Need .223 Technical Support

[hdwhit]

I have been reloading since 1977.

I began reloading .223 Remington in 1979.

I have used the same RCBS Reloader Special press since 1979.

I have used the same RCBS dies (standard, not small-base) since 1979. They were last adjusted in 2016 to allow interchangeability between a Savage Axis, two Ruger Mini-14s and two S&W M&P-15s. Since the 2016 adjustment, I have loaded nearly 1,000 rounds of ammunition without any problem.

Last week, I loaded 100 rounds into some PMC brass that had been processed in my typical manner (see my prior posts regarding brass processing). The brass had been trimmed to 1.753 inches. I use 1.753 since I know from experience such cases will be "lost to the weeds" before another trimming is required. Still, I do check the case length on my previously fired brass. None was longer than 1.755.

My RCBS seating die was adjusted to NOT crimp the case mouth. I have a separate die for crimping the case mouth should crimping be necessary, but it was not used in this case.

During the course of reloading these cases, eight (8) experienced collapse of the case shoulder that would prevent the round from chambering.

Can anyone offer any suggestions as to where I look to start a diagnosis of this problem?

Thanks.

 

[LiveLife]

During the course of reloading these cases, eight (8) experienced collapse of the case shoulder ... Can anyone offer any suggestions as to where I look to start a diagnosis of this problem?

Could be bad/softer batch/lot of brass.

Had similar experience ... Been reloading 45ACP for years with same dies and settings and mixed headstamp range brass without issues.

Picked up some once-fired PMC brass at the range and finished rounds wouldn't chamber. Upon close inspection, case neck collapsed and bulged the case.

Tried different headstamp brass and when I couldn't duplicate the problem, the entire batch of once-fired PMC brass got tossed for recycling. No more collapsed case neck issue since.

So try different headstamp brass and if you don't experience collapse of shoulder, toss the batch of PMC brass.

 

[hdwhit]

...Tried different headstamp brass and when I couldn't duplicate the problem, the entire batch of once-fired PMC brass got tossed for recycling. No more collapsed case neck issue since.

So try different headstamp brass and if you don't experience collapse of shoulder, toss the batch of PMC brass.

Thank you.

I have brass from no less than 26 different manufacturers. I will try a different manufacturer and see if it makes a difference.

 

[243winxb]

No lube inside the case necks?

Fl size the problem brass & check trim length. It could be a trimmer problem if using a Giraud.

Giraud -
Flipping the trimmer vertical allows you to let the brass shavings naturally drop
away from the cutter and shell holder. If you use the trimmer horizontally,
eventually you will get shavings inside the case holder. With shavings in the
case holder, the index for the case shoulder is no longer true. Your cases will
come out longer by the same length the shavings prevent the case from entering
the case holder.

Long trim length may get crimped?

 

[Cemetery21]

In addition to the above, just taking some guesses here since I've not had that issue,
1. very work hardened neck that resisted bullet seating enough to bulge the shoulder.
2. buildup/debris in the die that prematurely crimped, bulging the shoulder.
3. Someone did a glow red anneal job that softened the neck/shoulder enough to collapse when bullet seating (I did see this once on some 25-06 brass).
4. Oversize bullet that caused enough seating pressure to bulge the shoulder
5. Just bad brass?
I don't think just an unchamfered mouth would be enough resistance to bulge unless it was also #1.
Also, I assume this happened before chambering, eliminating the chance that an autoloader slammed the bullet tip into a loading ramp hard enough to bend brass.

 

[kerreckt]

Early on, I had the problem of too much lube causing shoulder problems. I cleaned the die real well and no more problems. This is the only thing that comes to my mind based on my experiences. Best wishes

 

[LiveLife]

OP has been reloading since 1977 and stated no issues reloading 1000 rounds of .223 since 2016.

I figured OP has already gone through the cycles of cleaning die internals and clearing the vent hole in the .223 die body (Unless that hasn't been done).

So when OP posted "collapsing" of shoulder with PMC brass, which I had similar problem with one particular once-fired batch (They were shot new out of factory box), I suggested to OP to try other headstamp brass.

If no issue with other headstamp brass, then we can suspect the PMC brass. If same issue with other headstamp brass, we can go from there.

 

[hdwhit]

No lube inside the case necks?

Fl size the problem brass & check trim length. It could be a trimmer problem if using a Giraud.


Long trim length may get crimped?

I have no idea what a Giraud is.

As previously stated, the brass was trimmed to 1.753 inches AFTER being resized.

As to your question about neck lubrication, I use a carbide expander (which does not require lubrication), but proceeding from an "abundance of caution", I do also lubricate the case necks when resizing.

I DO NOT lubricate the case necks a second time prior to seating bullets. I am not aware of any authority that recommends doing so. I have not lubricated the inside of case neck for more than four decades and have never had this problem (until now).

 

[hdwhit]

In addition to the above, just taking some guesses here since I've not had that issue,
1. very work hardened neck that resisted bullet seating enough to bulge the shoulder.
2. buildup/debris in the die that prematurely crimped, bulging the shoulder.
3. Someone did a glow red anneal job that softened the neck/shoulder enough to collapse when bullet seating (I did see this once on some 25-06 brass).
4. Oversize bullet that caused enough seating pressure to bulge the shoulder
5. Just bad brass?
I don't think just an unchamfered mouth would be enough resistance to bulge unless it was also #1.
Also, I assume this happened before chambering, eliminating the chance that an autoloader slammed the bullet tip into a loading ramp hard enough to bend brass.

Thank you for your reasoned approach to my problem.

1. This is a possibility I had not considered.
2. Dies may not have been adjusted for year, but they are cleaned regularly (including the little vent hole near the shoulder).
3. I got most of my brass from low-end resellers, so I had not considered that someone might have tried to anneal the brass and sold the ones that didn't meet their requirements.
4. The bullets were from Everglades. When I first started dealing with them, I put a micrometer (not a caliper) on each bullet to see the extent of dimensional variation. I found them to be highly consistent at 0.224.
5. That's what I'm hoping.

As to your final question, yes, this was discovered during the final visual inspection (I have a rigorous reloading procedure that includes a checklist of steps that must be observed to move from one stage to another - I even go so far as to weigh completed rounds to ensure everything is okay. Some people dismiss this step, but the few times I have come up with an anomoly, there has been a problem).

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

 

[hdwhit]

OP has been reloading since 1977 and stated no issues reloading 1000 rounds of .223 since 2016.

I figured OP has already gone through the cycles of cleaning die internals and clearing the vent hole in the .223 die body (Unless that hasn't been done).

Your assumption is correct.

Since I started using Hornady Unique (which seems to plug the vent hole in bottleneck dies) my dies are cleaned routinely - typically after about 200-300 rounds.

So when OP posted "collapsing" of shoulder with PMC brass, which I had similar problem with one particular once-fired batch (They were shot new out of factory box), I suggested to OP to try other headstamp brass.

If no issue with other headstamp brass, then we can suspect the PMC brass. If same issue with other headstamp brass, we can go from there.

I have already brought forth a batch of LC brass (which I regard as the "gold standard" in 223 brass) to use in the next batch.

Thank you.

 

[hdwhit]

Early on, I had the problem of too much lube causing shoulder problems. I cleaned the die real well and no more problems. This is the only thing that comes to my mind based on my experiences. Best wishes

This is not a case of excess lubrication causing shoulder problems.

This is a case of the shoulder collapsing (so that it looks as if it were wearing a Top Hat before transitioning into the case neck).

All of this brass was purchased, sorted, decapped, polished, resized (using a die with a carbide expander that had not been adjusted since the 1980's), cleaned, and primed prior to 2018.