bogie
Member
Ya know, Tune, you gotta make it out here to Misery some time... Bring a bit of gear with you, and we'll see where Arne's gigging...
My son "busted" for saying "gun" on bus.
- Thread starter Intune
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gunsmith
member
in the early seventies
we had kids smoking pot on the school bus and bringing knives and chucks to school.
We would have bought guns too but for lack of. (NY).
You can always say your kid was talking about liberal icon JFK and how he used a GUN once or twice.
Then they can't touch him
we had kids smoking pot on the school bus and bringing knives and chucks to school.
We would have bought guns too but for lack of. (NY).
You can always say your kid was talking about liberal icon JFK and how he used a GUN once or twice.
Then they can't touch him
If you give someone a little respect, they're likely to give it back. If you give them none, and there is no fear of the consequences, they will give you NONE. This is true for kids, especially. If you treat them like human beings, instead of cattle to be herded from class to class, they may just surprise the hell out of you.
Just my personal opinion, anyway, but the bus driver is A.) Stupid for enforcing a non existent rule, thus undermining any respect the kids had for him/her and B.) Stupid for using such a meaningless consequence. I mean really, what kind of kid is going to care about a write up if it doesn't even do anything until you have 5? Even then, the kid just sits in a room doing work to occupy himself, what kind of consequence is that?
Just my personal opinion, anyway, but the bus driver is A.) Stupid for enforcing a non existent rule, thus undermining any respect the kids had for him/her and B.) Stupid for using such a meaningless consequence. I mean really, what kind of kid is going to care about a write up if it doesn't even do anything until you have 5? Even then, the kid just sits in a room doing work to occupy himself, what kind of consequence is that?
Gaucho Gringo
Member
Tulsamal, both of them are tenured teachers that have over 25 years of seniority. My sister in law who decided at age 40 that she wanted to be a teacher does not have it so good. She went back to school for 3 years, then she had to substitute for 4 years and finally when she got a permanent position she had to sweat out 3 years before she got tenured. Even then her salary is a lot less then my neighbors make because the teachers union negotiated a 2 tier salary structure that kept the high salaries of the teachers that had been there for 10 years or more while the new ones get paid less. My sister in law gets paid about $25,000 a year while the teachers that are my neighbors get paid almost $60,000 a year, they all teach in the same school district and my sister in law is the same age as them - 52 years old. I am not attacking the dedicated teachers like you and my sister in law, only the fat cats like my neighbors who think it is their right to feed high off the public trough.
Travis Lee
Member
Treat children like human beings?!
That's crazy talk!
What are you, some kind of lunatic extremist?
--Travis--
That's crazy talk!
What are you, some kind of lunatic extremist?
--Travis--
Sage of Seattle
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+1 Mannix.
You know, the sad fact is that the vast majority of people who have authority have never been properly trained in how to effectively USE THAT AUTHORITY.
I have four children, two boys and two girls ages 6 through 11. I believe the best thing is to teach my kids to stand up to such petty authority, for that lesson of life is far more important in the long run than the mere few years of their school career.
ETA: We, as adults, have the luxury of far-sightedness that children do not. Part of our responsibility is to help them choose a path that is best for them as best as we are able.
And as far as Zero Tolerance policies are concerned, they are merely a symptom of a far greater issue in American society; another such symptom is mandatory sentencing for criminals which just takes away a judges power to better fit the punishment to the circumstances of the crime. It is right that we, as a society, entrust this judgement to a select few, however it is also right that we, as a society, continue to make sure that those with judgement use it most effectively. Taking away that judgement only causes further degredation and suffering.
Intune, fight the good fight -- teach your son to accept responsibility for his actions yet also teach him that it's okay to question authority (knowing when to question authority, however, is sometimes a hard lesson to learn). And ignore the detractors in this thread -- if you were truly a parent who thought his kid could do no wrong and is just a victim of unyielding authority, you would not have posted to THR asking for advice in the first place.
Interesting thread. A lot of stereotypes tossed around on both sides of the issue. I believe in standing up for what's right (Fess Parker as Davy Crockett: "be sure you're right and go ahead" or something). MANY years ago when in school, I would challenge authority as part of a slow maturation process and I don't think I would put up with me today. Make sure you're right and take the right measured steps. Ensure that your son understands all the lessons of this situation. I am a little concerned with some of the " in your face" suggestions, unless they are in jest. As to zero tolerance, it's a sign of the time. A combination of big net to get the really big violators, some intellectual laziness and probable fear of litigation. Good luck.
OP
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Intune
Member
Mannix-
SoS, thanks for the support. My wife wants to avoid any sort of confrontation and for Ad to fly beneath radar. She believes that just taking the punishment, no matter how unjustly applied, is better than the potential retribution they could lay on Ad for the next 1.5 years. I disagree. It is causing a bit of strife in our family. Notice the pebble tossed into the pond Grasshopper. Observe the ripples...
I will leave shortly for the school to request a copy of the driver report & to set up a meeting with the Principal. Oh, & to pick up Ad. Little troublemaker...
He received a three-day suspension from the bus due to the egregious nature of his violation.
SoS, thanks for the support. My wife wants to avoid any sort of confrontation and for Ad to fly beneath radar. She believes that just taking the punishment, no matter how unjustly applied, is better than the potential retribution they could lay on Ad for the next 1.5 years. I disagree. It is causing a bit of strife in our family. Notice the pebble tossed into the pond Grasshopper. Observe the ripples...
I will leave shortly for the school to request a copy of the driver report & to set up a meeting with the Principal. Oh, & to pick up Ad. Little troublemaker...
ZigZagZeke
Member
Correia:
It is exactly on the topic of why zero tolerance policies are popular in educational circles.
The quote above is a case in point. Let's not argue the facts. Let's just establish a policy of ignoring them if they are unpleasant. Further, let's discourage challenges to that policy.
It is exactly on the topic of why zero tolerance policies are popular in educational circles.
The quote above is a case in point. Let's not argue the facts. Let's just establish a policy of ignoring them if they are unpleasant. Further, let's discourage challenges to that policy.
CoRoMo
Member
My grandfather, God rest his soul, told us grandkids of how he and his brother took a .22 rifle to school everyday. Everyday through elementary school. Back then, several different grade levels met together in the rural one-room schoolhouse.
Him and his brother ran a route of fur traps on their way to the paved road, where they would get on the bus for school. He told us that they HAD to have a gun with them everyday because the animals were always still alive when they arrived at each trap. When they got to the bus, and to the schoolroom, they'd simply lean the .22 in the corner and get to the learnin. There was never any worry from the teacher or anyone back then.
As he was telling us the story one time, he mentioned that skunk pelts were the most valuable. One of us exclaimed "You skinned skunks! Didn't that make you stink?"
He said, "I guess so... well, now that I think of it, nobody would ever sit next to us on the bus".
Him and his brother ran a route of fur traps on their way to the paved road, where they would get on the bus for school. He told us that they HAD to have a gun with them everyday because the animals were always still alive when they arrived at each trap. When they got to the bus, and to the schoolroom, they'd simply lean the .22 in the corner and get to the learnin. There was never any worry from the teacher or anyone back then.
As he was telling us the story one time, he mentioned that skunk pelts were the most valuable. One of us exclaimed "You skinned skunks! Didn't that make you stink?"
He said, "I guess so... well, now that I think of it, nobody would ever sit next to us on the bus".
Hard to say who's "right" here. You'll know in a couple years, maybe. Or not.
It's not necessarily a bad lesson to learn, not to goad semi-crazy people who have petty authority. As in, don't start a fight with the cop, get a lawyer instead.
"Roll over and take it" and "protect the ego at all costs" are not the only two alternatives here. And I'm not sure I buy the martial arts analogy. Where's the Tao in what you're doing, really?
And does your wife REALLY want to "roll over and take it", or does she just believe in choosing one's battles wisely?
Clearly, you feel very strongly about this. And ultimately, you're right. But what's the best way to WIN this, big picture? What's the objective?
(I've always heard that "living well is the best revenge". When your son is 40, or even 20, and loves his life, will this bus driving idiot matter at all?)
Sage of Seattle
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ArmedBear said:
I have to laugh after reading that. When I wrote my post a few hours ago, I pulled down my pocket Tao Te Ching trying to find a specific passage that I thought may be applicable.
Cosmoline
Member
I liked the buses I rode down south. Boys on one side, girls on the other. And as the bus OWNER (that's right--OWNER) Mr. Woodard told us "There ain't no talkin' on this bus." He was a hoot. Kept the peace though. In stark contrast to the Lord of the Flies nightmare I was dropped into when we came back north again.
George Hill
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Direct 2nd Amendment Violation. Sue for Civil Rights violation.
whitetiger7654
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Actually I think it would be the 1st in this case.
Oh, good grief. What a load of sexist codswallop.
Zero tolerance policies are "popular" because Mr. and Mrs. American want to "know that the schools are DOING SOMETHING to stem the tide of violence, blah blah blah". It is political. Period. Zero tolerance in Texas exists because the Texas Legislature (NOT a body well known for being run by or for women, I can assure you) passed S.B. 1, and rammed it down the throats of every school district in Texas.
Read that last again. Rammed it down the throats. The districts hate it. As someone pointed out about Vinita, OK, a lot of small town school districts are personal, they know their kids, and until SB1 MANDATED certain punishments for specific "offenses", kids caught acting up would more likely have been given laps to run or trash cleanup detail for a month than sent to "alternative educational placement" or juvie jail. But now they have no choice.
I spent years as a school psychologist dealing with the aftermath of that bloody stupid law with special education kids, and I can tell you that very few administrators and teachers liked anything about it.
Even the women.
Springmom
Hey, new guy, let me clue you in here for a bit. I don't give a flying damn one way or the other about the policy, it ain't my job to fix all of society's problems, and I have barely even skimmed this thread. If you'll notice, there's a title underneath my name which means the owner has asked me to enforce certain rules. One of those rules is that we don't go out of our way to denigrate entire chunks of the population, especially on spurious reasoning.
So when I get notified by a few members that they've got somebody going out of there way to point out that women are inferior, emotional, illogical, and cause for whatever the hell the problem is that everybody is all freaked out about, I have to come check it out.
I'm not here to argue facts, nor to even determine them. I'm acting in an offical capacity to say that the thread needs to stay on topic, and I frankly don't care what your scientific studies say. If your study said it was the fault of left handed Mexicans born on Saturday, I wouldn't allow that either. I'm going to enforce Oleg's rules because he asked me to.
Got it? Because picking fights with mods here is a losing proposition.
And Springmom, I don't even know what at Codswallop is.
zxcvbob
Member
It sounds dirty...
glockman19
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Codswallop,
OP
OP
Intune
Member
ArmedBear-
Mrs. L, the assistant principal, started questioning us one by one in her office. Then, she asked me to write down what happened. Afterward, when I was finished, she looked it over and asked me who started it and who was arguing with Mrs. Driver the most. I said, “We weren’t really arguing; we were just asking why we were getting in trouble for saying the word gun.” Mrs. L then asked who was saying it the most. I said, “Probably ****.” She told me to write it down. Then, she asked if Mrs. Driver had told us to stop. I said, “in a way no, because she told us that she wouldn’t talk further to us. She told us we had to talk to Mrs. Principal about it.” When I tried to explain Mrs. L stopped me and said, “No, it is a true or false question!” It seemed like she was getting mad for me to say it so I said, “I guess true.” She then told me to write down that Mrs. Driver told us to stop.
Notice the “Afterward, when I was finished, she looked it over…”
On the form it reads –
Student’s side of the story:
SPACE
I have had a chance to tell my side of the story____ Student’s signature
You can clearly see on the form that he had already signed his name and the “who started it and the driver told us to stop” parts were added later and curve up & around his signature. On HIS supposed statement. The coercion and intimidation that took place has me concerned. It is wrong.
I don’t know what the best way to win is. The objective is for these kids to be able to talk about hunting, shooting, guns, cannons & knives without getting in trouble. It’s not wrong or illegal. If there was a rule for no singing on the bus, fine. No singing. If the student would have shouted, “JANIES GOT A GUN!” Bust his butt. Such was not the case. Ad said- “Mrs. Principal got on the bus and said, ‘The people who have been ACTING like they are shooting people need to stop, you know who you are.’” I can even see the rationale in this policy. Somebody doing the old “pistol finger, pow" at me from the next car over would get my attention. Again, this is not what happened. Look what Ad said happened in the office-
Mrs. L, the assistant principal, started questioning us one by one in her office. Then, she asked me to write down what happened. Afterward, when I was finished, she looked it over and asked me who started it and who was arguing with Mrs. Driver the most. I said, “We weren’t really arguing; we were just asking why we were getting in trouble for saying the word gun.” Mrs. L then asked who was saying it the most. I said, “Probably ****.” She told me to write it down. Then, she asked if Mrs. Driver had told us to stop. I said, “in a way no, because she told us that she wouldn’t talk further to us. She told us we had to talk to Mrs. Principal about it.” When I tried to explain Mrs. L stopped me and said, “No, it is a true or false question!” It seemed like she was getting mad for me to say it so I said, “I guess true.” She then told me to write down that Mrs. Driver told us to stop.
Notice the “Afterward, when I was finished, she looked it over…”
On the form it reads –
Student’s side of the story:
SPACE
I have had a chance to tell my side of the story____ Student’s signature
You can clearly see on the form that he had already signed his name and the “who started it and the driver told us to stop” parts were added later and curve up & around his signature. On HIS supposed statement. The coercion and intimidation that took place has me concerned. It is wrong.
ZigZagZeke
Member
Well folks, this "new guy" isn't going to get to be an "old guy" around here. You've just demonstrated how you handle an unpopular opinion (which WAS, BTW on topic). You all just stay right here in your comfortable little world where nobody is allowed to upset you. I'll be moving along.
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