House approves National ID card

[sterculius_number_II]

Well, if I were younger and in better health, and if there were still any way to travel abroad that was at all compatible with the dignity of an American or any sort of free person, I suppose it would be nice to go off globetrotting. I don't want to get on their airplanes bad enough to put up with all the indignities. Maybe if I owned my own jet or ocean-going yacht. I used to be interested in history, and there are a lot of historical places I'd have liked to have seen first hand. I don't ever expect to now, though.

Sterc

 

[HKGuns]

Give up yet Dbl0Kevin?

Excellent posts and points. However, you'll just never concince the conspiracy nuts that there really is no diabolical plot.

 

[DRZinn]

Driving clearly IS a privilege and not a right. If you wish to drive on land owned by you then you have that right. However, if you wish to drive on public highways and land that is not owned by you then you have no RIGHT to do so.

Sorry, that doesn't work anymore. Ya see, it's impossible to go anywhere without either doing so on a government-owned road, or climbing a lot of fences. And the number of places I can go without a car does not include most of the places I need to go to support myself. Using a car on a government-owned road is no longer an option, but a requirement, unless I restrict myself to a McJob and no further advancement in the world - ever. And even if I did that, how would I move out to a 3rd-floor walkup studio apartment without driving in the process?

 

[cracked butt]

Sorry, that doesn't work anymore. Ya see, it's impossible to go anywhere without either doing so on a government-owned road, or climbing a lot of fences

There's always busses, Bicycles and skateboards- don't need a photo ID license to use any of those.

 

[DRZinn]

How did I know that was gonna come up? Like I said, not an option if I want to advance anywhere in the world. I've worked fast-food. I didn't like it.

 

[sterculius_number_II]

Quote: "There's always busses, Bicycles and skateboards- don't need a photo ID license to use any of those."

Not yet, maybe. A Pogo stick might even work for a while too. But try walking any great distance, See how far you get before someone (probably *several* someones) shows up demanding to see some ID, and wanting to "Terry" search you. If all you've got is a library card, they're not going to be happy or like you at all.

Sterc

 

[cracked butt]

How did I know that was gonna come up? Like I said, not an option if I want to advance anywhere in the world. I've worked fast-food. I didn't like it.

There are plenty of people in cities like Chicago or NYC that have never even owned a car, yet have no problem making upwards movements.

 

[DRZinn]

Yeah, that's great. I don't live in a city.

 

[cracked butt]

Not yet, maybe. A Pogo stick might even work for a while too. But try walking any great distance, See how far you get before someone (probably *several* someones) shows up demanding to see some ID, and wanting to "Terry" search you. If all you've got is a library card, they're not going to be happy or like you at all.

Don't worry, the secret police squads will round up all dissenters like yourself and make you disappear shortly after this is enacted. They will be able pick you out of the crowd by the glint off your tinfoil helmet.

 

[cracked butt]

Yeah, that's great. I don't live in a city.

Well then you will just have to buck up like everyone else and become a licensed driver. Like someone else mentioned, driving IS a priviledge.

 

[DRZinn]

My point, which you have so skillfully evaded, is that in many places, it is a requirement. Would you call something that I must do a privilege?

 

[cracked butt]

Would you call something that I must do a privilege?

I understand where you are coming from, but noone in this country is going to hold a gun to your head and tell you where you have to live or where you have to work, or that you have to work for someone else for that matter.

There are always alternative choices, it depends on how much inconvenience you are willing to put up with.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Hi, ho, Mr. sterculius_number_II, do not be concerned

about the objurate nature of some of the responses that you have received.

Please to remember that as far back as 1992 I recall that as many as 45 percent of the population worked for some sort of .gov.

It's what they do. Do you think that some guy that works for the department of agriculture wants to see the farm bill shut down?

You see, it's us tax payers and them tax eaters.

Of course, they can't see a problem. It's job security to them. It's what they do.

In my mind I see a swine, eating it's own ham, telling himself that it's good for him and it's "The other white meat" and hoping that it dies of old age before it falls over, can't walk, and gets fired.

We're screwed.

 

[GigaBuist]

if I may...

I find this ID lesigislation disturbing, I'll admit that. I'm in MI which is one of the last hold-out states for tieing SSNs to DL's. I guess we've actually done it at this point but that issue won't come up until my next renewal.

What really irks me about this legislation is that somehow being able to tie my SSN to my DL is going to stop terrorism. Excuse me, but I've had my SSN for a while and my DL or sime time to boot. Tieing them is going to make this country safer? Okay, fine, maybe it will.

So, to get my DL I need some valid looking SSN paperwork. Our illegal immigrants from Mexico are rather adept and getting their hands on fake docs, so, i guess we're all safe because the radical terrorists out there don't know how to do this. The Mexicans got it figured out but there isn't any way the terrorists will figure it out. Thumbs up to Congress on that one. You out smarted them like a fox!

Now, if a terrorist that wants an ID needs to skip the whole SSN thing because they don't have the resources of an illegal Mexican immigrant then they can just hop to the "get a DL" process. College students are rather adept at this, especially the ones under 21 years old. Forget this "somebody that looks like me" crap -- you can MAKE DL's rather easily these days. Trust me, I did it back in the day when all this printer technology became available. Now, if you think a low paid TSA clerk is going to scan IDs any harder than somebody at a liquor store you've got something wrong with you. Odds are far higher in a liquor store that you'll find a fake ID, so they scan better. What are the odds that you'll get a fake ID from a terrorist as a member of the TSA?

My adversion to HR 418 is largely because it is entirely ineffective. It does us zero good.

If you don't think somebody can get a fake SSN that looks real enough or a fake DL you're nuts. It happens ever single day.

 

[Daemon688]

I really don't see how a national ID can be such a big deal. What is the problem? Bigger federal government? Sorry, but we live in a country where you need a certificate for birth, marriage, and death. People are hardly going to be asking you for your papers on the street for no reason.

If anything, a national ID simplifies the system. Why have 50 different types of identification when you can have 1? What information does this card store that the government can't get already?

 

[cracked butt]

Heck, if you carry a cell phone, the government can track you to where you are at anytime when you have it on. few people get all bent out of shape about that.

 

[DRZinn]

noone in this country is going to hold a gun to your head and tell you where you have to live or where you have to work,

Well, if I can't drive, then where I live severely limits where I can work. And if I only hold a McJob somewhere, than that severely limits where I can live. So we're back to my assertion that to get anywhere in society, driving is a necessity, also commonly referred to as a right.

if you carry a cell phone, the government can track you to where you are at anytime when you have it on

Not all cell phones. And I can turn it off, anyway.

 

[cracked butt]

Well, if I can't drive, then where I live severely limits where I can work. And if I only hold a McJob somewhere, than that severely limits where I can live.

Come on, you're smarter than that.
Sounds like the same arguments I always hear in the local paper from the so-called downtrodden. I can't afford a car, so I can't get a job. If the state isn't going to provide me with a car, I'm better off collecting a check from the state.

What ever happened to "when there's a will, there's a way?"

 

[DRZinn]

Please explain to me how asserting that not allowing me to do something limits my options is the same as asking the state to give me something.

Don't try to draw parallels where they don't exist.

when there's a will, there's a way

Yup, and that way might involve me getting in a car. In fact, it almost certainly does. Not letting me drive limits my ability to move.

Now - all that said, let me explain (a little late, I know) that I don't mean everyone has an unlimited right to drive regardless of how bad they may do so. Given that the government owns all roads (with a very very few exceptions) it makes perfect sense for there to be a governnment licensing procedure to drive on those roads. (Another thing the government shouldn't be involved in, owning the roads.)

Getting back to the purpose of the thread: the problem is that DL's have so much information. All they should have is a picture and the statement: The person pictured on the license has been licensed by the state of ( ) to drive ( ) class of vehicle.

 

[cracked butt]

I for the life of me just can't comprehend how millions of immigrants have come into New York City over the centuries and carved out a living relying on nothing more than their hard work and persistance instead of a physical object like a car. One of My ancestors came through New York from Holland in 1914, found her way to the state I live in, created and operated 2 businesses, and never had a driver's license or a car for the 60some years she lived here, heck she didn't even speak the language when she got off the boat.

Lets get off that track.

Should we allow people to transport nuclear, chemical, explosive, or poisonous materials on public roads without a license? Why or why not? Remember in answering the question that this would be these peoples' livelyhoods.

 

[TamThompson]

Are you kidding?

Let me get this straight--the roads are public, paid for by my tax money, and you're telling me that you believe what the government wants you to believe, which is that driving (along with a growing list of things) is a *privilege.*

No, it is not a privilege. I don't care how the government views it. They're my roads, paid for with my money. I have a right to drive on them. They are my roads, and yours, too--even if you don't realize it.

Some of y'all sound like frogs in a pot of boiling water. Our rights are being restricted more and more each year, yet you rationalize it away as "but we're still the best country." Well, duh--OF COURSE we are, but just because an elite runner knows he can win the track meet, he still puts in that extra effort to try to break the record. Being the best doesn't get us off the hook of trying to be the best and freest we can be.

It all boils down to this: are you willing to give up freedom for what is being sold to you as security?

Maybe you say you've got kids, and you want them to be able to grow up. Fine, I respect that. But in what kind of America will they grow up? One in which they are innoculated with a tracking chip in public school, in which they are subjected to on-the-spot random drug tests and searches, all of which prep them for live in a police state? Do you want your kids to live in a gulag?

And do not insult me by telling me to go live somewhere else. I am a 46-year-old Daughter of the American Revolution, my people came here in 1520, we helped start the place, and I ain't goin' no where. I will fight to remain free. And if you've ever had a war with a cranky, middle-aged married woman, you know how tough we truly are.

Come on people, catch onto what's happening---the neo-cons who run most of our government are building a police state, brick by brick.

And know this: it's easy to use loaded words like "tinfoil" and "conspiracy theory" to try to demonize and cow people whose view frighten you, but I won't be cowed. Not at all.

 

[Old Dog]

Well, I do tend to agree with Tam that the roads are OUR roads ... But as far as everything else goes -- where do we draw the line? I really don't think standardizing driver license data nationwide constitutes a "national ID card" per se ... Could it be used as one? Sure, but it's probably just as easy to track us with our BlockBuster Video cards, our VISAs or MasterCards (lot of data on those puppies) ... Most of us have bank accounts, right? Some of us even got Social Security Numbers ... Our cell phones have GPS transmitters in 'em now, for gosh sakes. Got OnStar on your GM vehicle? A U.S. passport? Armed Forces ID card? Your Safeway Club Card or Albertson's Preferred Shopper Card? Frankly, I fear the businesses that have my personal information a bit more than I fear the government. I can be hurt a lot more by misuse of my financial accounts or credit ...

The data on all of us is out there. Of course, the government wants to be able to use some of it. Is that evil? Clearly, many of you believe that it is.

Is your state -- if you live in one of those last remaining hold-out states that don't keep SSNs and the few other (easily obtainable) pieces of data on your driver licenses -- standardizing its driver licensing database to match the rest of the country really taking away any of your freedoms? How?

Come on, do you really believe the "neo-cons" in charge of our government have a plan to build a police state? If you do believe that, perhaps you are wearing that tinfoil hat. I've been through a few of those police states ... we're not even close, and I don't see us ever getting there, because we have a superb Constitution and you've got to have faith that if the government does ever try to cross that line -- willfully, intentionally remove our freedoms (not in the manner in which our freedoms are being encroached up now, which is mainly through stupidity and incompetence on the part of our politicians), the majority will finally stand up and get the government back in check ...

 

[cracked butt]

Let me get this straight--the roads are public, paid for by my tax money, and you're telling me that you believe what the government wants you to believe, which is that driving (along with a growing list of things) is a *privilege.*

Tell that to the judge when you lose your license for excessive speeding, drunk driving, etc. Yes the roads are public, but you have no "Right" to drive on them unless you are licensed.

And do not insult me by telling me to go live somewhere else. I am a 46-year-old Daughter of the American Revolution, my people came here in 1520, we helped start the place, and I ain't goin' no where. I will fight to remain free. And if you've ever had a war with a cranky, middle-aged married woman, you know how tough we truly are.

Ooh, the "I was here first, so I'm right" argument. You have the right to live anywhere you want, after that, the rest is up to you.

 

[DRZinn]

Tell that to the judge when you lose your license for excessive speeding, drunk driving, etc.

Like any right, you lose it if you abuse it. Driving dangerously is abuse. (70 in a 65 isn't, but those are just details.)

 

[cracked butt]

Like any right, you lose it if you abuse it. Driving dangerously is abuse.

Precisely.

And just how does a police officery determine who has the right to drive on the streets and who doesn't?