My idea: Military Pistol

[Nightcrawler]

Here's my list of specifications that I'd set forward if I were a military that needed to buy a sidearm.



-All controls must be ambidextrious and as simple to use as possible. The slide must lock back after the last shot, and the operator should be able to drop the magazine out with his firing hand. The magazines should drop free when released.

-The controls, including the trigger guard and the grip, must be oversized for use with heavy Arctic/winter gloves, yet still be comfortable to use when not wearing them. This is very important.

-The sights must be easy to see, quick to align, and protected by steel wings. Fixed sights are preferred.

-The weapon should feature a barrel of around 5" in length (no less than 4.5", no more than 6"), with a threaded end to facilitate muzzle attachments. The threaded end must be protected by a steel cap.

-The weapon should have a full length, steel guide rod, and a chrome lined barrel. Additionally, if it's polymer-framed, the slide-to-frame rails must be lined with steel.

-The weapon must have an ambidextrious manual safety, regardless of method of operation. The preferred type of safety is a thumb lever that the operator pushes up for "safe" and down for "fire".

-The weapon should have the same trigger pull for every shot. Double action to single action transition needlessly complicates training.

-The pistol must have a recessed lanyard loop in the grip, placed such that the operator won't hit it with his hand (causing pain) when he inserts a magazine quickly.

-The pistol's magazines must be made of steel or ultra-high-strength polymer, and must be designed for utterly reliable feeding, even when dirty. All polymer mags must be steel lined, and all baseplates must be made of steel, to avoid cracking when empty mags are dropped onto pavement.

-The weapon must be breach locked, roller locked, or something similar. No straight-blowback designs, as they are impractical for full powered cartridges.

-The pistol must be as reliable as possible. It must function when neglected, when dirty, when wet, when muddy, and when coated with talcum-powder-like dust, as is prone to happen on tank trails. It must also be easy to field strip without tools, and must break down into as few pieces as possible.

-The pistol must be excessively strong for whatever cartridge it fires, being able to handle a service lifetime of +P or +P+ loads.


That's all I can think of for now. Unfortunately, no current pistol meets these specs. I left out caliber, as that would depend on a number of factors. Ideally, it'd be either .45 +P or 10mm.

 

[BevrFevr]

I can go one better

My requirement would be that a military pistol should be replaced with with ammo for a rifle or food.

But If you had to have one then i'd pick a stainless 7-8 shot .357 revolver with a 4 or 6 inch barrel.

This meets or beats all of your criterea.

I love my autos but...

Pistols are not much of a combat weapon and my understanding is they are seldom used as such(compared to AK47's and M16's). So why even go with an auto. Most can't compete with quality revolvers by virutally any measure except capacity. And I don't feel the slightest bit undergunned with my wheel guns. If anything it's the opposite.

I can't think of a more reliable rugged easy to use weapon that posseses more than enough power to do the job. Nothing inspires confidence more than one of these babies.

-bevr

 

[Nightcrawler]

Having spent some time as a grunt, I know about the limited utility of battlefield handguns.

Nevertheless, I'm a believer in our troops getting the absolute best equipment possible, whether that equipment be a tent, a boot, a compass, or a handgun.

The revolver (at least, my S&W N-frame) fails miserably at the criteria of use with HEAVY WINTER gloves. I can't even get my finger in the trigger guard with my thick, warm thinsulate gloves on. And when it's -14* out like it was last night, you need gloves that thick.

Other than that, there's no reason a revolver can't be used, in my opinion, though it doesn't meet a number of other criteria, like the chrome lined barrel and ambidextrious controls. And this is coming from a lefty who likes revolvers; I'd like them MORE if I didn't have to switch hands to reload.

 

[Handy]

Your criteria make sense, except for the guiderod. They don't seem to be necessary, and add weight and extra parts.

I would add that the gun should be as light as possible, but a stamped/welded steel frame may be the best long term option.

A fixed barrel address two concerns: it provides a "steel guiderod" (the barrel itself) and simplifies the muzzle attachment situation that you have threads for. Suggest a sturdier method than threads and getting rid of the cap.

While a modified DAO might be a good way to go, DA/SA works well too. Either way, there should only be one control lever (on each side) that releases the slide, decocks (and possibly recocks). See the Walther P5 or HK P9S, P7. This simplifies the glove problem, too.

All pins or screws or whatever should be interchangeable and only insert in one direction. Preferably, parts replacement can be done with a minimum number of total components removed or disassembled.

Armorers should be provided with clear wear criteria on all dynamic parts and be able to check them with simple field gauges.

Tennifer.

Night goggle compatible tritium sights.


You know, the Browning BDM has all of this stuff except the muzzle threads.

 

[BevrFevr]

well you got me

I agree that our troops should have the best available. And I would never send a soldier anyplace I could send a bomb instead.

I did mention stainless to offset the chrome lining although they are not the same.

That's funny my Smiths trigger guard is larger than any of my "combat" pistols.

Revolvers generally can't be supressed so that could be a weakness.

With revolvers you may have the benefit of using more than one caliber of ammo. Autos often require barrel and spring swaps.

Now for not being ambi I think I've got ya on that one! Think Schofield! Rugged as hell, reload with either hand! They were a fav of soldiers on horseback. If you can reload up there under fire at a full charge I'd bet you could reload anywhere.

On the flip side I bet it won't be long before someone mentions Glunks.

-bevr

 

[Destructo6]

Sounds, more or less, like a HK USP.

 

[George Hill]

Sounds exactly like an HK USP. However the requirement that the gun must be DAO because troops are too stupid to learn how to fire the M9 is more or less a retarded requirement.
I think the M9 is doing just fine for most troops and the M- whatever the SIG is, is a good alternate.

Actually, I think the XD would make a great service arm.

 

[Nightcrawler]

I'd prefer a single action only or striker-fired (preferably the XD's style, it's got a much better trigger than the Glock) weapon for this use. I greatly dislike double action only autos, personally, and DAO was certainly NOT one of my requirements. I'd very much prefer NOT to have it, actually.

 

[Handy]

Give a single action to the military and we will be quickly back to carrying handguns condition 3.

 

[care-less]

Ditto the USP. Revolvers??? try to clear a jam! The auto just takes more abuse, especially crawling around on your belly. US Military discovered that b4 and during WW1

 

[Nightcrawler]

Revolvers??? try to clear a jam! The auto just takes more abuse, especially crawling around on your belly. US Military discovered that b4 and during WW1

Actually, the US military continued to issue revolvers right up until the 1980s.

What do you mean, "jam"? Failure to feed? Double feed? Failure to eject? Broken guide rod?

You'd have to get an awful lot of crap in the inner workings of a revolver to cause it to bind up so bad that just shaking the stuff out won't free it up. A similar amount of crud will do the same thing to an autoloader.

I've never shot a USP .45. If you can't easily use it with heavy gloves on, it FAILS my criteria. HEAVY GLOVES are for when its below zero outside, not for that series of rainy days our Tennessee friends call winter.

The USP does have an overlarge trigger loop, and that's a start. I'd have to try one with my gloves to be sure, though.

 

[care-less]

Nightcrawler What happens when your glove blocks the return of the trigger ona revolver? Have you never started to pull the trigger then changed your mind and jammed up the revolver? Out of time? Bent a base pin? Had a crane spring? The whole world doesn't use autos for nothing. US military did issue some revolvers til the 80's, helicopter pilots, rear echelon security, etc. Nowhere where it counted. You have a big job in front of you trying to convince the world to accept your view. Good luck though!

 

[Nightcrawler]

The thing is, though, outside of the MPs and maybe special forces, handguns are used so rarely in the military that the troops could be issued Single Action Armies and the end result would be the same.

So revolver parts can break. Auto parts can break too, and not stuff that's field-fixable.

 

[Handy]

I, for one, take issue with the idea that a helicopter pilot doesn't need a good pistol. In action, many helo pilots carry rifles or subguns as well. I'm sure Scott O'Grady took great comfort from his M9. A pistol is all a jet pilot has room for.

Pistols may not get shot in every war, but for many watch posts it is the first line of defense as the M9 is carried Cond. 2, while the rifle might be left with the chamber empty. That's how the Marines in the Gulf did it.

If you don't want to issue a decent handgun, just hand out clubs to make it obvious that the receiver is cannon fodder.

 

[care-less]

Don't remember anyone saying helicopter pilots don't need a pistol, just that the army issues them revolvers because they don't want empty brass stuck under some controls. Personally as long as chopper is flying, I don't see any reason for pilot to be shooting a pistol. Once down, a good auto would be preferred by most; plus a rifle. But the military doesn't seem to see it that way.

 

[Destructo6]

They issue crap to pilots because they don't expect them to use their pistols. My bro, who flies fighters for the Navy, was issued a .38 Special revolver on his first round of Iraq no-fly zone patrols in 1994/5. Recently, they were issued new SIG P228s.

I wish they were issued something like the HK MP7, but I'm not sure if the bulk would be prohibitive.

 

[BevrFevr]

I'm the butthead that...

Brought up revolvers in the first place. Sorry Nightcrawler. I'm glad at least you have an open mind.

I would like to take another look at some of the points made here if I could.

Some of us can agree that handguns are rarely used in combat. If we take that as a given and move to another point about gloves.

I'm wondering why if it is so darned cold out that you have to wear extra large gloves that you are messing with a handgun in the first place unless you are a cop and it is all you have. What I'm thinking is that If you are wearing lots of winter gear the person you are shooting at probably is too. If they are wearing alot of military winter gear then I would want something with more penetration than any 9mm or .45.

Hell I hear discussions that even 5.56 is a little under powered coming out of the m4.

So I'm thinking if it has to be a handgun why not a caliber of substance like .357 or .44. Of course I may be in the minority when I say that revolvers are probably the most reliable repeating weapons ever invented because they don't have to eject and feed a new round for every shot.

I don't know where these guys come from that have all the problems with em. Makes me wonder about their ability to use forks and knives instead of spoons.

-bevr