Mr_Flintstone
Member
I can’t find H4895 anywhere, and Trail Boss, Unique, and 2400 have been unavailable for a while. What else can I use for reduced loads? I’m loading for 30-30, 8x57, and 6.5x52.
Need a powder for reduced rifle loads…
- Thread starter Mr_Flintstone
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243winxb
Member
Bullets? Lead plain base, lead with gas check, Lead coated, or jacketed?
Velocity range wanted?
Velocity range wanted?
Bearded Phil
Member
Don't know about different powders for all three but IMR 4198 is good for making light loads in lots of rifle cartridges, or high if you want.
It's probably the priciest now with the latest IMR price increases. You could try VV N120, it's similar to I4198 but slightly slower from all the GRT calculating I've done with it in 45-70.
Or alternatively Bruno's has a crazy good sale on 2400 right now. They're really backed up on shipping orders though so would probably be a month or so before they got to you. But $200 for 8lbs is damn good even with their somewhat higher hazmat, plus standard shipping & tax.
https://www.brunoshooters.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=11144
They also have a good price on N120 too.
https://www.brunoshooters.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=542
It's probably the priciest now with the latest IMR price increases. You could try VV N120, it's similar to I4198 but slightly slower from all the GRT calculating I've done with it in 45-70.
Or alternatively Bruno's has a crazy good sale on 2400 right now. They're really backed up on shipping orders though so would probably be a month or so before they got to you. But $200 for 8lbs is damn good even with their somewhat higher hazmat, plus standard shipping & tax.
https://www.brunoshooters.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=11144
They also have a good price on N120 too.
https://www.brunoshooters.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=542
Hooda Thunkit
Member
More info needed on your projectiles of choice; at least if they are lead or jacketed or plated.
However, almost any single-base extruded powder can be safely downloaded a great deal. Your cartridge choices would lead me to try 3031, or something in that burn range.
However, almost any single-base extruded powder can be safely downloaded a great deal. Your cartridge choices would lead me to try 3031, or something in that burn range.
OP
OP
Mr_Flintstone
Member
I use polycoated cast and light-medium jacketed. H4895 has been my go-to powder for this, but I’m nearly out. I’m considering IMR 4227 as an alternative to 2400 as I have lots of it. I’m up for trying others as well.
35 Whelen
Member
I've had very good luck with Red Dot and AA#7 in the 7.5x55 and 30-06-
35W
35W
AJC1
Member
30-30 and 308 is good for 4227. 4198 is great for 30-30. If you just want plinking rounds Google the load, and there is a paper for milsurps running on red dot. I think i have it if it seems a direction you want to go.
Ed Harris' article for loading cast bullets in military service rifles.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-17574.html
Or Lyman's "Historic Military Calibers" load guide.
https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php#!l=LY&i=9780016
GeoDudeFlorida
Member
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Yup. Just how “reduced” are you looking for? Ed Harris’ magic Red Dot The Load reduced or still a 100yd deer-getter but with less ouch than a standard infantry load when it goes bang reduced?
OP
OP
Mr_Flintstone
Member
I’ve been considering Red Dot for a while. Unfortunately, looking at the reliable online vendors, RedDot is just as unobtainable as most other Alliant powders.
Hooda Thunkit
Member
You are aware of Promo powder? Ballistically the same as Red Dot, available only in 8 lb jugs. Use Red Dot data by weight.
Much cheaper than Red Dot.
I use it in target and casual shooting loads in everything. Rifles, handguns, all of it.
These loads in will be reduced velocity, but because of the burn speed of Red Dot/Promo will be full pressure loads; or at least very close to it.
I can’t help with anything but 30-30, but I have 2 reduced loads for 135 grain Acme cast and coated bullets.
The best (cheapest) is based on the 30-30 “Short Range” cast load. It’s pretty common if you search either Short Range or Miniature 30-30. The Miniature load is a jacketed load. I tested between 5 and 6 grains of Winchester 231 pistol powder. I haven’t tried past 50 yards but it’s more accurate than any of my jacketed loads so far. Winchester LR primers, range brass, seated to the cannelure.
The other best (most accurate) is a low load of H335 under the same bullet. I’ve tested between 16 and 17 grains and get slightly better accuracy than the load above and higher velocity. Someone posted some cast data from Lee for reduced loads. H335 and a variety of other powders and a range of bullet weights were there. As soon as they get here I plan to try a 165 grain MBC Whitetail #4 and H335.
The best (cheapest) is based on the 30-30 “Short Range” cast load. It’s pretty common if you search either Short Range or Miniature 30-30. The Miniature load is a jacketed load. I tested between 5 and 6 grains of Winchester 231 pistol powder. I haven’t tried past 50 yards but it’s more accurate than any of my jacketed loads so far. Winchester LR primers, range brass, seated to the cannelure.
The other best (most accurate) is a low load of H335 under the same bullet. I’ve tested between 16 and 17 grains and get slightly better accuracy than the load above and higher velocity. Someone posted some cast data from Lee for reduced loads. H335 and a variety of other powders and a range of bullet weights were there. As soon as they get here I plan to try a 165 grain MBC Whitetail #4 and H335.
Remington1911
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Personally I see the loaded below spec as being as bad as loading above spec. Powder can do some funny things is real light loads. And I load a great deal of things on the soft side for several reasons.
What I do is start hunting and using published data, today you just might not find what you "want" so you might try the next "best" thing. As a general rule I will not drop below 1/2 a grain in the minimum, and depending on the powder and the notes in da book I might not even do that.
Doing this moved me to some new powders, but it is what it is, and I feel better in shooting the old guns with the lighter loads.
I am guessing youth or you just want to soften the thing up so it will be more fun and les punishing to shoot. There are lots of youth loads for 30-30. I need to do 8mm mauser as well, but am having trouble finding bullets.
What I do is start hunting and using published data, today you just might not find what you "want" so you might try the next "best" thing. As a general rule I will not drop below 1/2 a grain in the minimum, and depending on the powder and the notes in da book I might not even do that.
Doing this moved me to some new powders, but it is what it is, and I feel better in shooting the old guns with the lighter loads.
I am guessing youth or you just want to soften the thing up so it will be more fun and les punishing to shoot. There are lots of youth loads for 30-30. I need to do 8mm mauser as well, but am having trouble finding bullets.
GeoDudeFlorida
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Accurate 5744 might be the ticket. There’s published reduced rifle data I’ve used for .30-06 with good results; and, it’s available at Powder Valley.
I have read No.4100 loads in rifle very much like 2400 but haven’t tried it yet myself.
243winxb
Member
Use IMR 4895 for reduced. I have with lead GC & lite jacketed. The Hodgdon youth load info works with IMR 4895 for me.
I have a IMR 4198 reduced load for 6.5 Creedmoor. The IMR, single base powders can be down loaded. I would avoid double base powders.
Toprudder
Member
The information that I found on the Hodgdon website a few years ago indicated that H4895 could be downloaded to 60% of the published max charges for a given cartridge. I read somewhere (can't find it now) that said not to use IMR4895 in this fashion.
https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/h4895-reduced-rifle-loads.pdf
Similar information for Trailboss:
https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/trail-boss-reduced-loads-2018.pdf
5744 is also an option, there are reduced load data for it available.
https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/h4895-reduced-rifle-loads.pdf
Similar information for Trailboss:
https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/trail-boss-reduced-loads-2018.pdf
5744 is also an option, there are reduced load data for it available.
OP
OP
Mr_Flintstone
Member
Thanks all who have replied. There are two reasons behind my looking for reduced loads. One is that I really just like to shoot plinking loads. Another is that since all the above guns are quite old, I don’t want to beat them up unnecessarily. The Carcano is of particular concern because of the age of the bolt. The gun itself is a 1936 model, but looking up the serial number on the bolt, it was manufactured in 1897. Everything appears to be good and solid, but I worry about the quality of late 19th century steel.
Anyway, I may have found a solution that I already have in stock. Hodgdon lists BL-C(2) as one of their powders. I hadn’t even really considered it, but when I ran it through Gordon’s with the jacketed .267” PPU bullets, it showed that the pressure was only 23,000 psi with a starting load. It also shows greatly reduced pressure on Hodgdon’s website for my 8x57 and 30-30. I’m going to give them a try over the next few days to see how they all like BL-C(2).
Anyway, I may have found a solution that I already have in stock. Hodgdon lists BL-C(2) as one of their powders. I hadn’t even really considered it, but when I ran it through Gordon’s with the jacketed .267” PPU bullets, it showed that the pressure was only 23,000 psi with a starting load. It also shows greatly reduced pressure on Hodgdon’s website for my 8x57 and 30-30. I’m going to give them a try over the next few days to see how they all like BL-C(2).
243winxb
Member
FYI Hodgdon BL-C(2) rifle powder is a spherical powder. (BALL, double based, containing Nitroglycerin. )
Maximum loads shown. IMR 4227 .
Maximum loads shown. IMR 4227 .
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AJC1
Member
Which manual are the last two from???
243winxb
Member
Just because its listed, doesnt mean it's a good choice. Like IMR 4350 IN 30-30. I seen a guy shooting the combination. Made strange sound on firing. Had to ask him what load was.
AJC1
Member
Cool old manual. Thanks. Does it have 7.7 jap in there
243winxb
Member
Not in IMR 1999. It's in Speer #8. Sent you PM.
Hooda Thunkit
Member
Knew a guy years ago that loaded 4895 in 44 Mag.
Asked him why - he said because he couldn't get enough in the case to get in pressure trouble. Just scooped the case in the powder, jammed a bullet on top.
I stayed well away from him on the firing line.
Any medium to fast powder will work for plinker loads. W231, HP38, Universal, AA#2,5,7,9.
CFE Blk is like a slow pistol powder and can safely get you to 1700-2000 fps with 120-150g 30 cal bullets. Look up max 300 AAC Blackout loads for CFE Blk and use that as a starting point because the 300AAC case is really small. It's fast enough to act predictably in 30-30 up to 308 cases.
CFE Blk is like a slow pistol powder and can safely get you to 1700-2000 fps with 120-150g 30 cal bullets. Look up max 300 AAC Blackout loads for CFE Blk and use that as a starting point because the 300AAC case is really small. It's fast enough to act predictably in 30-30 up to 308 cases.
