National ID Card dropped

Status
Not open for further replies.
Try applying for something as mundane as your plates and they ask for your SS#. Banking SS#, drivers license SS#,

Wrong.

Under Federal Law no State can request submission of a SSN without informing people that submitting it is optional, exclusive of State tax forms and some other very limited circumstances, and then outlining the consequences for not providing it.

New apartment SS# Name something of importance that doesnt have your SS#. You buy a gun SS#.

Providing a SSN on the Federal forms at the time of a firearms purchase is optional. Anyone who had ever actually purchased a gun should know that.

SSN is not required for a concealed carry permit in Virginia.

And speaking of which . You dont really think your gun purchases are purged ...do ya?

The Federal records are required by statute to be purged.
 
Maybe next time I'm asked for my SS Card - I'll refuse... tell them what publius posted..
But...but...but....Mine says right on it that it is not to be used for identification!
Wonder what will happen...
I know if I don't put my ssn on the gun purchase form - it takes forever for the background check. (I have a common name)- You'd think I could just flash my CCW permit.
 
You need to supply your SSN to get a pistol purchase permit in MN. It used to be optional.

Why can't we hold Bush responsible for the things that he does? Who is responsible for his actions? :scrutiny:

I have even heard many Republicans saying the same thing "[sacrasm]everything is Bush's fault![/sacasm]." Even when the thing in question was Bush's idea and Bush publically pushed for it.
 
The Federal records are required by statute to be purged.
Lol haha omg ho ho ho ho ho lol he he

January 25 Neal Knox Report -- A final rule allowing the FBI to keep
firearms purchase records for 90 days "for audit purposes" and
allowing such "Instant Check" records to be shared with BATF was
included in the blizzard of last-minute regulations handed down by
the departing Clinton Administration.

The new regulations were published Jan. 22, the first workday
of the Bush Administration, apparently before the new President's
ban on publishing 30,000 pages of last-minute Clinton
Administration regulations took effect. They had been signed by
former Attorney General Janet Reno on January 12.

The final rule acknowledges "Although the Brady Act mandates
the destruction of all personally identified information in the
NICS associated with approved firearms transactions (other than the
identifying number and the date the number was assigned), the
statute does not specify a period of time within which records of
approvals must be destroyed."


In other words, "the law requires that you quit beating your
wife, but it doesn't say when."

Reno's rule dismissed other comments by the rules' critics,
such as arguments that keeping the information for any period
violated the Privacy Act, or that the alleged need for audits to
could be conducted using the records of denied a firearm purchases,
which the law allows FBI to keep.

As for existing law prohibiting establishment of a firearms
registry, or transferring firearms purchase information to any
government facility, that didn't apply because these records are
"only for audit purposes."


Simply put yep there purged but a copy still remains with another agency

Further, the existing law's prohibition against BATF gathering
records on gun purchases didn't apply because "information that
will be provided to ATF consists of NICS system records, not
records of an FFL (licensed dealer)."

Years ago, when I pointed out a section of gun law to a
lifelong Federal bureaucrat, he indignantly declared: "that's only
what it says; it's not what it means."
 
Even when the thing in question was Bush's idea and Bush publically pushed for it. - dustind

I think you are right, but Bush bashing goes way beyond that. If you don't like the weather, blame it on Bush.
 
Simply put yep there purged but a copy still remains with another agency



No, they don't. And no link to what you've posed either. Lots of credibility there.

No. If you had even bothered to read what you have posted you'd see that Knox's report is 4 years old and is referring to rules implemented under Janet Reno. Today the records are purged after 24 hours as per Federal Rules imposed by Atty. Gen. Ashcroft, over 3 years ago. NICS check data is not maintained by BATFE.

As for BATFE, no, they do not maintain a database of firearms purchases. And they are severely restricted from sharing what they can access from FFL's & Manufacturers.

...The ATF's ability to regulate gun acquisition is further restricted by the GCA due to the agency's inability to transfer records of gun purchases. The GCA requires licensed sellers, manufactures and importers to create and maintain records of gun purchases. The statute states that it is unlawful for any licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector to sell any firearm "to any person unless the licensee notes in his records, the name, age, and place of residence of such person if the person is an individual, or the identity and principal and local places of business of such person if the person is a corporation or other business entity." While this may infringe on some of the anonymity that a gun purchaser wishes to maintain, the transfer of such information is highly restricted, thus guarding the purchaser's privacy. For example, the GCA prevents the ATF from transferring any of these records from being recorded at or transferred to "a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof." Furthermore, the statute prohibits the establishment of any federal system of registering firearms, firearm owners, or firearm transactions or dispositions. The only exception to these prohibitions is federal inquiry into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation.

The GCA provides even further restrictions on the ATF's ability to maintain and compile records on a gun purchase. For example, except for court-ordered warrants and for records necessary for criminal investigations, the statute prohibits ATF compliance personnel from inspecting the inventory and records of a licensed firearm manufacturer, importer, or dealer more than once a year. While each licensed seller is required to maintain a report on multiple sales of firearms to an unlicensed person and forward the report to a local or state law enforcement agency, this agency cannot then disclose any contents to any person or entity, and more importantly, must destroy any record of the contents no more than 20 days after a record is received. The only exception to this provision is if the purchaser of the firearm is barred by federal law from acquiring a firearm or shipping one interstate. Thus, while there are some infringements on the privacy surrounding a firearm purchase, the infringements are quite restricted. Essentially only the firearm retailer or licensee has record of a gun purchase, and if such record needs to be forwarded to another agency for very limited purposes, this record must be destroyed within 20 days.

It is important to consider the FFL's record keeping requirements and their implications on the gun purchaser's privacy. When purchasing a firearm from an FFL, a Form 4473 (also known as the "Yellow Form"), as required by the ATF. The dealer must also record the sale in his transaction log. Form 4473 contains the name, address, NICS background check transaction number, serial number and model of the firearm, and a short federal affidavit stating that the purchaser is eligible to purchase firearms under federal law. Lying on this form is a felony and can be punished by up to five years in prison in addition to fines, even if the transaction is denied by NICS. The dealer must keep the Form 4473 for twenty years and is subject to inspection by the ATF to ensure compliance, but not more than once annually. The dealer also records all information from the form 4473 into his transaction log. A dealer must keep this log the entire time he is in business and is required to surrender the log to the ATF upon retirement from the firearms business. This record-keeping system creates an informal national firearm registration. While it is not centralized, it is important to note that the information of a gun purchaser is held by the retail dealer. Some have argued for a centralized federal registration system of all firearms, but so far this has not been accepted....

http://www.epic.org/privacy/firearms/

Again, no SSN is required on the 4473. Anyone who had actually purchased a gun would know that.

And there's nothing preventing one from purchasing a firearm in a private sale to which no records are kept in many States.
 
Last edited:
why_me and cool hand luke missed the law change

Last year Rep. Tiahrt included an amendment to the omnibus appropriations bill. Included in that amendment was a new word added to the code about NICS.
Here you go:
What was the Tiahrt amendment and why was everyone talking about it?
The Tiahrt amendment changed the NICS law by stating that all approved records should be destroyed immediately. The old rules allow the FBI to retain approval records for 90 days.

What is the difference between changing the law and changing a rule?
Before the Tiahrt amendment the law said after approvals to "destroy all records of the system with respect to the call (other than the identifying number and the date the number was assigned) and all records of the system relating to the person or the transfer."
This was taken by the then Attorney General Reno and the FBI in June of 1998 to mean 18 months maximum before destruction. Public comments on that rule prompted the AG to reduce that number to 6 months in November of 1998. On January 2001 the AG proposed a change that reduced that time again to 60 days. That rule went into effect in July of 2001. Also in July of 2001 the new AG proposed a change to reduce the time to 1 day, that rule did not go into effect.

The current AG has concluded that immediately destroy means 24 hours.

Federal law says that NICS info cannot be used to check if a certain person (such as a terrorist) was approved for a gun purchase. It can be checked for denials.
Federal Regulation 28 C.F.R. sec. 25.6(j), adopted in 1998, says NICS info cannot be used.

The only gun records the BATFE has are the records from gun dealers that have gone out of business. They have so far been prohibited from computerizing these records.
 
The FOID and the hunting license applications in Illinois both ask for the SS#. I believe the FOID requires one; I know the hunting licenses do. It was introduced year before last as a way to deny hunting licenses to people who have unpaid child support.

However, here's a quick inside look at the dastardly deeds your government does with such information:

The state of Illinois required people to put SS#'s on their licenses, but never got any budget money for transcribing the numbers from the returned application books onto computers or other records. By law, they have to keep the books, but they have no place to put them. Eventually, they bought private storage at a local "U-Store-It" place and have been throwing the application books in there ever since. Those little rooms fill up fast!

They literally have no idea how many people even put real numbers on the applications, and in fact the DNR phone people began informally telling irate callers that they could simply put down 123-4567-891 and forget about it.


That was a year ago, and to my knowledge they've never found any money to do anything with these applications, nor can they get permission to destroy the things.

I know all the poor little children of divorced mommies who've gotten their child support because of this program are grateful. . . . or at least they would be, if there were any.
 
Why do they even ask for SSN on form 4473?

Do you really believe data on a government computer is ever deleted?

The reason is so that John Smith the accountant that lives in Atlanta, Georgia will be easily proven to not be John Smith the felon that lives in Atlanta.

The name is flagged when submitted to NICS if your name is on the prohibited list. If you include your SSN you can prove that you are the accountant and not the felon.

As for keeping in purged info, that is why I like Georgia's CCL, it exempts the NICS check. So even though the Gov. knows I have guns, it has no clue as to what they actually are.
 
The NICS check doesn't know what the guns are either. Just that you bought one. Thats all the government needs to know. When the time comes to collect them, they won't mind looking for them with a wrecking crew.
 
Why do they even ask for SSN on form 4473?
FYI, it's OPTIONAL, you DON'T have to supply your SSN on the 4473. In fact, I know a guy who works at a gun dealership who tells everyone before hand they SHOULDN'T fill in the SSN.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top