Mythbusters!! Ported guns and muzzle flash

[TexasRifleman]

No, it's an irrelevant point. Because no school is going to teach a retention position with your face right above the gun.

If you're in a position where your face is going to be hurt by the muzzle blast of your own gun, then your own tactics have seriously failed you and you have much bigger issues to deal with than your eyebrows being singed.

You've posted in this thread many times defending your position as "definitive".

You have NOT busted a myth, you've shown that in your particular case you are OK with the use of a ported handgun.

There's a big difference. To be even remotely definitive you need a test bed of more than one......

 

[pax]

No, it's an irrelevant point. Because no school is going to teach a retention position with your face right above the gun.

Shootcraps ~

Have you ever practiced disarms (using a dummy gun) with a buddy?

pax

 

[Shootcraps]

Shootcraps ~

Have you ever practiced disarms (using a dummy gun) with a buddy?

pax

No. And how many civilians have?

 

[Shootcraps]

You have NOT busted a myth, you've shown that in your particular case you are OK with the use of a ported handgun.

And that means that it should not be "preached" that ported guns are bad to use for SD. It "could" affect some people, but in general it will not.

 

[pax]

No. And how many civilians have?

I have. I'm a middle-aged housewife.

Granted, I probably have a strange circle of friends, but we do get together and practice this stuff. After we all knew what we were doing with it, we began practicing some of the disarms at speed (wearing protective gear, with everyone knowing what they're doing, donottrythisathome, consultyourlawyerformoreinformation ...). When you first begin learning, your partner is supposed to give you just enough resistance that you can learn the move, but eventually we started speeding up and practicing with a little bit more realistic resistance. It's valuable stuff.

I'm here to tell you that if you ever need to fire when you are in a struggle for the gun, it is very likely that you will be in some stupid, contorted, unlikely position with your face somewhere it would never ever be on the range.

Take it or leave it.

pax

 

[farscott]

And that means that it should not be "preached" that ported guns are bad to use for SD. It "could" affect some people, but in general it will not.

Have to disagree here. First, your limited experience (a box of rounds) is not a lot of rounds through a gun, so your conclusion may be considered to be based on a very small set of data. Shoot 100 rounds through the pistol every week for a year, and then reassess. Shoot different lots and types of ammo to see if the port is an issue. I have a few thousand rounds through my ported SP-101's, and I no longer carry them as CCW guns. I use them only for trail guns. Another good test is to take the pistol to a shooting school. Five hundred rounds in a week in a good shooting school teaches a lot about equipment suitability.

Second, lots of civilians practice disarms and practice stopping disarms. Like most police officers and pilots going through the Federal Flight Deck Officer program. Also, individuals who attend shooting schools on their own time and out of their own pocket practice disarms.

Third, you are drawing conclusions about all ported guns based on your one datum. There are lots of ported guns chambered in quite a few cartridges. Your experience with a .45 ACP in a 1911 variant may not correspond to someone using .40 S&W in a Glock or 9x23 Winchester in a 1911 due to the pressure differences. Port design may also play a factor since a Mag-Na-Port looks a lot different than a Hybra-Port.

 

[Biker]

You've posted in this thread many times defending your position as "definitive".

You have NOT busted a myth, you've shown that in your particular case you are OK with the use of a ported handgun.

There's a big difference. To be even remotely definitive you need a test bed of more than one......

That's fair enough. The only ported handgun I've ever shot, much less tested, is my Taurus 450. In this particular case, I feel that the benefits far outweigh any drawbacks, real or percieved.
Biker

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Did you try different ammo? Some stuff is very "flashy". Blue dot for example or power pistol comes to mind as stuff that gives a nice solid flash. Other powders do not flash much so I could see your result.

 

[Dave Dembinski]

Did you try different ammo? Some stuff is very "flashy". Blue dot for example or power pistol comes to mind as stuff that gives a nice solid flash. Other powders do not flash much so I could see your result.

Even just in factory ammo, I've noticed Rem UMC .38 spl flashes one heck of a lot more than WWB. Don't know if this carries across other calibers, since I've never noticed a real problem with flash in my autos.

 

[Biker]

As I recall, my handloads used Unique. The flash was not important as I only carry them in the woods, so to speak. The Winchester Silvertip factory loads exhibited considerably less flash, which is the round I normally carry for 'in-town' SD.
Biker

 

[Shootcraps]

Did you try different ammo? Some stuff is very "flashy". Blue dot for example or power pistol comes to mind as stuff that gives a nice solid flash. Other powders do not flash much so I could see your result.

No, since I would not carry handloads for defense. Next time I try it I'll get some WWB and maybe some Silvertips.

 

[Ulvetann]

Interesting!

I find this thread interesting, since I am considering an aquisition of a ported barrel to my new CZ85B! I am a patient person, who like to lurk around (on internet), to obtain information that can give me more wisdom.
Through the things being described, I have gotten several persons knowledge, and 'beliefs'
This is great, because there has been beliefs of my own that has been puzzling for my mind. Such as projectile velocity, effect of porting, internal/external porting, remnant build-up, angle on ports. Length of barrel, vision, sound and looks.

Some of the issues that were brought up here, that is just as important, is 'Do I need porting?' My unqualified guess to that, imho, is that porting is a more of a geek/nerd/fan/addict-issue. A subjective issue, too. As far as I have come to conclusions, is that to gain the most effect, a compensator must be applied to the gun. A compensated gun, a competition-gun, is prolly never applied in a life-or-death situation, where a gun must be drawn, to be used in an awkward position, where you put your gun close to your ear and/or face.
(if it is, I guess loss in hearing and a burnt face is better than death? ).
A ported gun shouldn't neither be drawn, to be used in an awkward position, due to same problem with the gases.
What I have learned, is that ported barrels don't have the same effect as compensators. The compensators 'use' the gases more effectively. The ports merely vents out parts of the gases. The most of the gases follows the bullet straight forward. The effectivity of the porting, is also due to what caliber the gun is firing. Whereas a small caliber (9mm) is more 'effective' regarding its already rather little recoil, than a .40-> more powerful, more jump of barrel, I don't know.
Mine is a 9mm, and I want to port it. My reason for this, is that I believe I will notice a relatively great effect of the porting, than if I had a larger gun. Then it wouldn't really matter, I would still wave the gun around, enough to 'waste' money on something that could have been better with a real compensator.
Why I don't go with a compensator? It costs to much, is too big, and I am not THAT good a competitor either. -if I am totally wrong in my theory here, please feel free to indulge me on some physical secrets.
To avoid all of the gases to go straight forward, I intend to have the barrel ported in a 15 degree angle.

My last question(s) is: Anyone know if the ports in a gun is hard to clean out? Are they collectors of grit that is impossible to remove, 'clogging up the system' Any magic numbers regarding the amount of ports? Too many and the projectile velocity will drop, but I can't imagine that the velocity will drop so much that a target 50metres away is impossible to hit?

 

[lycanthrope]

Depends on the brake and powder choice.

I find braked high pressure weapons better at dealing with flash than ones with plain muzzles. A 16" regular crowned barrel on an ar15 throws a fireball compared to most brakes/ports.

 

[Ulvetann]

Depends on the brake and powder choice.

I find braked high pressure weapons better at dealing with flash than ones with plain muzzles. A 16" regular crowned barrel on an ar15 throws a fireball compared to most brakes/ports.

Like this?
Photo: Copyright 2003, Gunblast.com

 

[Biker]

Wow! You could start your campfire with that!
Biker

 

[roo_ster]

No, it's an irrelevant point. Because no school is going to teach a retention position with your face right above the gun.

If you're in a position where your face is going to be hurt by the muzzle blast of your own gun, then your own tactics have seriously failed you and you have much bigger issues to deal with than your eyebrows being singed.

I'm here to tell you that if you ever need to fire when you are in a struggle for the gun, it is very likely that you will be in some stupid, contorted, unlikely position with your face somewhere it would never ever be on the range.

Shotcraps:

It would behoove you to re-read pax's post. If it still doesn't make sense, think about what you learned in school (HS, college, etc) and how things really are out in the workplace.

 

[lycanthrope]

Like this?

Yep. Just like that. AR pistols are still burning a boatload of powder at the muzzle. They're great at loosening up the sinuses as well.......

 

[JDGray]

Shot a Springfield XD-40 V-10, yesterday, reminded me of a top fuel dragster & about as loud! Noticeable differance compared to my .45. Great gun, but to much flash for my taste. Looking to buy a 9mm XD 5" tactical ! JDgray

 

[Shootcraps]

Shotcraps:

It would behoove you to re-read pax's post. If it still doesn't make sense, think about what you learned in school (HS, college, etc) and how things really are out in the workplace.

I have read the post and it makes sense. It's just not Gospel. Is it possible that if you get into a struggle over your gun that you may have to fire it while in an awkward position? Yes. Is it likely? No one can say because every encounter will probably be very different.

If you ever had to fire your gun with your face over top of it such that the exhaust from the ports would hurt you, you would probably also get hurt from an unported gun and its muzzle flash.

If you get into a struggle and your gun is right near your face, you are already pretty FUBARed.

 

[medmo]

"If you're in a position where your face is going to be hurt by the muzzle blast of your own gun, then your own tactics have seriously failed you and you have much bigger issues to deal with than your eyebrows being singed."

Tactics and training routinely go sailing out the window in real life situations. Sorry, but the truth is you will never develop tactics and training for all situations every time.

Now about ports.... It depends on the firearm type, caliber and model. I guarantee that a shorty Taurus in ported titanium with most 357 mag loads will burn a temporary orange globe in your retina in low light conditions. Tried it I have.... and didn't like it.

 

[Tim Burke]

The fireball above is about what I get from my ported 640 shooting Winchester White Box 110 gr 357 Magnum.
I've had people 40 yards away in full daylight come over to see what I was shooting... and if it was still intact.
Since the ports are directed 90 degrees away from the muzzle, it is entirely possible that the muzzle blast won't injure you, but the comp blast will. On the other hand, if someone grabs your gun, and you can get it to fire, the comp blast may persuade them to let go.

 

[trueblue1776]

I hope I'm never so weak that I need ports on my .40

(Just kidding old guys)

(..ooops, and girls)

 

[TexasRifleman]

I have read the post and it makes sense. It's just not Gospel. Is it possible that if you get into a struggle over your gun that you may have to fire it while in an awkward position? Yes. Is it likely? No one can say because every encounter will probably be very different.

If you ever had to fire your gun with your face over top of it such that the exhaust from the ports would hurt you, you would probably also get hurt from an unported gun and its muzzle flash.

If you get into a struggle and your gun is right near your face, you are already pretty FUBARed.

And you have very valid points there as well.

I guess the argument for me centers around "hope for the best, prepare for the worst". You've shown that for you there seems to be no DISadvantage of the ported weapon. What are your perceived ADVANTAGES? What about using a ported weapon gives you an edge over your opponent, in a defensive shooting scenario?

It seems to me that if there are no real advantages, but a 1 or 2 % chance that things could turn out to make it a DISadvantage, then it's still a step backwards.

 

[cpileri]

hmmm

Interesting...
I did the same thing with the taurus M450, but different ammo: used National Bullet Co 255gr SWC's and WInchester 250gr cowboys. Both resulted in a nice high V-shaped jet of flame that did significantly leave a retinal afterimage and affected, mayeb for 1 or 1.5 seconds, my ability to positively identify my sights on-target.
That would be one looooooong second in a gunfight!

Just goes to show that the use of low-flash powders, how much powder, barrel elngth, etc all make a very big difference!

C-

I've conducted low light tests with my ported Taurus 450 and the flash was not noticeabley greater than the flash from my 3 inch (had the barrel cut down) Ruger Blackhawk, also in 45 LC. I also held a sheet of typing paper about 6 inches over the barrel and fired a couple of rounds.
Although the paper was slightly darkened, there was no physical damage.
These tests were conducted with Winchester 45 LC 225 grain Silvertips and some handloads. The handloads were brighter than the factory loads.
All in all, at least with my 450, I feel that the porting increases contollability with minimal drawbacks of any kind. Jmo...
Biker

 

[lycanthrope]

Powder type, burn rate and barrel length all have very large effects on muzzle flash.

I haven't found that porting makes a lot of difference in my vision based on competition shooting in low light. The ported and unported guns all have a fireball. If you're focused on the target you don't notice it as much, but if you're looking for the flash.....well, that's different.