my new hideaway knife

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

Well then, he is mistaken, since a well-forged knife has been around just as long as a nail.


I agree for the most part, though.


All of these new makers like TOPS, the HAK, and such and such seem to be too gimmicky, when a simply tool would be best.

 

[Dirty Bob]

I learned not long after joining THR to listen to Steve's (sm's) opinions. I didn't always immediately understand, nor have I always agreed, but his postings often point out things that should have been obvious to the rest of us, but which we'd overlooked.

Anyone who doesn't get sm should find some of his postings via the search feature. The more of his postings I read, the more I respect his experience and opinions.

Re the HAK, I've run into far more satisfied than unsatisfied customers. Not every knife works for everyone. If you don't like it, I doubt you'll have trouble selling it, especially since the supply seems to have slowed in recent months. Try one of the knife forums. I suspect you can sell it in a few days.

Regards,
Dirty Bob

 

[sm]

For Ian...

...tell 'em about Jamaica...
For you Babe, I miss Ian something fierce too...

Ian has passed. I get an email from his kinfolk, a lady...

Ian hails from South Afrika, and due to a silly ass USA .gov bit, he and folks employed by his company will be arrested upon setting foot on American soil.

Jamaica, where guns are no-no. We only had $500,000 worth of mdse, and were out and about, he, a lady, and myself.

Out and about, nice ploy used by the local thugs, and we have a situation...4 BGs, one a driver, 3 of us, and they have BHPS and extra mags.
So much for gun laws...



Ian used a Nail as one of his "tools" to stop his Threat with a gun
Lady Body Guard and Driver, used a Sea Shell as one of her "tools", against her BG with a Gun
I used a Ivory Handled , Whittling knife with a 1 1/4' blade of carbon steel., against my BHP toting thug.

FWIW, other "tools" we had, in another country are the same ones Thugs use in other countries where guns are not allowed.

Hooks in a hat, the lady wore. Now this deal is used to pull down a target, by catching hair, clothing, coat, others on a team run up.

Ian had a blade in his hat, another criminal tool, he also had a bandanna...and he knew how to use a bandanna as a weapon.

I had my matching Custom Ivory Handled Slimline Trapper, no easy open feature, no lock, just a slip-joint, still I know a trick on how to get that knife open, one handed, and fast.
I also used a T shirt, still the BGs gun went off...oh well...so much for slicing the arm and the BG letting go of gun...
My straw Cowboy type hat, went Rodeo real early , like right out of the chute...

Understand there was no known gun schools back then, no Internet, no training facilities, just we had some private lessons by private persons.
Like how to use a Zippo lighter...

Four against 3 , we survived that threat.and we had a chat with the local law, our second car showed up and ...our people handled all this.
Nice Police...


Hide-away tools perhaps has a different connotation to some.

Ian and I both have had employees in situations.
Ian had some employees get tied up after the BGs come in shooting and busting glass and robbed a business.

Nail hidden assisted one employee getting knots undone.
Another had a hand-cuff key to undo cuffs...
And a small pen knife like a Mighty Mite, and single edge razor blade cut tape...worked for another...the other employees did not need tying up, dead folks don't need being tied up...

My folks had two guys dressed as ladies come in...arm rob the joint.
Tied everyone up...
Hence the reason tools need to be accessible, from different positions.
Hands in front, in back...
They used hidden tools to get loose as well, then use a hidden phone to dial Police direct, the other phones ripped out of the wall, we had other lines not known and for backup.

See some of the folks that shared with us, knew about places with checkpoints, and they shoot folks on the spot if your papers are not in order, or they flat don't like the way you look...whatever.

Hidden tools could be "improvised" or "expedient" - there is a difference.
These tools could be dropped, tossed, and thrown away.

Nothing wrong with spending money on nice things, the Ivory Knives were gifts, from Ian, still I would have walked away from them.

I wish I still had them...damn I miss Ian.

 

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

The random thugs all had the same exact guns and backup mags to boot?
wow.

So, I mean, aside from the Norman Mailer-esque writing style, are you a personal security professional, or what?


I mean, the whole "improvised attack" thing has been around forever(think jujutsu), I do get what your saying.
But to say that carrying a nail is a good idea?

Thanks, but no thanks; I'm pretty sure a good guy/smith would take the time to forge up a little pointed bar for you to carry in place of that nail for "real cheap."

 

[doc jake]

Might be wrong here, but I think the whole point of the nail is;
1. It looks like pocket junk so no explaining why you’re carrying it.
2. Can be “binned” and replaced in each country without problems at airports etc.
3. It’s very cheap as in probably free.

 

[357wheelgunner]

I mean, the whole "improvised attack" thing has been around forever(think jujutsu), I do get what your saying.
But to say that carrying a nail is a good idea?

Thanks, but no thanks; I'm pretty sure a good guy/smith would take the time to forge up a little pointed bar for you to carry in place of that nail for "real cheap."

I think that the point he was trying to make is that you don't need pocketfulls of $200 ubertacticoolmallninja gear to make it home at night.

Way too many people try to overcompensate for their complete lack of training and physical conditioning with hundreds of dollars of black coated tactical crap that they don't know how to use in the first place, unless you count the garbage that they watch on youtube for lessons, or their fantasies about gun and knife fights against ninjas and zombies.

I have a lot of respect for sm after reading many of his well written and thought out posts, anyone disrespectful to him will lose it immediately from most people at this site.

Fantastic 18th post....

 

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

Edited to embrace the philosophy of "getting along with everyone"


Anyhow, you're right; I'm for rocking the boat/ making waves without an appropriate amount of internet clout.

All joking aside, I do apologize if I made anybody genuinely upset.

EDIT: I just read a really good suggestion in another thread:

A knitting needle. Again, get a cool smithy to forge a pair for you, and then paint them pink.
Voila, the ultimate in inconspicuous self defense tools.

 

[inkhead]

If you stabbed me with that knife I would become enraged and would pull out all the stops to take you down. I'd rather be bare handed than carry a knife like that, it will just slip around once wet from sweat or blood. It generally takes a pretty long time to die from a knife wound and people are more bold to fight back. I've spent lots of time at the ER and even people who had been throat slit ear to ear with a 6" knife would walk in and live.

Small knifes often irate the situation more than provide a defense. More people die from head blows than knife wounds. If you have to defend yourself and a 2x4 is around I'd pick that over a 12" knife even...

In the movies you stab somebody and they fall down dead. In real life you stab somebody they usually DO NOT even go into shock, and will be alive for 8 minutes or more (even with good shots like inside of thigh). I just can't stress enough how a small knife in a close fight just causes more problems, and 90% of the time ends up cutting the person wielding the knife as well.

 

[357wheelgunner]

If you stabbed me with that knife I would become enraged and would pull out all the stops to take you down. I'd rather be bare handed than carry a knife like that, it will just slip around once wet from sweat or blood. It generally takes a pretty long time to die from a knife wound and people are more bold to fight back. I've spent lots of time at the ER and even people who had been throat slit ear to ear with a 6" knife would walk in and live.

I think that too many people have this fantasy where they cut someone once and they run away screaming, when in reality they might not even notice the dinky thing in your hand, or the tiny shallow would you just created. All that thing will do is cover your opponent with shallow wounds that won't stop him in the first place, probably smearing you with HIV/HEP C infected blood in the process.

Seriously, what decisive targets can you penetrate to with a tiny blade like that?

It also looks like the narrow, flat, wide blade could twist and mess up whatever two fingers you had the ring around.

 

[hso]

For those unfamiliar with the HAK, drop over to some of the dedicated SD and knife forums. Amongst the vast number of folks that have never seen anyone's blood but their own you'll find reports on it having been used. I haven't seen a report yet (not to say they don't exist) where it was used that it didn't perform.

 

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

I guess some of the people in this thread have never taken any Anatomy and Physiology courses.

There are tendons in the arm that can be cut with a small knife that'll disable a guy.

Remember, drugs aren't magic potions; they might make a guy immune to pain, but that has pain has nothing to do with physiology.

In classical fencing they have many light, quick strikes to the wrists.

Why do you think that is?

Certainly, the eyes are an even more sensitive target, regardless of the size of the knife.

 

[357wheelgunner]

Generally eye sockets, tendons, and other sensetive areas move and get blocked by other limbs and whatnot when you stab and slash at them.

You can do a lot more with a big knife than you can with a small one. If you are going to go through the trouble of carrying a little fixed blade, you can carry a medium sized folder for the same trouble. You can't ninja draw it in a split second out of a tacticool kydex holster, but you get more blade for less space.

 

[JTW Jr.]

I think what most are missing is something like the HAK is designed to be a last ditch tool , worn hidden away , hence the name , pulled when you have no other options.

Legally most places restrict blade length , especially for concealed...all I can carry is a 3" blade max concealed , I carry a folder and a fixed. Folder is for chores...fixed is for other stuff.

 

[inkhead]

I think the problem is that it makes people believe they have an extra edge of security which they do not.

As far as cutting someone in the right spot, I've never seen this happen ever. I've probably examined 250+ knife wounds including post mortem bleed-outs. You'd need to basically cut someone's arm off to get them to bleed out, and even then, I've seen missing limb people WALK themselves into the ER. The inner thigh near your genitals has major arteries, but unless you study you probably wouldn't hit them without 10 or so tries.

As far as stabbing somebody in the eyes, face with something small, good luck. I've seen plenty of people who this has been attempted on and it almost always results in a scratch or cut across the face, that's not much worse than getting hit with a bush. People instinctively cover their faces, and hands work very well against small knives, they move around, are hard to puncture because they aren't heavy enough to stab through as they move in the air.

As far as eyes this is just science fiction unless you've spent your entire life training or are experienced in martial arts and can deal a quick glancing blow faster than somebody can see. It's the same as trying to kick a gun out of someone's hands, it can be done without the person seeing in time, but usually only by trained people.

It's extremely hard to pierce an eyeball. I know I've dissected many of them. Even laying down on a table stabbing an eyeball with the sharpest surgical tool is difficult. Most of you if you are brave can test this out for yourself by getting pig (i recommend this over cow) or cow eyes, and if you want some further tests get a cow skull and try stabbing around the eye socket, its similar in strength to the human head.

I'm not trying to tell you that a knife won't help, I guess I just see so many injuries, and most of them are to the person who had the knife for protection! I just want people to realize how difficult a weapon the knife is. In most violent areas a knife is more about "scare factor" and mind games, especially if it's a large knife.


If I were to carry that knife I would wait till the last possible second to draw it, warn the person off with the threat of violence, and pull the knife after they are already near you.

The best place to stab with a little knife like that (in my opinion) would be the armpit. It's usually an easy target, usually goes unprotected, and is VERY easy to pierce and have a blade sink in with only a few pounds of force. You would immediately disable the arm from raising up to hit, or move, or raise a weapon to you.

 

[auschip]

The HAK was made for cutting, not stabbing. I agree that it would be a difficult knife to stab with, but it wasn't designed with that in mind.

 

[hso]

Good information, inkhead. Are you medical or forensics?

 

[alwilliam]

NICE POST INKHEAD !



I am into the theory and pratice of many odd weapons and people who know this will ask me ..."how can I use this"? "whats it for? " etc...I always ask if they know the human body first and so few do so I always send people to my favorite weapons training manual ...a very good anatommical chart.

As far as the eyes..seen a eye pop out and hang...this was in a fight when a thumb eye gouge was used by a very strong person..eyes are SUPER TOUGH but look fragile.

I know a biker who was set up for a hit... due to a debt..he was beat with bats badly and then had his throat cut DEEP...but his main pipes were just a bit deeper and he lived and is fine.Most people would have died..their can be no for sure cut....unless you just remove the head and thats why super psycos and pros do.Thats a for sure cut but very hard to do and with a small blade well it may take a LOOONG TIME.

On the other hand..their are dudes who have the skill to hit the eye with a blade...I have few very gory pics in my files of a guy who was hit in the eye with a thin long blade and killed ..he was also hit in the inside of the mouth...I agree the killer was VERY skilled to be able to do this.

Their are ways to cut the forhead and let blood run into the eyes that can semi-blind a person..blood in the eyes sucks ! The back of the hands can be cut and will bleed alot....for what reason would I do this ? To allow an escape or to transition to a better weapon.I would never do this with a thought of stopping a attack that would be insane.It may buy me 1/2 second.

I have always thought of small blades as nothing more than last ditch escape type weapons.


That all said ...as far as my study of weapons the impact device i.e. sap.blacjack has a far better chance of stopping a human than a knife.

I know guys who have used blades and guys who have used saps as working tools...sap beats a blade hands down and they are a lot less messy .



I have been cut,stabbed and clubbed bad a few times in my life.Never been shot but have been shot at a few times.Its all very scary BS when it really goes down....small knife or not.


I was cut very bad with a box cutter ... that was also pressed in at points as it cutting (11 inch long cut) on my left arm.Fat spilling out,tearing skin ,blood all over ...crazy **** happens with long deep slash wounds.Arm that was hit froze up a bit and was not 100% will guess 80% useful...other arm was fine and did its job.After all this was over and I started to relax a wee bit and looked at my arm it did cause a type of shock to set in....dont look at your wounds until you are safe...it might freak you out.

Was also Stabbed 3 times with a ice pick type shank in the lower body that hit the small bowel .Almost died from peritonitis over this....Was able to function fine at the time...was like a VERY HARD punch to the gut nothing more...lots of problems way later from this.

Stab wound to left inner arm about a tiny 3 inch blade right in and ripped out.A joke really... lots of blood but no major damage and no loss of control over arm. This was a good example because the guy did this as a surprise attack and then blinked/kind a froze... when it did nothing gave me time lots of time to handle the problem.

I will get some pics of these 20 + year old wounds as they still look bad....knifes wounds do leave wicked scars.

I was a greenhorn and thought my academy training was the ****... it was NOT.After the box cutter deal I changed my whole street plan and never been cut/stabbed again.Well not yet and I hope NEVER AGAIN !

also want to add that I dont want people to think this is bragging in any way...scars dont mean "tough/cool " to me .

All the scars really mean is that I was a greenhorn fool and made some real bad mistakes on the street and was VERY lucky to live and learn from my mistakes.I WILL only post the pics to show what just a small sharp edge really can do.


What did I learn...well I learned to WATCH THOSE HANDS ....and I mean really watch them ...I thought I watched hands until I learned what to really watch for ....odd finger placements,tight fingers,thumb where is it,etc....

I learned to keep people back as much as possible...in fact because my new street plan... I left patrol type work ...it was just to close for me and not a lot of control....way to dangerous. Deep cover work is way safer IMO.
Remember to give the patrol type cop a hand as it really is hands on trench warfare at times.

 

[ExSoldier]

What about a knife as a "distractor?" I had a buddy (Special Forces Officer) get jumped by several thugs in Bangkok. He allowed them to basically fall on top of him in a huge tangle and then he had a small but very sharp blade out and I forget the brand, maybe a SpyderCo Delica? As he went down to the bottom of the pile he was grasping for ankles, he said to me later. As soon as he got hold of an ankle he was able to feel for and subsequently sever the achilles tendon. Did that three times and was able to roll out from the pile-on with but a few scrapes and take off. This guy could run like a DEER, too. He said he glanced back to check for pursuit and saw three guys dragging themselves along the ground as the others tried to figure out ***? I don't doubt the story, he was a wild and crazy guy in his day. I'm certain such a move probably wouldn't work in most encounters, but it seemed to me that this attack was tailor made for such a defense. It would never have occured to me, at any rate. Goes to show that the deadl;iest weapon really IS the mind.

 

[inkhead]

I don't see a pile on as a safe escape plan, however I was advocating something similar with "wait till the last second". I think with a knife that is small your tacit becomes "use" rather than "threat of use" so I would scream, shout, do anything to scare the person, NOT show the knife to scare them, and then wait till they are basically on you and use their surprise when they see blood dripping. I think I'd be screaming "dude, are you okay? you've been stabbed, look you are bleeding!"

I think to exsoldier, if I were jumped in bankok, (why jumped and not just robbed?) I would use anything that helps, and if somebody is jumping me rather than threatening me with a weapon, i'd probably just pull that out and start stabbing, which would probably be the last thing I ever did. My guess is being jumped they wanted your money and would give you a really good beating, which could be shortened by acting dead quicker so they leave. Most people aren't out to commit murder like that, but then again it's bangkok.

Either stab in the armpit, or if your afraid you might not make it, stab at the genitals repeatedly. You probably won't get through clothes, but something poking at your stuff often creates a reaction of "**** my junk!", and it's been beating into our heads since we were young, "protect your jewels at all costs."


As far as HSO's question, yes to both, but I don't want to talk about it very much, but I have lots "hands on experience".

alwilliam,
your post brought up another good point when you mentioned the person froze after stabbing you. It's very common for somebody to take one adrenaline heated blow, then suddenly realize they are seeing something gross, and it kicks in what they did and they freeze. I think this is more common in law abiding citizens, where stabbing someone would be a once-in-a lifetime experience. For protection reasons it would be better to keep stabbing till they screamed for you to stop or left the scene, but you could get in trouble if the wounds tell the story that you went nuts, when it looks like the person should have been down or ran.

sorry I keep coming back and editing my post to add more notes after I re-read again each post, sorry my mind is all over the place.

Knife as a distraction:
With something this small, (i would guess) that anyone who would be distracted/afraid of this small of knife is somebody who's ass you could kick without ever taking out the knife. If you get a gangbanger or street thug this is a very dangerous person, because idiot brain dictates not backing down, and showing off how great you are, even if that means getting killed. Likewise anyone military or with defense training is going to know that the little knife is a distraction and probably just be more annoyed.

I don't know, so many variables.

 

[alwilliam]

"I don't know, so many variables"



That really sums it up...their is no way to know if a light tap with a blackjack will kill one guy while a heavy tap will make the next guy so mad that he will NOT be stopped until your dead.

A knife will be worse...a knife is a excellent daily use tool or a silent killing type weapon and a good one... but has NO quick stopping power...unless you remove the head and well that takes a large knife and a high skill level.

Sure you can study and learn what pipe to cut and you can get good enough to target it and maybe even cut it well enough...but then ya got to wait a few seconds even with the best cut for the guy to go out.

If I got 3 seconds of conscious thought after a fatal injury has happened...the killer is comeing with me for sure, no doubt in my mind....



I see guys freeze up all the time on the street...they hit a dude and wait for well... I dont really know ??? For the guy to recover ??? to see if they killed him ??? fear of some type ???

The well street/prison trained people ,just go and very fast and do not stop till other guy is knocked out.Seen a few crazy stabbings very fast and many many strikes....it does seem to faze a person but it takes a lot of VERY fast multi hits.The single stab or cut does not work..trust me been their had it done .

I hate those type guys....Dangerous they rarely telegraph much ...take care of biz and split.Lot of the AB type dudes are like this.

Cant say much but I did work the aryan nations butler compound years ago and while most of those guys are goof balls in the extreme...I did meet a few very well trained guys real military/goverment trained persons and life long criminal killer types..I was trusted and able to have some good talks about skills,weapons,etc... On the outside I was like nice Bro I like that move...on the inside I was like man these guys are really dangerous and scared to death.Thank GOD these guys are rare and keep it in the groups for the most part.