Natural point of aim.

[theflatlander]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Well every time I go shooting anyways . I shoot a G23 right now and I like it. I have no problem finding the sights when holding the firearm correctly and drawing the firearm from a concealed position.

I have tried a unorthodox draw and now just shooting with the natural point of aim and I dont even come close to hitting the target. This has just got me thinking some about if i was ever in a actual fire fight or feel my life is being threatened am I ever going to have the time to correctly draw my firearm or even be able to hold my firearm correctly? I might have to shoot from the hip or with my opposite hand and not even be able to use a two handed grip correctly.

Where I live we have no place to rent guns and try them. The closest place to do this is 4 hours a way and I am planning on making a trip.

So my question is to you what are your favorite makes and models of handguns that handle very naturally for you? have you made any mods to the handgun to fit you better?

 

[smalls]

So my question is to you what are your favorite makes and models of handguns that handle very naturally for you? have you made any mods to the handgun to fit you better?

That's just the thing; a gun that points naturally for me may not point naturally for you. We can recommend hundreds of guns, but you'll never know til you shoot them.

 

[Kcinnick]

You have to find the proper stance for YOUR natural point of aim.

Go to the range, or hang a target somewhere with an empty gun. Take a natural stance, put your weapon out in a natural stance and close your eyes. Now move your gun in circles about 10 times with your eyes closed and point where you think your natural aim is. Open your eyes and see what your site picture looks like. Do your best to not adjust your hands, but adjust your feet until you get your sites into alignment. It may take a few tries, but eventually you will find your natural stance and aim to get on target in a hurry.

The most important thing is getting the front site on target, because when shooting you may be moving from target to target, balancing on a piece of rope or 2X4 around a barrier to the get best shot on a little steel man before your take off to kill some A's.

 

[Sam1911]

I have tried a unorthodox draw and now just shooting with the natural point of aim and I dont even come close to hitting the target.

This is a bit confusing. What is an "unorthodox draw" and why would you use such a method?

This has just got me thinking some about if i was ever in a actual fire fight or feel my life is being threatened am I ever going to have the time to correctly draw my firearm or even be able to hold my firearm correctly? I might have to shoot from the hip or with my opposite hand and not even be able to use a two handed grip correctly.

You will draw your firearm however you have TRAINED to do so. This isn't an inherent, instinctive skill and a successful shooter doesn't rely on whatever eye-gun-hand coordination s/he came out of the womb with.

The draw stroke takes some knowledge (probably some training, or at least research) and lots of practice. Presentation of the gun takes practice. Proper sight picture takes practice. Trigger control takes practice.

What is "natural" for any of us may be far from what is "right," "advantageous," or "optimal." If you had infinite time and money to try every pistol ever invented, you may discover that a C96 "Broomhandle" Mauser points most "naturally" for you. But that doesn't by any stretch mean that you should choose a Broomhandle Mauser as a defensive sidearm. Similarly, the draw stroke most folks "naturally" employ is a horrendous cacophony of errors. They need to develop their understanding and skill -- and practice -- to beat their "natural" tendencies out of their system so they can present the gun fast and smooth and with a proper press-out to the target in order to hit the target predictably and quickly.

Having said that, there's nothing mysterious or "NATURAL" about support-hand shooting, or retention-shooting (what you're referring to as "hip shooting"). They are skills acquired through training and educated practice.

All-in-all, without knowing your exact equipment or experience, very few people truly need a new/different handgun in order to improve and master any of these skills. They need training and correct practice.

The reason you don't "even come close" to hitting the target doesn't have anything to do with you having the wrong gun.

Fortunately at least some introductory good training is usually a bit less expensive than a new pistol (but not always).

Where are you located? We may be able to suggest some resources you could look into that will help you a whole lot more than a visit to the gun dealer.

 

[RaceM]

Hi capacity autos just don't do it for me as they don't fit my hands well. Single stacks, like a P-38 or Luger, work better. But basically I'm a revolver guy and tend to gravitate towards wood grips that I can shape to fit me. My GP100 works pretty well with the smooth rubber grip, but I plan on eventually making my own custom wood grip for it. When the grips are right it's point & shoot, sights are already aligned. If the grip on a particular piece don't fit well a quick grab will likely have the barrel shanked off to one side, hence your missing the target.

 

[bainter1212]

I have a suggestion. Buy a laser boresighter for your Glock (one of the ones that fit in your chamber like a cartridge) and practice over and over again at home drawing and pointing, drawing and pointing, making adjustments based on where the laser is going. This will give you a feel for where you are naturally pointing the gun when you draw and allows you to make adjustments and practice maintaining those adjustments. Also saves a lot of money on ammo and range fees.
Now where your bullets are actually hitting is another story. Trigger pull problems can affect POI way more than you would think. I think everyone will agree though that a lot of practice is the key. Good luck.

 

[theflatlander]

Quote:
I have tried a unorthodox draw and now just shooting with the natural point of aim and I dont even come close to hitting the target.

This is a bit confusing. What is an "unorthodox draw" and why would you use such a method?


Quote:
This has just got me thinking some about if i was ever in a actual fire fight or feel my life is being threatened am I ever going to have the time to correctly draw my firearm or even be able to hold my firearm correctly? I might have to shoot from the hip or with my opposite hand and not even be able to use a two handed grip correctly.

You will draw your firearm however you have TRAINED to do so. This isn't an inherent, instinctive skill and a successful shooter doesn't rely on whatever eye-gun-hand coordination s/he came out of the womb with.

The draw stroke takes some knowledge (probably some training, or at least research) and lots of practice. Presentation of the gun takes practice. Proper sight picture takes practice. Trigger control takes practice.

What is "natural" for any of us may be far from what is "right," "advantageous," or "optimal." If you had infinite time and money to try every pistol ever invented, you may discover that a C96 "Broomhandle" Mauser points most "naturally" for you. But that doesn't by any stretch mean that you should choose a Broomhandle Mauser as a defensive sidearm. Similarly, the draw stroke most folks "naturally" employ is a horrendous cacophony of errors. They need to develop their understanding and skill -- and practice -- to beat their "natural" tendencies out of their system so they can present the gun fast and smooth and with a proper press-out to the target in order to hit the target predictably and quickly.

Having said that, there's nothing mysterious or "NATURAL" about support-hand shooting, or retention-shooting (what you're referring to as "hip shooting"). They are skills acquired through training and educated practice.

All-in-all, without knowing your exact equipment or experience, very few people truly need a new/different handgun in order to improve and master any of these skills. They need training and correct practice.

The reason you don't "even come close" to hitting the target doesn't have anything to do with you having the wrong gun.

Fortunately at least some introductory good training is usually a bit less expensive than a new pistol (but not always).

Where are you located? We may be able to suggest some resources you could look into that will help you a whole lot more than a visit to the gun dealer

What I consider a unorthodox draw is if my drawing arm/hand was injured I would have to cross draw with my right hand and shoot with my right hand. This concerns me with my natural point of aim with my non dominant hand/arm.

My training is minimal and just from watching videos like MPD pistol shooting. I have shot around 5000 rounds now through my glock 23. I am not very confident with my skill level and that is why I'm concerned with my natural point of aim and if I ever had to use it. I wasn't sure if some firearms point more naturally for others or if doesn't matter and its all just training. I just have hard time believing in a complete adrenaline causing situation that your not going to do what feels natural and that your training will come into play. I am not ex military or law enforcement so maybe this isn't the case since I have not yet been in a situation like this.

I live in Fargo,nd and as far as I know their is no descent training schools or course's close to this area. I would like some one on one training with good instructor for self defense and competition shooting.

 

[JohnKSa]

I am not very confident with my skill level and that is why I'm concerned with my natural point of aim and if I ever had to use it.

"Natural point of aim" means where the gun will be aiming in relation to your body positioning when you are in a proper stance, holding the gun with a proper grip and relaxed. It's a concept used to refine accuracy by keeping the body in a relaxed position rather than having the shooter "muscle" the gun onto to the target.

To find your "natural point of aim", take a proper shooting grip on the gun and assume a proper stance. Then close your eyes and bring your gun up to where it feels comfortable and open your eyes. If the gun fits you, or you've trained a lot with it, the sights will be aligned properly, and where they are pointing is your "natural point of aim" with respect to your stance and body positioning.

If you haven't trained properly, based on fundamental principles, the odds are that the sights won't be aligned properly, let alone aimed at the right spot.

The idea that you should be able to draw a gun with your weak hand and shoot it with any acceptable level of accuracy based on some sort of instinctive approach in the absence of proper training is unfounded. People without proper training or useful experience typically miss what they're shooting at, and there's no reason to assume that you would perform any differently.

Even a person who is a very accomplished shooter may not be able to make good hits with that sort of "technique" unless they have practiced extensively to achieve proficiency under those circumstances and continue to practice on a regular basis to maintain that proficiency.

I just have hard time believing in a complete adrenaline causing situation that your not going to do what feels natural and that your training will come into play.

The point of training is to make what WORKS come to feel natural. It's to repeat the right things enough using proper technique so that those things are what you do "naturally".

Trying to do what feels natural in the absence of training is a good way to develop bad habits. It's certainly not going to help you get better. At the very best it's a waste of your time and ammunition.

 

[bainter1212]

My 2 cents: find your nearest range and give them a call. I guarantee you they can set you up with a firearms instructor who can give you some key tips on what's required to give you some confidence in your shooting abilities. I can't even count how many rounds I wasted until I got a few simple pointers from a knowledgable pro. I am ex-military, and I can tell you from experience that getting those simple tips and then practicing, practicing, practicing WILL pay off in a real world situation. The reason you do something a thousand times is so that you don't have to think about it to do it anymore. When the time comes it will be automatic.

 

[joneb]

I have tweaked the grips to make the gun point naturally. It is important to me to have a point shoot capable firearm.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I just have hard time believing in a complete adrenaline causing situation that your not going to do what feels natural and that your training will come into play.

They've proven, decades ago, that what happens under pressure/stress is they you'll revert to your lowest level of training. If you don't have any training, you'll default to chaos. At this point, there isn't even a reliable way of determining if you greatest fault is alignment or trigger control

Before you can even start to work on point shooting, you have to have great trigger control...you can most easily develop this through aimed practice

My training is minimal and just from watching videos like MPD pistol shooting. I have shot around 5000 rounds now through my glock 23. I am not very confident with my skill leve

Copying what you see/observe without understanding what is happening and how it should feel in your hands is a horrible way to learn any skill. It is likely that you, in 5000 rounds, have already developed some bad habits and it will take time and ammo to unlearn them.

How closely can you keep you shots when shooting slowly and using your sights at 5-7 yards (15-21')?

 

[chris in va]

I also had natural aim problems with a g21 I had. Good gun but the grip angle was unnatural for me. My scores dropped off substantially when I tried using it at our matches, having been used to the CZ angle. I found myself pushing down the muzzle after initial draw just to align the sights.

Find a point on a wall 15' away. Close your eyes and draw the (unloaded) gun, pointing it at the spot as best you can. Open your eyes and see if the sights are fairly lined up on the mark.

My 21 had the POA about 1' above the spot.

In contrast my CZ's all line up perfectly.

 

[theflatlander]

9mmepiphany, It depends on the day really. It seems like it always varies for me and thats what I dont like at all. Some days I will be shoot close to dead center with a 3 inch group at 12 yards and others I will be low right with my group opening up to around 5 inches. I try to shoot atleast 100 rounds a week not including .22 pistol rounds. I bought the AA conversion kit for my glock to hopefully get some more time behind the trigger.

Im seriously contemplating getting a metal framed gun for the extra weight and hopefully this will help me steady myself also and help my grip. I dont know if this will even make sense but sometimes I feel as I am over gripping the gun and my muscle retention is causing me to jerk the trigger. The glock just seems so light to me I feel like I might be trying as hard as I can to grip it and its also causing more problems. I have fairly big hands. my palms are 4 inches wide and from my wrist to my middle fingers 8.5 inches. I definetly dont think my hands are to small to grip the glock correctly.

I agree I need some time with a good instructor one on one. I dont want to give up on the glock now since I have so much money invested into it and I have another g23 on lay away.

 

[9mmepiphany]

My 21 had the POA about 1' above the spot.

In contrast my CZ's all line up perfectly.

That is because you've learn/trained to straighten you wrist when grasping you gun...like holding a hammer.

Grasping a Glock is more like holding a fencing foil.

It is easier to train a novice to the handgun to grasp a Glock and point it naturally

 

[9mmepiphany]

I dont know if this will even make sense but sometimes I feel as I am over gripping the gun and my muscle retention is causing me to jerk the trigger. The glock just seems so light to me I feel like I might be trying as hard as I can to grip it and its also causing more problems.

It makes complete sense and can be quite insightful...depending on why you think this.

Over gripping is a very common error and usually causes low shots and lateral displacement...depending on where/how you are applying pressure.

Are you gripping/applying pressure with your thumbs?

The trick to diagnosing problems is by eliminating variables one at a time. If you could consistently keep all your shots inside two inches, it would be a lot easier to judge how changes to grip affect your shot placement. You really should see if you can move the target in closer to 5 yards

 

[joneb]

I had a G17 and 19 both pointed high for me, I think this had more to do with the palm swell of the grip than the grip angle. You can train yourself to deal with it but I have other handguns I enjoy shooting more.

 

[k_dawg]

I believe a key point of the 'natural' point of aim has to do with your skeletal structure.

I have to 'push down' from normal wrist flexation for a Glock style grip to be 'on target'.

 

[KenW.]

When you find the right gun for you that is as pointable as can be, point it at the target with your eyes closed. Open your eyes and the sights should be on target within a couple of tenths of a second. With that reaction speed there's no reason not to use the sights.

Controlled pairs are better than pointed double taps.

My rangemaster says "one might not be enough, and three might not be too many".

 

[WoodchuckAssassin]

The grip that has always felt best to me is the 1911 style grip. Even when it comes to the Ruger .22 pistol line, I naturally point the 22/45 better than the older Mark’s. As far as barrel length, I naturally point a 1911 Commander (4.25…or if your Springfield, 4 inches) better than a full size 1911. Since a FULL size 1911 is my primary home defense piece, I have since practiced enough with it so that my new “natural” aim is right on target.

I’ve read a little bit on in, and while there are MANY people more knowledgeable than me on the subject, what works for me is pointing both my thumbs toward the target, and wrapping the 1st digit of my left index finger around the front of the trigger guard.

Whether it’s conventional or not, find a draw and grip that works for you and PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE.

Oh, and don’t forget to PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!

 

[coalman]

The CZ 75 and 1911 line up naturally for me. Glocks not so much.

 

[beatledog7]

I come from the school of thought that says there is no "natural" POA because the human hand has not evolved with pointing a gun in mind. Evolution has not had time to favor those whose accidental genetics have resulted in a hand structure that works so much better for shooting a handgun that only (or mostly) those with that genetic advantage survive to reproduce. And given the equalizing effect of the firearm, along with human cultural aversion to the law of the jungle, such genetic changes never will occur.

What we tend to call feeling "natural" in the hand is more a matter of feeling like other things feel or reminding us of the feeling of holding something else with which we've become familiar. Gun makers, to varying degrees and to varying standards, adapt their designs to accommodate the human hand, but they all must compromise because of the infinite variety of hands. Some gun makers have stumbled upon grip sizes and shapes that seem to work better for more people, but no design will ever be "best" overall.

While I do believe that for every person some guns will be easier to get used to than others, the simple fact that people can become highly skilled at manipulating golf clubs and guitars, neither of which is ergonomically efficient, demonstrates that what is really at work--all we really have to rely on--is training and muscle memory.

 

[theflatlander]

Wow thanks for all the information guys, you are really giving me something to think about. I really need to find a instructor and spend the good part of a afternoon getting some pointers and help me assess what my flaws are and how I can fix them.

I was messing around some today trying the natural point aim and seeing where I was ending up. Well I definitely don't think its the natural POA that is my problem. My sights were close to being dead on every time single handed and were dead on when using my thumbs forward two hand grip.

I'm definitely doing something wrong at the range that is causing me to pull my shots and I cant diagnose it myself. I have tried and I just get frustrated. I need a outside view.


9mmepiphany

I have yet to figure out how to quote text on this site yet .

I was trying to diagnose my grip today also and was thinking about where I apply my pressure. Yes I am sure I was squeezing with both my thumbs at the same time. I was putting the so called death grip on the firearm every time. I shot a awesome five shot group off hand left handed last week. I am left handed btw. All five where in three inch circle at 12 yards. I went back to shooting two hands and I started shooting low again.

I'm thinking also when I am going into my two handed thumbs forward grip I am trying to extend my arms way to hard forward and rotating my shoulders forward at the same time. I am thinking I need to relax more and quit focusing so hard on trying to get back on target right away.

When ever I'm not hitting center my shots are either low or low right about 5 o'clock. I think its time to hit the range with about 500 rounds instead of my regular 100 until I can diagnose my problem and hopefully I can find a instructor to diagnose it with me.

Again. thanks for all the replies and information every one. It is much appreciated.

 

[brickeyee]

I come from the school of thought that says there is no "natural" POA because the human hand has not evolved with pointing a gun in mind.

We designed the tool (gun) to do as we want.

If you hold the gun in a relaxed comfortable manner, then open your eyes and see what the sights are doing.

It really maters at the higher levels of Bullseye.

Shooting 270 rounds over a couple days at 25 and 50 yards with three different guns single handed puts a real premium on repeatability.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm definitely doing something wrong at the range that is causing me to pull my shots and I cant diagnose it myself. I have tried and I just get frustrated. I need a outside view.

If you're pointing correctly, it is most likely your trigger that is pulling your shots off.

additional observations below

I was trying to diagnose my grip today also and was thinking about where I apply my pressure. Yes I am sure I was squeezing with both my thumbs at the same time.

Stop, neither thumb adds anything to your ability to grip and the pressure causes your shots to miss

I was putting the so called death grip on the firearm every time. I shot a awesome five shot group off hand left handed last week. I am left handed btw. All five where in three inch circle at 12 yards.

Again, Stop. Death gripping the gun will affect your ability to control the trigger. You feel you are in more control, but you're not. I injuried my support hand recently and have been working with my strong hand only grip and trigger press. I've found that my most consistent hold and trigger release...out to 25 yards on a scaled target...has been by gripping with just my middle and ring finger pulling the gun into the web of my hand. I'm not even using the finger tips...only the section between the middle and far joint.

I went back to shooting two hands and I started shooting low again.

You could also be applying too much pressure with your little finger...you're milking the grip

I'm thinking also when I am going into my two handed thumbs forward grip I am trying to extend my arms way to hard forward and rotating my shoulders forward at the same time. I am thinking I need to relax more and quit focusing so hard on trying to get back on target right away.

Using more muscles won't get you back on to target faster. That was part of the reason for the domination of fast and accurate shooting moving away from the Weaver to the Isosceles. It isn't about muscling the gun back onto target, it is about using correct grip and arm geometry to allow the gun to return to the original POA. In case you haven't figured it out by now, handgun shooting is a bit counter-intuitive

When ever I'm not hitting center my shots are either low or low right about 5 o'clock. I think its time to hit the range with about 500 rounds instead of my regular 100 until I can diagnose my problem and hopefully I can find a instructor to diagnose it with me.

I'd suggest only taking 50 rounds to the range and only shooting strings of 3-5 rounds. You can't really learn much in less than 3 rounds and don't learn much after more than 6 in a string

Don't chase rounds, just aim at the same point and try to get them all to touch by gripping and pressing the trigger exactly the same each time

I'll give you something to try, if you are willing:
1. When gripping the gun, extend both pinky fingers when pressing the trigger...it brings to light a multitude of gripping issues
2. Float both thumbs either outward or upward away from the gun...you should be gripping with only your fingers and palms.
3. Flare the trigger finger away from the frame, bending it is at the middle joint and have the trigger contact your finger behind the middle of the nail bed

 

[Inebriated]

I got a Glock shortly after I started shooting, so Glocks point most natural for me because I have a lot of trigger time behind them.