ND/AD,,,you make the call...

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I think I'm going to yak. Does it really say those things in the BHP manual? That is the dumbest think I ever heard.

Carry it locked and cocked.

Carry it with an empty chamber and the hammer down.

DO NOT DECOCK A SA GUN! The preferred method for many is after firing to dry fire the gun to lower the hammer. That way you're darn sure that it's not chambered.

Condition 2 is very dumb. Especially without a firing pin safety (old HP, some 1911's)

Any way, a BHP is fine to conceal (I manage to do a full size goverment under a t-shirt. And with a good holster (i.e. milt sparks) a thumb break is a detriment.

Glocks scare me; condition 0 all the time. So carry it cocked and locked and forget it.

And good choice of a firearm; despite the manual.
 
Let's clarify something here. When the gun is in condition 3, you shouldn't have to cock the gun to have it ready to fire. You need to manually operate the slide to load a round into the chamber, at which point your gun will be cocked already.

That is what you are referring to right?
 
And with a good holster (i.e. milt sparks) a thumb break is a detriment

Maybe to an advanced pistolero. But a thumbsnap holster is a good stepping stone to someone who is less than 'expert'. Baby steps.:D

I admit I have advanced and graduated to an open top holster with my Galco Crossdraw, which I use sometimes with no qualms...but I do still use the thumbsnap IWB more. I've thought about taking a razorknife and lopping off the strap, but have'nt yet.
 
The two most frightening sounds you'll ever hear. "...hearing a bang when you expect a click..." and, "...hearing a click when you expect a bang!"
 
An unintended act is always an accident. Negligence is usually involved, but it's still an accident.

Dude, WADR, you need to think that through some more. An accident would be like... the sear failed and dropped the hammer. the brakes failed and you couldn't stop the car and crashed.

Accident;(Websters collegiate)

c: an unexpected happening causing loss or injury which is not due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured but for which legal relief may be sought.

He pulled the trigger. His fault.

If negligence is involved, its not still an accident, its still unintentional maybe, but it definitly isnt an accident. In my mind, we flow from negligence to unintentional in that, he was adhereing to the safety rules as much as possible while performing a 'dangerous' drill (of sorts) on the range. Some things are so dangerous that you have to do it for real to get real insight into the mechanics of it. Like driving a car or shooting a gun. How many of us have never let an extra round go downrange? I know I have. I dont count those as negligent though, only unintentional.

Sorry for the diatribe but accident infers no fault of the operator and that is just not correct here.;) (We'll give him the unintentional b/c no one was hurt, but do be careful.)
 
here's my take, so far,,,

seeing how i was following the directions of the manual it would seem i was almost set up for this to happen.

i was merely practicing something new and screwed up the sequence, this is almost to be expected with something new, wouldn't you say?

which is why i was making darn sure that muzzle was safe and i was alone at the range so noone else was anywhere near being hurt should i have REALLY screwed up

i agree that including the pulling of the trigger as a part of the decocking sequence on a live chamber is not the greatest idea and is asking for trouble

further more after yet more thought it occurs to me that had my thumb slipped and the gun fired my thumb would be probably a little messed up, or at least hurting real good.

so i see that you all are taking good care of me which is greatly appreciated

should i bother ranting to browning or would i be wasting my time?

you know what they are going to say.

call it whatever you want.

how about unintentional learning experience?

and yes i was quoting word for word from the manual, there's a couple more i could throw up for all to see and disbelieve, but why beat the dead horse anymore?

oh, and yes i believe Condition 3 to Condition 1 is reached by pulling the slide, realesing it to chamber a round and then locking the safety

:D
 
i'm at the range yesterday with the hi power and i'm practicing picking up the gun off the bench, cocking, firing double taps and decocking with a round in the chamber, my muzzle was ALWAYS pointed downrangeThese are good things you were doing: practice and being safe.

now to decock is a little tricky because you have to pull the hammer back and then pull the trigger, the you lower the hammer to a half cock position (THAT IS NOT A SAFETY, INCIDENTLY) and then repeat the procedure to put the hammer in the decocked position.For years, it's been stated that the half-cock notch is only there to catch the hammer should it slip while being cocked. Normally, it will not catch the hammer if being decocked as the trigger's usually still pressed when the hammer slips. If the trigger's pressed until the sear disengages the hammer's half-cock notch and then released, it will catch the hammer should it slip. With the later Mk II and most of the Mk III pistols, it won't fired if the trigger's not in the rearward position as the sear lever doubles as an internal firing pin safety.

the gun is relatively new, so that hammer is toughThey are that and they tend to stay that way. I believe the standard factory m/s rating is 32-lbs.

anyhow, near the end of this exercise of 100 rounds i had what we call around here a brain fart

i forgot to pull the hammer back before pulling the trigger

to which the gun responded with its obligatory loud bang

scared the living doo doo outta me!!

the round went safely downrange

ND/AD,,,you make the call...

i was excessively mad at me BTW so i don't need anymore grief than i already gave myselfIt was not a negligent discharge nor accidental as you MEANT for the pistol to fire. You simply neglected to have the pistol cocked and the hammer slipped the half-cock notch, which could have been for a couple of reasons, but I don't know which. 1. The hammer/sear engagement surfaces might not be "right" and allowed the sear to move out of the notch with the trigger's being pulled. I checked this just now on 4 HPs and they don't do it. 2. Somehow the sear didn't fully seat itself into the half-cock notch and was partially out when the trigger was pressed. I've seen this with some Colt 1911 pistols.

As has been mentioned by others, I suggest carrying the Hi Power or any single-action, externally hammered automatic with the hammer back and safety on, if it's being toted for protection. If the gun's in proper mechanical condition, which cannot be assessed from a far, this has proven to be safe over the decades.
Augment that safety by using a holster that fits the pistol snugly and covers the trigger guard and thus, the trigger; most do these days.

The Browning manual is written to give them "wiggle room" in the event of a perceived accidental shooting ("The gun just went off and killed so-and-so and it was the gun's fault and not mine. Then come the lawyers and negligent death suits so Browning tried to recommend things they thought would limit their exposure. I think trying to lower the hammer over a live round just increases the chances for the gun going off when it's not wanted.

I'd leave the hammer back and the thumb safety engaged whenever a round is chambered and forward ... or back when it's empty. It doesn't hurt the spring according to Wolff's Gunsprings to be compressed as it's not being compressed beyond that for which it was designed. As with magazine springs, "wearing them out" is related to how much they're used, i.e., compressed and then decompressed. I can tell you from personal experience that you will not weaken the standard factory mainspring in a lifetime of shooting nor a constant state of "Condition One."

Some will disagree to leaving the hammer back when the pistol's not loaded and there is merit in their concerns that usually center around one mistakenly assuming it is and then carrying an empty or partially loaded pistol that they think is ready to go. I suggest that we all try and adhere to the following; it's paid big dividends for me in the past although it has offended a very few folks over the years; The only "unloaded" gun is one I've NOT set down and one I've checked. If I "lose control" of it even for a second, I check it. It doesn't matter if someone hands it to me and says, "It's empty." I check it. This has upset a couple of folks, but the risks are too great and you only have to be wrong once.

Chambering a round just before use does not put you in Condition One from Condition Three; it puts you in Condition Zero, hammer cocked and safety off. I disagree with this mode of carry as it assumes you'll have both hands free when the "ball begins." Such may not be the case. Likewise, cocking while possibly in a physical confrontation might result in the pistol being dropped.

I suggest taking an empty gun and at the range, letting the hammer go to the half-cock and seeing if the situation will repeat. If it does, I'd have a 'smith look the pistol over as there's a problem with the hammer half-cock notch and the sear.

Finally, thanks for your post. Not everyone will mention an incident such as this and I think everyone has benefited from your experience and relating it.

Best.
 
thanx steve,

fyi, it wasnt due to any mechanical mis-function of the HP, it was a mechanical dys-function on my part, i'll admit.

the gun was ready to fire, Condition 0, and instead of pulling the hammer back first, i pulled the trigger first.

just a momentary lapse in control, but obviously a dangerous one and we know that's all it takes...

but i do also feel that my being instructed by them to lower the hammer on a live round as a part of the recommended carry procedure was a big big contributing factor.

and you are all welcome for my putting my neck on the chopping block in the hopes thaat noone else here will be led down the same path and possibly injure themselves or anyone else.

and again, thanx for everyone's much appreciated input on the subject

m

:D
 
WADR = 'With all due respect'

Well, it sounds like we're mostly on the same page. Maybe our dictionaries disagree a little? In my mind, an accident implies no fault of the operator, like something mechanical breaking. This was not the case here, hence no accident. Definitly un-intentional and I'm hard pressed to be able to assign negligence to it since he was adhereing to as many rules as reasonably possible while doing the dangerous operation.

I wasn't trying to belittle you if that was even directed at me. I was just calling you on the terminology since I didn't agree with it. My apologies if I had a bad choice of words for you, (that was an accident :D or unintentional as the case may be). I was trying to enlighten you, cause of course I think I'm right , so do you...So, semantics aside, at least no one was hurt.

Maybe with all the legalese surrounding guns, I've subconciously leaned towards more precise assignations (?) of terms surrounding verbal descriptions of said event. Like all the Glock 'accidents' with fingers on the triggers, which are largely negligent, and momentary lapse of reason or not, are still negligent in the truest sense of the word. Maybe we just agree to disagree. No offense intended, just tryin to help.:)
 
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