My new 1911A1 (norinco)

[HisDivineShadow]

This is my first 1911 and so far so good.
I went with a Norinco for several reasons, to begin with I've never really heard any bad things about them from owners, good quality steel and one of the most in-spec designs you can get besides a Colt. Also the price is unbeatable, important here in yurop where guns usually are twice as expensive. Still I had set my expectations low. I expected a rough ugly finish that I'd get rid of as soon as possible and an action so rough it could hardly be used. We'll see how it pans out shall we?

First the box, things aren't starting that well. A horrible box in paper and styrofoam.



But out comes this, albeit then it was covered in this disgusting factory grease and I had to strip it clean it for an hour before I got most of the gunk off. Then it resembled something like this. Also included is two magazines and a cleaning brush.



I am most pleased with this purchase, the finish looks much better than I anticipated. The ejection port is as I expected flared and lowered so it's not truly USGI. But I prefer the flared/lowered version.

One really positive aspect was the lack of displeasing "engrish" on the slide like on older norincos, this is much better, it is also very faint so it's easily removable, all manufacturers should be so considerate incase someone wants a blank slide.



The third thing I looked for was rattling, the slide hardly moved at all, no more than on my Baby Eagle pistol, it was very quite when I rattled it. Only thing that rattles is the grip safety, I might replace it someday with a fitted grip safety for that reason.

The second thing I noticed here was that the sights, while of the low and nearly nonexistent USGI type where of a tri-dot model, I had always thought they would be plain black. Still I think a new pair of sights is in order, Trijicon maybe.



I took it to the range last friday and shot a box of Magtech FMC 230gr through it, it fed without any complications. I didn't think the trigger was that heavy, maybe just a little bit, but it felt very crisp, just squeeze and suddenly it goes KABOOM! The recoil of a .45 wasn't as bad as I thought, I quite liked it, neither did the pistol give me hammerbite so I won't need a beavertail either. Still I can feel it's a little rough in places, but more firing should fix most of this, not sure if I'll bother with the trigger though.

What I will change however are those horrible plastic grips, I am getting a pair of GI .45 grips from springfield, or possibly a checkered cocobolo pair, not sure yet. The sights will also be replaced sometime in the future and I will pakerize the gun even though the blueing was above expectation. It collects dirt like crazy, you can see every flake of dust and fingerprint on it. A matte finish will fix this OCD inducing situation.

The only thing I feel was a bit badly managed where the serrations, they don't look finished at all and one has gotten dinged up. I'll try and file down the burr on the serration sometime and before it's parkerized I will glass bead blast the whole gun so the serrations should be fixed automatically then.



So this is what a Norinco 1911A1 made more recently looks like, it's quite the improvedment from the norincos you americans have access to which are all from the 90's. And i think all in all that this was a great buy, very fun to shoot and even with those ugly grips I think its gorgeous. Just too bad ammo is twice as expensive as 9mm. Reloading is a must for me now. Here are some random pics that where left over.

 

[Silvanus]

Wow, nice looking pistol. Except for the plastic grips, you're right they should definitely be replaced Very nice photography, too.

At what range did you shoot the pistol, how's the accuracy?


PS: I also like the S&B 9mm ammo

 

[crankshop1000]

Price???

 

[HisDivineShadow]

I shot at about 15 yards. Given my own inadequacies in shooting it's hard to say how accurate it is. I need to try again properly, with support and all.

Good eye if you recognized the 9mm as S&B, thats my other gun, a Baby Eagle.

 

[HisDivineShadow]

crankshop1000, 398 euros new. Keep in mind guns are more expensive here. Thats 535 USD. In contrast a Springfield GI .45 would be 1010 dollars (750 euros), thats the cheapest 1911 I've found thats not a norinco. RIA isn't anywhere to be found.

 

[Ford]

Made in China Hope there isnt a recall on it.

Nice pics. I agree with the above poster though I would ditch the plastic grips.

 

[HisDivineShadow]

I'm going to get double diamond walnut grips. I also plan to parkerize it myself and then treat it with cosmoline for the old style greenish tint like old 1911's have. Trijicon combat sights are also planned as they wouldn't change the original 1911 lines too much.

 

[General Geoff]

In contrast a Springfield GI .45 would be 1010 dollars (750 euros), thats the cheapest 1911 I've found thats not a norinco.

Holy crap.

Nice looking pistol, though.

 

[poppy]

Very interesting post. My Nork (S/N 5281XX) is slightly different than yours. The slide on mine (even though labled as blued) is not as shiny as yours.

My thumb safety has a very short lug where yours is full length. My ejection port is GI.

Everything else appears to be the same. No slide rattle, but grip safety rattle. Very rough serrations machining with a couple of nicks. Same box and same sights.

It's too bad that prices are so high over there, but at least you can get new Norks. Used ones are now going for over $400 where I live and prices keep going up. Our northern brothers in Canada seem to get the best deals.

BTW, your English is better than many on this site.

 

[Silvanus]

Good eye if you recognized the 9mm as S&B, thats my other gun, a Baby Eagle.

Well the red sealing gave it away...Do you have some more pictures of your other pistol(s) perhaps?

 

[AndyC]

Here's some info on the Norinco 1911 which you may find interesting:

There is nothing wrong with Norinco 1911's you can be sure of that. Here is a copy of a post from a friend of mine who is an engineer in Ottawa that will give you some idea of the quality of the steel in Norincos.

"Allright, well let me first start by explaining a few things about steel in general, including Ordnance grades of steel. Hardness does not necessarily equate to brittleness, that is a function of heat treating and alloy. Even softer steels can crack and be brittle, it's a matter of how the internal stresses are relieved, or not, by annealing and hardening processes, as well as upon carbon on other constituent elements found in the steel.

Also should mention, I'm comparing apples to apples, so only the CroMo Colt is being compared to the CroMo Norinco here. The stainless guns have their own quirks (like spalling problems, corrosion resistance benefits, etc.)

In layman's terms, the more important characteristics to crafting firearms is the toughness of the steel and modulous of elasticity of the steel. You want steel that is ductile enough to flex at the microscopic level and return to its original shape but hard enough to have good wear resistance and, in higher end guns, be able to take and keep the desired finish without dinging up too easily.

Now if we want to talk about relative hardness of steels, Norincos are made from a different steel formulation than Colts are. Comparing Rockwell hardnesses really won't tell you much, but as a general observation, on average the Norincos are at least 30% harder on the surface than most other 1911's, including the Colt. This does not mean they are more brittle - it means that the alloy used to Make the Norincos (5100 tool steel*) results in a much harder surface when heat treated than does the Colt alloy (4140 Ordnance grade tool steel*).

*Although the exact alloy formulations are "industrial secrets", destructive testing done in the USA by the DCM (circa 1997) determined that Colt uses 4140 and the Chinese formulation used in 1911's and M14S receivers is an exact match to AISI 5100 series steel.

Perhaps this is the time to mention something else about Colts. Colt does not use the same alloy today it used in WW2 and earlier. In WW1, the guns were not even given what we think of today as "heat treating". Those older guns were only spot-treated at high stress areas and today have a rather high incidence of slide cracking using full factory loads due to a number of factors, including metal fatigue, crack propagation, creep, etc. coupled with the fact that vast portions of the slide and frame have no treatment at all. That being said, the steel is very ductile and in the event of failure, it should just bend and crack - not fracture like a grenade. A good thing, but at the same time - these babies should be collected and admired more than turned into a range marathon pistol!

I could get further into heat treating, including annealing, case hardening, gas carburizing, cyanide dips, etc. and the resulting pearlitic and/or martensitic grain structures, but frankly, unless you work in a foundry or have a mechanical engineering degree and understanding of materials science, it would be way too far over everyone's head so I'll try to keep this explanation understandable for the average fellow

Now for a short note on Chinese steel "quality". The Chinese are as advanced as we are in Steel production. Is Chicom steel of poorer quality on average on a gross domestic production basis? Yes, absolutely. This is because the majority of China's manufacturing is devoted to the Wal-Marts of the world at a very low price point, so cheaper steels are generally produced and used for those products. The steel used in their weapons, however, is every bit as up to snuff as North American steel is.

So now we get into the 5100 alloy Norinco 1911 in particular. 5100 is an EXCELLENT receiver material. It hardens very well on the surface but maintains an adequately ductile core. This gives great wear resistance and great resistance to plastic deformation (deformation that causes the parts to permanently deform or warp). The one achilles heel to 5100 series alloys is that they are notoriously hard to machine. Norinco, I suspect, machines their parts with carbide cutters prior to heat treating. On a finished gun the only way you're going to cut it with HSS mill bits is if you spot-anneal the steel with a torch first. Most smiths have to buy carbide mill bits to work the steel, and even then there's a very high tool wear rate. This is probably why so few smiths will do Novak cuts to a Norinco slide - they probably only have HSS tooling!

5100 alloy is, most probably, the alloy most manufacturers WOULD chose to build receivers if tool bits were cheap and labor costs were low. It really does have better end-product properties than 4140 steel does, and it's also easier to smelt at the steel mill and forges beautifully. Virtually all Cro-Mo guns made in the west that aren't cast, however, are made of 4140 or other 4100 series alloys. 4140 is an entirely adequate steel for use in guns, it also wears tools at a much slower rate and can still be machined easily after hardening. The Chinese are fortunate in that they make many of the tool steel bits on the market (cheap supply) and lobor costs are very low. This makes 5100 steel actually cheaper for them to use b/c of the lower costs associated with making the steel stock.

All this to say, you can complain about the design, fit, finish, and economics of a Norinco 1911. But frankly, trashing the steel is a bigotted and unfounded arguement based on ignorance and reliance on the Go-USA writings of most internet experts "

I hope this gives you a better perspective of the Norinco 1911.

Take Care

1911Forum.com

As for me, I bought mine back around 1991 because I couldn't afford a Colt at the time and I'd read an article where Bill Wilson praised the Nork, saying that the quality of the steel was better than Colt's.

Before I took possession, I had some work done to it - better sights, new trigger and trigger-job, bigger safety-catch, some mag-well work, new grips and a bluing job. Oustanding pistol - I competed with it in IPSC matches and performed executive protection work with it.

I'd (almost) give my left one for another

 

[brentn]

The one that he has is the latest production model, there are defenitly going to be differences between his and the ones that you americans have, which are 15+ years or older.
The older ones, IMO, are nicer. The one I saw had a very nice barrel hood and an excellent finish with good machining all around. This one has poor machining marks on the slide serrations, but the finish is pretty damn good. The older ones also came with better grips.

That finish is much nicer than mine, and your slide is also rounded quite nicely around the muzzle, where mine has some pretty bad machining marks near the muzzle, near the front sight.

I'd defenitly still buy a 5" model though, they are 349$ cndn brand new.

 

[TATANKA]

Simply . . .

Outstanding!!!

 

[HisDivineShadow]

Thanks for all the compliments guys! And to poppy, I watched alot of english TV as a kid, still remember watching Dallas with my parents

Well the red sealing gave it away...Do you have some more pictures of your other pistol(s) perhaps?

Sure why not? I only got two, so far. Next handgun will likely be a 686. But first some 1887 and 1897 winchester shotgun clones.

 

[AndyC]

Slightly off-topic, but seeing that you'd be the expert - how do the Finns pronounce Sako? Say-ko or Sah-ko or something else?

 

[HisDivineShadow]

The latter sounds about right I think.

 

[AndyC]

Thanks

 

[ulflyer]

Norks

I'm a Nork fan with 2 shooters and 2 NIB. The only thing I've done to the shooters is new sights and a good going over by the reknown 1911Tuner who gave them a tweaking where and if they needed it. Fortunately I live near Tuner and he has been generous with his time and advice. I love my Colts just cause they are Colts but my Norks are more accurate comparing both brands without any accuratizing done. Don't flame me diehard Colt fans, but thats been my experience with a limited number of guns. Beyond that I can't attest to durability as I don't put enough rounds thru any one of them to make that determination.

And I like the plastic grips cause they are impervious to any chemical cleaner I've used and I use brake cleaner a lot as well as Eds Red which has acetone in it. So if any of you have some Nork plastics you want to dump, send them to me.

 

[40SW]

Very interesting thread. Can you give us more insight as a Finn. I know your country has a very rich tradition in shooting sports and hunting. What would a civilian have access to in Finland? What about long guns, can you for example purchase a Ruger 10/22 or a Winchester 700? Tell us more about firearms culture and laws in your nation. I have always enjoyed your history.

 

[RobZ71LM7]

Now for a short note on Chinese steel "quality". The Chinese are as advanced as we are in Steel production. Is Chicom steel of poorer quality on average on a gross domestic production basis? Yes, absolutely. This is because the majority of China's manufacturing is devoted to the Wal-Marts of the world at a very low price point, so cheaper steels are generally produced and used for those products. The steel used in their weapons, however, is every bit as up to snuff as North American steel is.

Bull. I'd love to tell you of the number of supposedly ASME spec boiler tubes produced in Chinese mills that have turned out to be either counterfeit or inferior to American made tube. And let's not get into fasteners that are supposedly grade 8. China is getting a lot better, but I wouldn't agree with the above poster.

That being said I have no problem with Norinco 1911's.

 

[Richard]

"...the serrations, they don't look finished at all..." That is also the only real complaint I have. My Norincos have both been upgraded (see below). Regards, Richard

 

[schmeky]

RobZ71LM7,

If you are stating the steel used in Norinco's is inferior to US steel used in firearms, you'll find this not the case. This has been discussed on this and other forums numerous times.

The steel used in the Norinco 1911 is some of the very best available.

 

[Nameless_Hobo]

Nothing wrong with it, I suppose, but I'd rather have a US made 1911, it would just feel wrong to have one made in China. I'm a gun-racist, I suppose.

 

[HisDivineShadow]

Very interesting thread. Can you give us more insight as a Finn. I know your country has a very rich tradition in shooting sports and hunting. What would a civilian have access to in Finland? What about long guns, can you for example purchase a Ruger 10/22 or a Winchester 700? Tell us more about firearms culture and laws in your nation. I have always enjoyed your history.

Well it's mostly hunting that stands for the majority of firearms, atleast 50% of finnish households ought to have one firearm of some kind. Shooting is quite big however, and we also have the reservist organisations.

Since we have general conscription everyone who has completed their tour of duty can join a voluntary reservist organisation. I think of it as a shooting club with a more military bent. I am a member of a reservist organisation and we got this shooting sport called "SRA" which is an abbreviation for means something like "applied reservist shooting".

I suppose it might be somewhat reminiscient of IDPA but I am not sure as I only go on hearsay about IDPA here. You can use handguns, shotguns and assault rifles (semi) in this and it consists of working through an arrange area and shooting at targets and then you get points. It's all done with your own guns and it's supported by the government as a cheap way of keeping potential soliders skills sharp.

Anyway to get a gun you need a purchase license and a reason, valid reasons range from hobby to collecting, there are boxes to tick essentially. Generally, depending on where you are the police will have no problems with giving you a license for any .22 firearm if you aren't in a shooting club, the more rural areas have it easier, where I am ofcourse. Still if you want more than one it's a good idea to join a club, this will ease things considerably. If you join a club then it's not that hard to get approved for instance, 9mm semiautos or any common firearm. The more guns and experience you get, the more easily further licenses will be approved.

You have to store firearms in a safe or in parts (like slide and frame at different locations, and in hard to find storage area) but if you have 5 firearms and get a sixth then you will require an approved gun safe.

You can really get all kinds of firearms here without any real problem as long as you have joined a club, the only people who have problems are the first time owners who'd like a .454 Casull revolver as their first gun, but thats not very common. Thats revolvers, pistols, rifles, shotguns, "assault weapons". There are no laws or restrictions on silencers or magasine capacity. But only hunters can really get hollowpoint ammo without a special license so it's hardball for the rest of us.

There is also a minimum 16" barrel lenght on rifles and shotguns as well as a total lenght requirement which makes foldable stocks a difficult affair, so everyone uses fixed stocks on their AK clones for instance. And pocket guns, guns smaller than a certain size, like some snubby revolvers are very hard to get as well. People who have gotten approved as official collectors can get pocket guns and other things normal people have problems with, they can also get full-auto weapons.

I guess thats about it. Long story short is we can get pretty much everything you can america with a bit of paperwork, silencers are even easier than getting them in america.

 

[Koblenz]

Glad to know there is at least one European country that allows its citizens to own firearms.

I lived in Germany for awhile and it appeared that some people could own guns. I saw gun shops in Frankfurt and Mainz, and there was a shooting range near Frankfurt. However I think it must be very difficult to get a firearms license there.