stop and think about that for a bit, please. Skip is also Director of the National Tactical Invitational (NTI), and is a student, trainer and practitioner of armed self defense. Believe me, he knows whereof he speaks- some of the biggest names in firearms training in the US attend NTI every year.

Not long ago I listened to Skip lecture for over two hours, following this basic outline with some other stuff- to include lots of color slides- thrown in. It was an experience I wish everyone on this board could share. It would do a lot to help keep good people out of trouble, I believe.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc
 
LOL I like the form :D

I dunno what I would do. Probably depends on the situation. If I come home and find my door open, I would probably check it out w/o calling the cops considering my dumb self probably left it unlocked and possibly open. Of course, such a possibly tense situation would probably require me having my hand on my CCW. Same thing if I heard a bump in the night and wanted to check it out... most bumps are just that... bumps..

If I actually saw someone that was not supposed to be here, I suppose I would have whatever weapon available pointed at center mass. Of course, I doubt I would shoot immediately... hell, I would probably be dumbfounded to think someone else would actually be in my place lol. I do think that, subconsciously, my brain will work that out for me. I've been in a few tense situations and, yes, things do slow down and your brain goes a mile a minute. I'm confident that if I thought for a second I was in danger, i.e. seeing a weapon, seeing a sudden movement toward me or saw that look in the eyes like "Oh crap,I'm busted and I'm cornered", then I would shoot off a full mag and not think twice.

I don't think ANYONE would just cap someone in their house for the sake of doing it... it's that little voice in your head called morals. It's what keeps you the legal gun owner instead of the thuggish bastard robbing people.
 
BigDaddy--

I thank you for your reply. Upon reflection, I realize my first reply to Vic was less than tactful, and for that I am sorry if he felt put upon. However, keep in mind the way he phrased his question. He asked if he got his shotgun and killed the intruders in his living room he could be charged with murder. In my opinion, the most honest answer to that question is, yes, he certainly could. Others were saying, hey, no problem, self-defense, castle doctrine, blah, blah, blah. All without giving any consideration to the law in NV or "minor" factors like whether the intruders are armed or taking threatening actions. He said the intruders were there in the afternoon. Did they break in or walk in thru an unlocked door. All these things just might be important in deciding if someone would be charged by the prosecutor or found guilty by the jury.

Yes, use deadly force if you *must* to protect yourself, but make sure you understand what constitutes "must."

K
 
Sorry to hear about the break in. Its very disturbing to have your home violated.

Are you at PUC? NVC?
 
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