Norinco 1911A1

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Not any more, perhaps, but that's because 1. You can't import any more, so there's a limited supply and 2. word has gotten around (since the early 90's, actually) as to how good they really are, which adds demand to point 1 - which drives up the price.

Are they worth it? To me, yes - to you, perhaps not; it's all relative ;)
 
Yea the states prices are defenitly higher becuase of the ban, and like andy said the demand is high because people have realized how good they really are.
 
If you can find one for $250, snap it up, but those are more myth than truth I think. They sell for $400-500 which puts them smack dab in the "I will never pay that much for one" range. I have no doubt they are decent guns but for the money, I think they are a fool purchase.

Norincos are the kind of pistol that you pay top dollar for but then when you go to sell it, nobody wants it and you end up taking a huge loss. No thank you.

I see contradictory statements here.

If they're selling for 400-500, then how are you taking a loss if the demand for them is such that the prices are going up? But hey, whatever floats your boat. More Norincos for me.
 
Everyone has an opinion and I respect that. I think the perceived negative(s) about a Norinco is "made in China".

They can be found for around $350.00, still a bargain in the 1911 arena when pistols for the same money or more are cast instead of forged.
 
I would pay $350 for a nice one because that is about the same price as the RIA and I think the Norinco is a better gun. The RIA is not bad though.

"I see contradictory statements here.

If they're selling for 400-500, then how are you taking a loss if the demand for them is such that the prices are going up? But hey, whatever floats your boat. More Norincos for me."

It does seem contradictory, that is what pisses me off so much. There just seem to be certain guns that are hard to find and when you do, they are being sold at the high end of the scale. When you go to sell them, they always sell for the low end. It is just a gun that you can get burned on more than others.
 
Sorry KGRIGGS8...but they ARE that good...which is the primary reason they are hard to find. I haven't seen one on the market for years, and I attend a lot of gun shows. I've owned Kimbers, SAs, Colts, and a custom shop EAA...most of which were picky on ammo, or fell short on accuracy or reliability. All are fine 230-gr hardball guns, but I like to shoot lighter SWC ammo. My Norincos beat 'em all...and for some reason, are unusually accurate out of the box. I value performance better than finish, which is where my Norincos fall short.:D
 
TooTaxed,
Are you saying that they are actually better then the Kimbers, SAs, Colts and custom guns? I have never owned one so I was not bashing the quality, just the value. If they are are better than Colts and Kimbers, I will have to give them a second look.
 
"Better" is a matter of definition, but the steel of the Nork's is some of the strongest you'll ever find. They're not as finely fitted/tuned/finished as Colt, SA, etc - but they are one heck of a fine base gun from which to work ;)

Something I found on the 1911forum.com site:

There is nothing wrong with Norinco 1911's you can be sure of that. Here is a copy of a post from a friend of mine who is an engineer in Ottawa that will give you some idea of the quality of the steel in Norincos.

"Allright, well let me first start by explaining a few things about steel in general, including Ordnance grades of steel. Hardness does not necessarily equate to brittleness, that is a function of heat treating and alloy. Even softer steels can crack and be brittle, it's a matter of how the internal stresses are relieved, or not, by annealing and hardening processes, as well as upon carbon on other constituent elements found in the steel.

Also should mention, I'm comparing apples to apples, so only the CroMo Colt is being compared to the CroMo Norinco here. The stainless guns have their own quirks (like spalling problems, corrosion resistance benefits, etc.)

In layman's terms, the more important characteristics to crafting firearms is the toughness of the steel and modulous of elasticity of the steel. You want steel that is ductile enough to flex at the microscopic level and return to its original shape but hard enough to have good wear resistance and, in higher end guns, be able to take and keep the desired finish without dinging up too easily.

Now if we want to talk about relative hardness of steels, Norincos are made from a different steel formulation than Colts are. Comparing Rockwell hardnesses really won't tell you much, but as a general observation, on average the Norincos are at least 30% harder on the surface than most other 1911's, including the Colt. This does not mean they are more brittle - it means that the alloy used to Make the Norincos (5100 tool steel*) results in a much harder surface when heat treated than does the Colt alloy (4140 Ordnance grade tool steel*).

*Although the exact alloy formulations are "industrial secrets", destructive testing done in the USA by the DCM (circa 1997) determined that Colt uses 4140 and the Chinese formulation used in 1911's and M14S receivers is an exact match to AISI 5100 series steel.

Perhaps this is the time to mention something else about Colts. Colt does not use the same alloy today it used in WW2 and earlier. In WW1, the guns were not even given what we think of today as "heat treating". Those older guns were only spot-treated at high stress areas and today have a rather high incidence of slide cracking using full factory loads due to a number of factors, including metal fatigue, crack propagation, creep, etc. coupled with the fact that vast portions of the slide and frame have no treatment at all. That being said, the steel is very ductile and in the event of failure, it should just bend and crack - not fracture like a grenade. A good thing, but at the same time - these babies should be collected and admired more than turned into a range marathon pistol!

I could get further into heat treating, including annealing, case hardening, gas carburizing, cyanide dips, etc. and the resulting pearlitic and/or martensitic grain structures, but frankly, unless you work in a foundry or have a mechanical engineering degree and understanding of materials science, it would be way too far over everyone's head so I'll try to keep this explanation understandable for the average fellow

Now for a short note on Chinese steel "quality". The Chinese are as advanced as we are in Steel production. Is Chicom steel of poorer quality on average on a gross domestic production basis? Yes, absolutely. This is because the majority of China's manufacturing is devoted to the Wal-Marts of the world at a very low price point, so cheaper steels are generally produced and used for those products. The steel used in their weapons, however, is every bit as up to snuff as North American steel is.

So now we get into the 5100 alloy Norinco 1911 in particular. 5100 is an EXCELLENT receiver material. It hardens very well on the surface but maintains an adequately ductile core. This gives great wear resistance and great resistance to plastic deformation (deformation that causes the parts to permanently deform or warp). The one achilles heel to 5100 series alloys is that they are notoriously hard to machine. Norinco, I suspect, machines their parts with carbide cutters prior to heat treating. On a finished gun the only way you're going to cut it with HSS mill bits is if you spot-anneal the steel with a torch first. Most smiths have to buy carbide mill bits to work the steel, and even then there's a very high tool wear rate. This is probably why so few smiths will do Novak cuts to a Norinco slide - they probably only have HSS tooling!

5100 alloy is, most probably, the alloy most manufacturers WOULD chose to build receivers if tool bits were cheap and labor costs were low. It really does have better end-product properties than 4140 steel does, and it's also easier to smelt at the steel mill and forges beautifully. Virtually all Cro-Mo guns made in the west that aren't cast, however, are made of 4140 or other 4100 series alloys. 4140 is an entirely adequate steel for use in guns, it also wears tools at a much slower rate and can still be machined easily after hardening. The Chinese are fortunate in that they make many of the tool steel bits on the market (cheap supply) and lobor costs are very low. This makes 5100 steel actually cheaper for them to use b/c of the lower costs associated with making the steel stock.

All this to say, you can complain about the design, fit, finish, and economics of a Norinco 1911. But frankly, trashing the steel is a bigotted and unfounded arguement based on ignorance and reliance on the Go-USA writings of most internet experts "

I hope this gives you a better perspective of the Norinco 1911.

Take Care
 
kgriggs,

I to have Colts, a super fine Kimber, and my Norinco. The Kimber is an incredibly well finished tack driver that has no peer in it's price range (IMHO). Love my Colts too, but the Norinco shoots very well and with extreme reliability.

I knew about the steel quality of the Norc before I bought it. It's a gun you can shoot a lot the rest of your life and pass it on. Norc's, to me, have a "heft" that is different from other 1911's, I think it's in the steel. They really are great guns in their price range ($350-$450).
 
Norinco, good choice. You can't beat the price. I bought mine for $265, and could have sold a dozen of them before I left the gun show. Shoots great and never misses a beat. Not the fit and finish of my Para-Ordnance, but the price is right. I would not hesitate to buy a couple more if they came my way.
 
Bought a used one last year in a gunshop for $ 180. Very close to new condition and more reliable than my new Kimber. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles, but it hasn't needed repair either. I'd scoff up another if I could find another at a reasonable price.........Essex
 
My preference for my Norinco over the other 1911A1s I've owned is based on shooting satisfaction. Most of the other guns are less reliable with specific variations of ammunition...all are just fine with 230-gr RN hardball...but go to lighter SWC bullets and occasional misfires happen. Also, accuracy varies fairly widely. I suppose you can tune any individual pistol to shoot a specific load reliably...alter feed ramps, change springs...but accuracy is more difficult to improve unless you use the services of a gunsmith.

But why go to the trouble? My Norinco has digested any load I've fed through it reliably, and accuracy out of the box is above normal compared to my other guns. My Norinco was bought second hand and the previous owner had used it for his first competitive target gun...and the only change he had made to it was to install a Clark trigger (the original trigger also came with the gun). The first time I shot it was to find out what I wanted a gunsmith to do to improve it...and I've found no need to change a thing! It shoots hardball just fine, but my favored target load is a 200-gr lead SWC loaded just hot enough to work the slide reliably. The finish is OK...nowheres as fine as my Kimber, but who cares? Finish is for pretty, but it doesn't help the groups get tighter.

If I decide to get into more professional competition I've a second Norinco NIB on which I'll have a gunsmith fit a target front and adjustable rear sight...but I'm not into that yet. That's by the recommendation of a very prominent gunsmith (now deceased) who specialized on making match pistols. He's the one who initially steered me onto the Norincos...otherwise I probably would have never bought one of those cheap Chinese imports!
 
I like my Norinco and have done about $50 in upgrades to it. I stopped there and bought a used pre series II Kimber Custom Target. Everything about the Kimber is nicer and I paid $500 for it.

Norinco's were great back when Colts were $500 and you had to do $300 in upgrades to get them where you wanted. Now there are so many good choices from Kimber, Springfield, STI (check out the Spartan), S&W, and Sig that I don't see why you would want to go that route unless you want a truly custom pistol when you are done.
 
I have 3 and one on the way. 2 are shooters and 2 are NIB. Only thing I've done to shooters is bigger sights for my old eyes. They outshoot my several Colts. The closest for accuracty, perhaps a tad better, is a Springer Loaded thats been tweaked a lot. I love the Norks as they can be tossed about with no fear of scratching or marring the finish. A solid, dependable, reliable gun. Love em! No idea why I have four; its just become a fetish I guess. Sorta like the Mak's I own.......:)
 
Yo flyer,

Yeah, well...I should relieve you of one o' dose, bud. :evil:
 
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I have two. One is box stock with about 20% of the finish left and a little polishing on the sear, disconector and hammer.

The other looks just about like the one Mr. Camp put up. Except mine has a shade-tree dura coat finish in putrid green, which is flaking off. However, I do carry this gun every day in a Rafter-s IWB. Someday, I will get around to getting it blued or black Td.

Both gun are more accurate than I am(maybe not saying much) and 100% reliable. Given the all tool steel parts in the gun, they represent a great value. The only thing the gun really has to have out of the box is larger sights for old folks like me. Like Mr. Camp, I put King's Hardball sights on my gun and had a smith do a trigger job. It has held steady at 3.5# for over 10,000 rounds. When I wear the gun out, I will fix up the box stock gun that needs finish.

When the second one wears out, I have a Les Baer Super-Tac for a backup. They will be a good deal until they cost more than a springfield Mil-spec AND new tool steel fire control parts that are almost manditory on them if you planning on shooting a lot.
 
Frandy: I'll make you a deal, being a fellow Carolinian.
Or maybe you'd like a Colt Mark 4 with bluing that knocks your eyes out, or 1991A1 NIB? Nah, just teasing you. :evil:
 
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