NATO spec/Military contract 9mm ammo...

[lsudave]

Seem to be seeing more of this right now. I've ran several cases of the Sellier & Bellot "white box" and it shoots well; I've done a case of MEN that has been good (those had the NATO cross).

Currently, chugging through the S&B/RUAG stuff that is in white boxes, also good. It isn't explicitly for NATO and doesn't have stamps, but states "military contract ammo", coming out of Czech Republic via Germany- sounds like NATO spec to me, those are NATO countries. I suppose it's "anonymous" ammo intended for the Middle East.

Have also blasted through plenty of Yavex, a Turkish (another NATO country, and they're right in the middle of things) brand, no NATO crosses but advertised as spec; that stuff appears to be the real deal, hot consistent rds with lacquer sealed cases.

Now we're seeing PPU get into this deal

Has anyone noticed this trend, seen any other NATO/"military contract" brand offerings? Maybe Fiocchi, etc?

I'm getting tempted to buy a box or so of each milspec brand; I have several duty guns (including the Beretta 92FS), and I'd be curious to see how each compares, and then keep a few rounds of each, just as examples.

 

[usp9]

I bought 1000 rounds of the S&B SB9B to replace my dwindling Winchester NATO stock. Shot a box and was very pleased. Clean, accurate and feels as hot as American NATO. I like the smaller than normal boxes too that take up less room on my ammo shelf.

 

[gotboostvr]

If you can, get some velocity numbers as well. I'd be intrested to see how they compare.

 

[ilbob]

My guess is it's just as much marketing as anything else. People will pay more for generic ammo that says law enforcement or military on the box.

It's like if you take a generic item and paint it black and call it tactical people will pay more for it.

 

[RPZ]

My guess is it's just as much marketing as anything else. People will pay more for generic ammo that says law enforcement or military on the box.

It's like if you take a generic item and paint it black and call it tactical people will pay more for it.

In my experience anything Czech and anything German is usually pretty darn good whether it is NATO, quasi NATO or not.

 

[Slamfire]

I don't have nor have I shot US Army issue 9mm. But, I have bud's who have been issued the stuff, they claimed it was +P+ and, last week, Bud told me of issue Beretta's where the slide cracked with the stuff.

I would not run any +P+ in any of my pistols, have no idea if any of this stuff is that hot.

 

[herrwalther]

Not sure how close to NATO spec or even military type ammo that stuff would be. The bullets are different colors in the pictures. I have never fired 9mm NATO rounds in a service weapon that had green primer sealant, red yes. 9mm NATO is also 124gr and often labeled as +p. 3 of the 4 boxes pictures in the OP are 115 gr.

 

[lsudave]

If you can, get some velocity numbers as well. I'd be intrested to see how they compare.

I keep meaning to get an inexpensive chronograph

, doesn't have to be the best, as I really just want to compare different ammo, and the same ammo out of different guns.
Amazon it is.

My guess is it's just as much marketing as anything else. People will pay more for generic ammo that says law enforcement or military on the box.

Yeah, I would think that too... but this stuff is almost always CHEAPER, from the same vendors.
Various S&B "white box" ammo tends to run lower than the standard commercial S&B.
The PPU Nato stuff I've seen is lower than the commercial PPU.

The Yavex ammo, the Turkish brand (and the lone ammo that comes in a pretty box) goes for around 17 cents a rd, and it's beginning to appear at more vendors. I got 124 gr on clearout at Buds, 115 gr from Selway.

BTW... the 115 is definitely a hot and fun round to shoot, just like the 124 gr is. Big white fireballs, especially out of a S&W 915.

 

[lsudave]

Not sure how close to NATO spec or even military type ammo that stuff would be. The bullets are different colors in the pictures. I have never fired 9mm NATO rounds in a service weapon that had green primer sealant, red yes. 9mm NATO is also 124gr and often labeled as +p. 3 of the 4 boxes pictures in the OP are 115 gr.

I looked into it, and NATO can go across a range (I think from 108 to 128gr), per NATO stanag 4090. M882 is specifically 124 gr. I've seen NATO marked rds with brass-colored bullets, I've seen them more copper in color. The bullets are all jacketed.

The color of the lacquer sealant is irrelevant, it's sealed primers. Yavex, the Turkish brand, is green; so is ZQI (made by MKE, which is now harder to find). So maybe the Turks use green paint.

The NATO specs are to have compatibility and similar performance across the board for NATO forces, so that you can load (for example) Czech or Turkish 9mm into a US Beretta, or a German HK5, and it works as intended. It's sealed for weatherproofing and longterm storage. It eliminates, for example, the Spanish 9mm Largo rd, as well as the .45 acp we used... the purpose is to have more efficient and streamlined supply chains across allied forces. I can't find any reference to having identical jackets.

The big points of interest to recreational shooters are- consistent, quality loads at a (generally) lower price than commercial, often approaching commercial reload prices. Sealed primers should mean longer shelf-life in rough environments (although I keep my ammo inside, and don't keep it long enough to worry about shelf-life

). Of particular note, the ammo seems to be a good bit hotter than standard commercial target ammo; which can be fun, and is also something to be aware of, if you're shooting an older pistol. For example, I wouldn't sling a lot of Yavex down my old Star Super B, as that stuff appears to approach +P, and I don't want to beat that gun to death.

 

[Rock185]

I haven't used the brands mentioned but have chronographed Winchester and IMI 124 grain NATO ammo in semi-auto pistols, revolvers, and 16" carbine. Both the Winchester and IMI bear the NATO cross headstamp. If the S&B, MEN and others are actually NATO spec, I'd imagine velocities to be similar. I've used thousands of rounds of the Winchester NATO over the last approx. 20 years, and more recently at least a couple thousand rounds of the IMI NATO. So I've got Chrono data of this ammo in quite a variety of guns, but to keep it brief I'll only list results in a couple of relatively common guns and barrel lengths. On average, IMI NATO velocities seem to run about 3 to 5% higher than the Winchester NATO velocities.

Browning Hi Power with ~4.6" barrel: Winchester NATO=1244 FPS, IMI NATO=1286 FPS.
Marlin Camp Carbine with ~16" barrel: Winchester NATO= 1296 - 1319 FPS (depending on lot/year of manufacturer,etc), IMI NATO=1344 FPS.

 

[John G C 1]

Who in the military actually uses 9mm?

I would not think there would be as much use of that as traditional rifle ammunition?

 

[VinnAY]

I didn't see any labeling in those boxes that it's an actual NATO spec round, which is 124 +P load. Marketing ploy of calling 9X19 "NATO" for folks that haven't a clue otherwise.

 

[RPZ]

Who in the military actually uses 9mm?

I would not think there would be as much use of that as traditional rifle ammunition?

Military police, special forces, aircrew, regular troops in the field in various roles, officers etc. Certainly the total usage is not anywhere as near as rifle ammo, but the sidearm is still a common feature in the military branches of all countries.

 

[lsudave]

I didn't see any labeling in those boxes that it's an actual NATO spec round, which is 124 +P load. Marketing ploy of calling 9X19 "NATO" for folks that haven't a clue otherwise.

See, I'd agree with that too, but like I said- it doesn't appear to be profit-driven.Whenever the S&B "white box" ammo shows up, it's listed at a cheaper price than regular S&B. The PPU listing is lower than the standard PPU blue box ammo. And I've used both brand's commercial offerings, they don't have sealed primers. Also, keep in mind this just shows up in batches, it isn't a "on the shelf" option.


I can't speak to the Yavex, because that's technically commercial... but we've never previously seen Yavascalar -produced ammo of any sort here in the US, it apparently had only been made and employed by Turkey to meet its' needs. Maybe they're cranking it out in high enough quantities that they now can try to exploit the US market.

 

[lsudave]

Who in the military actually uses 9mm?

I would not think there would be as much use of that as traditional rifle ammunition?
Military police, special forces, aircrew, regular troops in the field in various roles, officers etc. Certainly the total usage is not anywhere as near as rifle ammo

That might be the key point. Widespread need for the ammo dictates a buildup, but since it's not widely consumed, there are now surpluses.

 

[Mizar]

And I've used both brand's commercial offerings, they don't have sealed primers.

Up until recently, both Sellier & Bellot and PPU used primer sealant for their commercial ammo.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Yes, 9mm NATO is not very standard....

STANAG 4090 requires the projectile weight to be between 7.0 g (108gr) and 8.3 g (128 gr) and the muzzle energy when fired from a standard proof barrel (drawing provide in the STANAG, 7.08 inches from case mouth to muzzle) to between 542 J (400 ft-lbs) and 814 J (600 ft-lbs). With those bounds, you can establish the minimum and maximum muzzle velocity for any projectile weight. The chamber pressure must be between 37,000 C.U.P and 42,700 C.U.P., or 230 to 265 MPa

For a 108 gr projectile, the muzzle velocity range is 1109 fps (rather anemic) to 1358 fps.

It is also required to inflict a fatal wound to personnel protected by a M1 steel helmet and an M1952 protective vest. Although, the document does not define how one measures this.

. . . actual NATO spec round, which is 124 +P load. . .

9mm NATO ranges from rather mild to P+

 

[herrwalther]

The NATO specs are to have compatibility and similar performance across the board for NATO forces, so that you can load (for example) Czech or Turkish 9mm into a US Beretta, or a German HK5, and it works as intended. It's sealed for weatherproofing and longterm storage. It eliminates, for example, the Spanish 9mm Largo rd, as well as the .45 acp we used... the purpose is to have more efficient and streamlined supply chains across allied forces. I can't find any reference to having identical jackets.

The logistical coalition when it comes to ammo shared across NATO forces is a pipe dream and only there on paper. I have trained with over a dozen NATO signed countries. Not in any instance was their ammo fired in our weapons or vice versa. The Brits and Aussies in particular liked the green tip on our 5.56 NATO rounds.

Who in the military actually uses 9mm?

Overseas I typically carried at least 3 magazines of 9mm on my person. Unless I was going to the shower where I had to "settle" with 15+1. For most units it is a question of funding if there are enough 9mms to issue out. Outside of SOCOM, most sidearms are issued to command staff officers and NCOs, machine gun teams, and medics. If there is a surplus of sidearms they start going down to personnel who do intel work, protection details, and other jobs where a one handed firearm is needed.

 

[481]

It is also required to inflict a fatal wound to personnel protected by a M1 steel helmet and an M1952 protective vest. Although, the document does not define how one measures this.

That's probably a task saved for the ammo company employee who makes the most mistakes or misses the most days in a given month.

Can't you just see it now?

Boss to errant employee: "I see that you missed a lot of work this week, but you can make up for it right now. Here you go. Put on this helmet and vest and walk out to that tree over there by the backstop."