Need advice before 1st AK purchase

[cameramonkey]

I've been shooting my ruger 10/22 for some time now and have decided to step up to a new rifle platform. After trying a few calibers and platforms, I think I want an AK in .223. I tried the mini-14 and wasn't wowed by it. I also shot a friend's bushmaster. It was ok, I liked the accuracy, but when I sat down to help him clean it, I was really turned off by how long and complicated the process was. Plus they seem rather expensive. So I tried his Vepr K in 7.62. Shooting this rifle was fun. It wasn't quite as accurate as the AR-15, but for my purposes and interests, it doesn't bother me. Cleaning it was a breeze in comparison to the AR.

So being completely new to the AK platform, I have a few questions before I set out to purchase. I've been reading over at http://www.ak-47.net/ to gain some basice knowledge, but I have some questions that I was hoping could be answered.

1. What are some decent brands or models of AK's? I really like his Robarm Vepr, but I didn't know if there are cheaper models that are just as good or better. I know that country of origin is important to consider as well. Are there any that I should lean towards or ones I should aviod? The Vepr is in my price range. If the Vepr K is one of the top choices, I'm eager to hear about it.

2. Does caliber affect reliability? I'd like to get one in .223. I like the fact that at least ballistically the .223 seems to have more potential for accuracy than the 7.62. Plus ammo in .223 seems more readily available in my neck of the woods and cheaper as well. But my concern is finding hi-cap magazines that will work reliably in feeding the .223 caliber. Most of the .223 magazines seem to be modified in some way or another and I didn't know if it would affect reliable feeding. On the other hand, It seems that finding hi-caps for 7.62 that feed reliably simply isn't a problem. I would rather have a rifle that's reliable over one that can shoot somewhat tighter groups.

3. Are stamped receivers good or bad?

4. Is there any other useful info to consider before I start looking? Are their other semiauto rifles that I should look at in .223 or 7.62?

Thanks in advance.

 

[femoralis]

1. Don't buy Hesse/Vulcan arms. There different good makers. You may wish to look at Arsenal, Inc or Vector Arms.

 

[Joe Demko]

The problem with .223 in an AK seems to be mainly that there weren't a great many magazines purpose built in that caliber. .223 magazines are converted from pre-existing magazines, as I understand it. How well they work would be a factor of how skillfully the conversion was done, it would seem.

Stamped receivers are neither good nor bad. They serve the purpose. The forged receiver guns are heavier.

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

I recommend the 7.62x39

Get your self a good Romanian or Yugoslavian made AK for about 300 to 350 bucks, but if you have the money go with the US Arsenal AK which will run you around 500 to 575.

7.62x39 non-corrosive ammo, 1,000 rounds for $70.00 online

Mags are plentiful and stone reliable, I’ve got all metal Chinese mags and they are built like brick ????houses.

Gadgets and gizmos are abundant for the AK, so you will have no trouble customizing your rifle to your personal taste.

Mine is a home defense gun, I’ve got a side folder (stock) for it and she sits ready, loaded with 31 reasons for any potential bad guy to find another home to pilfer.

Everyone should own an AK!!!

 

[Reed1911]

I too recommend the 7.62x39. If you really must have one in .22 cal, you need to go to the 5.45x39. The conversions over to 5.56x45 just are not as prevelent as they need to be to keep the cost down. The Romaks' are great value wise and tend to split the difference between cost and machine work.
Stamped receivers are not "bad", but milled receivers are better.
And for those of you who do use one for home/self defense; we produce frangible ammunition that lessens the likelihood of an over penetration issue both in 5.56x45 (.223) and 7.62x39.

 

[Master Blaster]

If your planning on accurately hitting small targets in competition or for fun at 100+ yards, forget any AK based arm, you will be frustrated with their inaccuracy, and the difficulty and expense of finding a good reliable sight, and mounting system taht will stay put on the siderail, for that sight.

To get a SAIGA, Vepr or any other AK to shoot as well as a cheap AR will cost you over $1000 and entail a good deal of aggravation.

Buy a bushmaster or a colt, or a Rock River arms AR or buy the lower from a local gunshop and assemble a flat top or A2 upper to it. You will get very good iron sights, ease of mounting a scope and rings, and excellent inhererent accuracy. You can do this for $7-900 depending on the configuration and Goo gahs you want on it. Dissassembling and cleaning an AR is no more difficult or time consuming than doing the same to an AK once you have done it a couple of times.

I own 2 saigas, .223, 308 and an SAR-1. They sit home in my gun rack collecting dust, while the 3 AR-15's I own get shot alot. AR-15= accurracy (accurate hits small targets from far away) and reliability, SAIGA, AK = reliable but where did that BOOLIT go (I cant hit squat with them).

If on the other hand yoou want to fire lots of cheap boolits in the general direction of some milk jugs at 25 yards and hit it some of the time an AK based arm in the $3-500 range is the way to go. :banghead:

JMHO YMMV.

To put it another way If I was in battle I hope the enemy has an AK, and I have an AR.

 

[cameramonkey]

Thanks for the responses so far. So the .223 isn't good on the AK platform?

Also, what is the general consensus of the VEPR? I've done a search and it seems to receive good marks.

 

[cameramonkey]

Thanks Master Blaster, but the AR-15 platform is out of the question. I don't feel like spending a couple of hours cleaning my rifle after I shoot it. But i appreciate the suggestion.

 

[Master Blaster]

I don't feel like spending a couple of hours cleaning my rifle after I shoot it.

What are you doing to it that takes a couple of Hours????? I clean mine in about 20 minutes.

My AKs get dirty too, and sometimes dirtier than the AR especially when shooting the 7.62x39 with the crappy dirty commie ammo, like wolf or Barnual.

You dont have to be able to lick the bolt carrier you know.

If yoou want to clean the AR real fast, keep a Mayo jar full of Low oder mineral spirits and drop the bolt carrier in swish dry and lube and its ready to go back in the gun.

I wanted to like my AKs, I'm trying real hard, but when I shoot 10 rounds at a target at 100 yards and there are no hits on the freekin paper it gets old fast.

My ARs OTH I shoot 10 rounds and I'm dissapointed if they aren't all in the 10 ring. The 8 ring is real bad.

 

[cameramonkey]

Master Blaster said:

"What are you doing to it that takes a couple of Hours????? I clean mine in about 20 minutes."

Maybe it was just my unfamiliarity with these rifles, but it was cumbersome to clean the AR for me. Disassembly took about 5 min., cleaning the bolt took about 20 min to get all the carbon fouling out, it took about 50 patches to get the barrel clean (30 min.), the upper reciever and the annoying breech face (star shaped crud collector) and gas tube took about 30 min, the lower receiver and tube was absolutely filthy (took about 20 min). Reassembly, another 5 min. Total time, about an hour and a half. All of this was after shooting 100 rounds of winchester .223 white box ammo. It was absolutely filthy. I guess it' just beacuase of the Ar-15's gas system, I dunno.

Cleaning his VEPR after 100 rounds took a bout 15- 20 min. And it was hardly as dirty. Time to disassemble, 2 min. Time to clean the lower reciever, 5 min. Time to clean the bolt and piston, 5 min. Time to clean the barrel 5 min. Reassembly, 2 min. The ammo was Wolf 7.62.

I'm not flaming the AR-15, I just think it's a little more complicated design to clean than the AK. There's no question that the AR is more accurate. I'll just be honest, I hate cleaning to take so long.

Are their any other semiauto rifle design besides the AR and the AK that might be suitable suggestions that you know of??

 

[The Grand Inquisitor]

Go with an AK-74 chambered in 5.45x39. The 5.45 round is similiar to the 5.56 round (and is also just about as cheap) and with practice can outshoot about any mil-surp rifle you can find.

Yes, I do mean that. The 5.45 AK is not going to out shoot a $4000 benchrest AR, but with practice, your will be able to outshoot other standard mil-surps not heavily modded. The 5.45 gives almost no recoil and the rifle has been re-engineered to balance with the round that you can fire 3-4 rounds quickly, accurately, before you need to re-center.

Be different - go with the 5.45.

If you are interested, PM me and I'll help you out with info and see if I can't track something down for you as well.

 

[FNFiveSeven]

in addition

You can also opt for the AR if you like less reliability than the AK, less robust construction than the AK. Not to mention the extra cleaning involved with an AR, that's a real plus what with the gas system feeding back into the bolt. Actually, now that I think about it, don't bother cleaning AK, you don't need to. In other words, if I was in combat, I'd fear the man carrying a rifle the works over a rifle that's accurate... especially since you can't exploit the accuracy potential of an AR in combat anyway (unless of course, you're one of those guys that shoots 1MOA groups off hand )

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

We have 1,001 old AR vs. AK threads if anyone would like to resurrect that subject.

We also have a recent discussion of cleaning technique.

However, if you want to help cameramonkey pick out an AK, this is the thread for you!

 

[MrMurphy]

The AK takes about a minute to fieldstrip for cleaning.
The AR takes about 90 seconds. Sometimes less.

Total cleaning for either, assuming you've done it more than once, takes about 15 minutes.



As to AKs.. the Romanian SAR-1 and WASR are good basic guns in 7.62X39mm and 5.45. The Arsenal, Inc. and Vector rifles are better-finished and a bit more accurate, but still AKs.

The VEPRs are Russian built, the highest grade generally, and cost more as a result.

As to stamped vs milled. Mr. Kalashnikov himself intended ALL AKs to be stamped. For about two or three years due to some technology-gap problems, they had to go back to milled receivers, which make the guns cost more, and weigh about 1.5lb's more (bad carrying in the field). After about 1952-55, they went back to stamped recievers in all AKs except the squad-automatic-rifle variant, the RPK, which is intended for a lot of full auto work all the time.

Most AKs off the bench at 100 yards can keep, with a decent shooter, groups inside 3". That's about as good as many military-grade M16s. The 5.45mm AKs are as a rule, more accurate than the 7.62 models.

With Poland adopting recently the "Beryl", which is a 5.56mm Nato-compliant AK, 30 round AK mags in 5.56 might be a little easier to find?

 

[cameramonkey]

Bartholomew Roberts said:

We have 1,001 old AR vs. AK threads if anyone would like to resurrect that subject.

Thanks for helping to keep this on topic.

 

[standingbear]

just out of curiousity,I read that the receiver thickness in a stamped receiver, varies between origin of manufacture....

Ive read some information on the vepr series ak and think they are worth a closer look,I like the extra reinforcing around the bolt on the receiver which the others dont seem to have,dont know if its necessary but dont think it could hurt..they dont seem to bad guns at all.the one I looked at didnt have the seperate pistolgrip but had a regular plastic stock like that seen on a shotgun.not scary looking but certainly more refined than the other stamped ones out there.

my nephew just bought a WASR10 that takes hicaps.took alil filing on the mag catch to get the mags to lock in and pop out easy but other than that,a no frills ak.not bad for what he paid,shoots good...wood handguard gets rather warm(started to smoke) as it didnt have the metal liner in the handguard that some of the synthetic stocks have.course we burned up amnmo in it as fast as we could and as long as we could hold onto it.

the arsenal of bulgaria slr series are well made if you like milled receivers.I had a slr100H at 1 time,wish Id kept it and changed the barrel.it had ruined rifling,guess it was just made that way(another story)so check the rifling before paying any money.the latest one Ive seen has new barrels and it shouldnt be a problem.


it all depends what things you consider important in selecting your ak.i.e. does it have to have a pistol grip,reinforced receiver,milled or stamped.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

I've owned a few AKs, all in 7.62x39. My current rifle is a Bulgarian made SLR-101 SG from Arsenal, Inc. Fit and finish on it is comparable with any military style rifle I've ever owned, and better than most. Unfortunately I haven't shot this one yet (range was closed last Friday :banghead: ) but by many accounts, it isn't unusual for Bulgie AKs to give 2 MOA groups.

I previously owned a Romanian SAR-1. The fit and finish weren't in the same league as my Bulgie, but the functioning was just fine.

Based on personal experience, I'll second the advice to avoid rifles made by Hesse/Vulcan. I had a Saiga Sporter they converted to pistol grip format and to take regular AK mags. The fire control parts they used were too soft, peened, and I had to replace them because after ~200 rounds, the gun ceased to function. After I replaced the Hesse junk the rifle worked fine. But who needs the hassle? (I gave this rifle to a friend last week in payment for some carpentry work at my house.)

Chinese AKs generally work very, very well, although like the SAR-1s, accuracy isn't up to the standards of the Bulgarian rifles. Neither is fit and finish, with the possible exception of the Polytech Legends, which are pricey.

AKs in 5.45x39 are nice to shoot but ammo isn't as common as 7.62x39 or .223. You'll probably have to get it online or at a gunshow, unless you have a well-stocked gun store nearby. If I wanted a .22 caliber AK I'd get one in .223 and just get some good mags.

FWIW I also own a Colt AR-15A3 Tactical Carbine, which is my second AR-type rifle (first was a Bushmaster Dissipator). Cleaning an AR is more involved than cleaning an AK, but contrary to Internet and gunshop commando myth, AR-15s do not need to be spotless to be reliable. (Oh and by the way, you should not clean the gas tube in an AR-15. It's self-cleaning.)

 

[wally]

I'll try to talk you out of a .223 AK.

Stick to the calibers it was designed for -- 7.62x39 or 5.45x39. Honest .223 mags are hard to come by and usually overpriced when you do find them.

5.45x39 mags work in some guns but not others, I know, I have a Norinco .223 AK (works) and a Romanian that doesn't.


Wolf .223 and 5.45x39 ammo costs the same around here. 7.62x39 runs $20-30 cheaper a case. Any other .223 ammo will cost more than Wolf.

--wally.

 

[cameramonkey]

Well it's starting to look like the Vepr K in 7.62 is making it's way to the top of the list. I like the 16 inch barrel, but would a 20 inch barrel be that much more accurate?

 

[Tomac]

VEPRs: Excellent quality but (IMHO) too heavy for AW calibers (7.62x39, 5.45, 5.56).
AK accuracy: varies a great deal. My SLR-95s (7.62x39) would do honest 2" groups at 100yds all day from a rest w/a scope. My ORF-built AK-74's will easily hit the 300m gong all day (haven't tested them for group size yet).
Caliber: I'm a 5.45 fan. Mags/parts are cheap & plentiful, less recoil than 7.62x39 and ammo is plentiful through mail-order.
Optics: If you can't get your AK optics to stay on the siderail then you haven't adjusted the clamp properly. My NDM-86 Dragunov uses the siderail & it shoots sub-moa all day w/o loss of zero or scope movement. There are many optics options available for an AK w/an optics siderail. PK-A, PK-AV, PK-23, PK-01, PK-01V, Kobra, PK-AS. My personal fav is the PK-AS because it doesn't need batteries for daytime use, sits low/left so irons are always available for backup, excellent dot/circle reticle for CQB/precision aiming, & very rugged (I accidentally dropped one 4.5' onto concrete w/o damage or loss of zero). I like the PK-AS so much that I now have it mounted on all my AKs & Saiga shotguns.
Tomac

 

[jefmad]

If you want to stick with .223 I would suggest getting either an AR-180B or a Kel-Tec SU-16. Both take AR-15 mags but have gas systems with an operating rod (no direct impingement of gas). As a bonus they both cost less than an AR-15.

 

[Intune]

SAR-1 7.62x39. Takes a lickin' & keeps on tickin'. Cheap ammo, mags. Got mine for $285.00 but they've gone up a bit. Not a 1 moa shooter but then again, neither am I without a bench. Minute of milk jug @ 100yds all day long. Try it, you'll like it!

 

[hartzpad]

Master Blaster, you must not be a very good shot with any of your AK's, because I own 2 Saigas in 7.62x39, and two VEPR's (7.62 and 5.45) and I can hit small targets downrange just fine. In fact, they have been 100% reliable (which is more than I can say for two of my friends' AR-15s). I find your description of the accuracy of Ak's to be very exagerated. My VEPRs (especially the 5.45) on a good day can get down around 1.5" MOA. Definitely AR territory.

 

[Master Blaster]

Yep your right, I'm a terrible shot with all of my AK clones, But a very good shot with every other type of firearm I own from revolvers to .22lrs, to the AR-15's even with iron sights only.

AKs all shoot like crap for me.

Must be me, AKs just dont fit me or shoot well for me consistantly. Surely couldn't be the accurracy of my AKs.

 

[Risasi]

Master Blaster,

Maybe look into dropping one of those Kreb's peep sights onto one of your AK's?

You'll have to adjust the front sight accordingly, but then it would be just about like shooting your AR?

Dunno, I just pulled that out of my butt, I have no personal experience. Although I have heard favorable things about the Kreb's sight on Saiga-12.com and ar15.com (the AK forum)