Need Help on Colt's 1851 Navy

[Resist Evil]

I went turkey hunting at a friend's property in April and after the day's vain efforts, my friend brought out this .36 caliber cap and ball revolver at the dining room table. I asked if he'd contacted Colt's about researching it's background. He said Colt's said it would cost $300. He is a man of small means these days and he's not sure about whether the cost is justifiable or not, if it's not really worth anything.

So, I said I know some guys who might be able to provide a ballpark value.

I am not experienced in placing a value on the condition of a piece, but based upon the very good bluing, lack of scratches, silky smooth action, stocks without prominent dings, but with the unfortunate dings around the action/barrel/cylinder(?) release like someone was banging on it to get it to move.

There is engraving on the cylinder of sailing ships and the words "engaged May 16, 1843" engraved in small letters at the forward end of the cylinder.
I googled the date and found that Colt's engraved some revolvers honoring the victory at the Battle of Campeche.

On the top strap, engraved are these words: "Address Col. Sam- Colt New York US America."

I would appreciate it if some of you could find the time to suggest some kind of value to this revolver. Anything you suggest will be appreciated. Thank you.

This is an update to a thread I started in April this year.

I now have some photographs of the revolver. My desire with this effort is to be able to suggest to the 78 year old owner that getting a letter from Colt's might be worth the money or not based on your help deciding the likelihood of authenticity.

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These are all of the photos I have. Is there enough evidence to surmise that this is the genuine article and a letter from Colt's is the next step?

 

[HexHead]

I'm going to guess that's a 2nd gen dating to 1973 or after. Especially since it has a serial number such as required by the GCA of 1968.

 

[DPris]

1968 has nothing to do with it. An original Colt Navy would have a serial from any period of manufacture.

Not an 1800s manufacture.
Proof stamps are not correct & the finish isn't appropriate.

May be a later production gun, if Colt at all.
What barrel markings does it have, including any under the ram lever?
Denis

 

[Resist Evil]

I looked under the ram lever and saw nothing.

The barrel is unmarked.

 

[DPris]

There are no Colt markings anywhere on the barrel?
Not a Colt of any generation. The grips show Italianesque varnish.
Denis

Add: Re-read your opener, you say the "topstrap" is marked Address Co. Sam Colt.
There is no topstrap on that gun, assume you mean the top of the barrel, which is what I was asking about.

With that finish, those proofs, and the varnished grips, I'd put it as a repro. If Italian, older one. For some years now the Italians have required a "catalog" number stamped on exports.
I have a late 1960s Navy repro that predates that requirement & it has only an unheard-of "maker" name stamped on it.

Over the years, additional stampings have appeared in various locations on Italian Colt repros, including some hidden under the ram.

If that gun has none of those, it's probably late 60s or early 70s.
I don't have a list of Italian proofs, but I'd bet that's what those are on the gun.
Colt didn't put 'em on theirs.

Value is whatever somebody would be willing to pay.
Not a Colt.

 

[Resist Evil]

There were no markings on the barrel. The only Colt's markings appear on the top strap as noted above.

I would have borrowed the gun to bring home while I posted this, but I believe it is now illegal to do without a background check. Access to it is over 200 miles away with very little online access. I couldn't even have this forum conversation over my smartphone from there.

I'm going to have to tell my friend that it appears unlikely that this revolver is authentic.

I really appreciate the help. Thank you.

 

[rcmodel]

Again, like DPris said, the gun does not have a top strap, so there can't be an address on it.

It's got to be on the top of the barrel if anywhere.

And I also agree the two proof marks on the barrel flat are not something Colt did.

It's an Italian repro of some kind.
Not an antique Colt.

rc

 

[DPris]

Evil,
There is no topstrap on that gun.
The topstrap is the section of frame on a revolver that extends from the front of the frame to the rear of the upper frame, ABOVE the cylinder.
It ain't there on that design.
Is is on the Peacemaker, but not on the Navy.

Good thing your friend did not waste any money on a Colt letter.
It's not merely "unlikely" it's not a Colt...
Denis

 

[DPris]

RC,
It also has a proof on the cylinder in one of the photos, another non-Colt marking.
Denis

 

[Resist Evil]

Re: the top strap, I was wrong for sure. The marking is on top of the barrel at the rear.

I appreciate the help and I apologize for hampering your efforts to help by my poor efforts to provide proper details.

 

[DPris]

Just wanted to be clear so we had the necessary details to converse efficiently.
There were other European Colt repros, but that reddish grip varnish was & is very common to the Italians, particularly Uberti.

Value may be anywhere from $75-$100, depending on who might want it & how badly.
Denis

 

[Resist Evil]

I appreciate your efforts.

 

[Rom828]

Don't be too discouraged. it's still a neat pistol, just not a gold mine. One of your posts mentioned a background check, not neccesary, Cabelas will send you a new one in the mail. In other words, thats an antique type pistol that the BATF has no interest in.

 

[DPris]

He lives in Denver.
ATF is not the problem.
Denis

 

[Resist Evil]

Under our new laws, I believe there cannot be a transfer of a firearm without a background check, even for a temporary borrowing.

The value really doesn't seem to be the issue, but its authenticity before he passes it down to a relative.

 

[DPris]

And now he knows.
Not much real intrinsic value, no antique, no collectability, no Colt.
How did he acquire it? Hopefully nobody misrepresented it to him if he bought it.
Denis

 

[Jim K]

Repro? Italian? You guys have to be kidding.

That gun has been re-blued so the parts that should be color case hardened are blued, but it is otherwise quite good. It is a post-war gun, probably from 1866, or maybe early 1867. The marks on the barrel and cylinder are London proof marks, but the gun is far too late to have been made there.

I know of no place within the U.S. where that gun is not considered an antique and free from sales or registration restrictions.

I would WAG a value in that condition at around $3000.

Jim

 

[DPris]

I disagree.
It does not add up. The clean stampings show no signs of buffing as part of a re-blue. Colt never added (to the best of my knowledge) that reddish varnish.
The majority of London 51s had steel gripframes & had London markings on the barrels. As you note, the serial would be 1866-ish if genuine, after the London operation was shut down.
Can you direct me to images of genuine Colt 51s with that long of a barrel address?

If a genuine Colt, I can't see a re-finish of both steel and wood bringing $3000.

Denis

 

[Ash]

I have a Colt 1849 that is original - bought by my great great grandfather Daniel Davis in Camilla, Georgia, after which he walked to Forsyth, enlisted at 14 years old, and then marched to Atlanta for that famous battle - and while this revolver doesn't feel exactly right, it seems far older than from the 1960's. Did the Italians forge Colt markings beyond the cylinder roll-stamp? I had an Italian 1856 but don't remember. I do have a Pietta Remington and it doesn't replicate the Remington markings. I know counterfeiting happens, but this feels different. I suppose holding it in the hand would make more of a difference.

 

[Jim Watson]

Colt SN lookup says 1866.
Flayderman shows that barrel address for that SN range.

The proof marks do not look like any Italian I have seen.

Reblued with blue in the pits and dents and boogered screws, just not buffed hard.

I can't say it is original but it is not the typical reproduction.

 

[Coyote3855]

I can't offer an opinion as to the authenticity of the revolver. However, thank you for providing excellent pictures. A refreshing change from the guy with 2 posts who says: "I have this old gun. What's it worth?"

 

[Resist Evil]

I can't offer an opinion as to the authenticity of the revolver. However, thank you for providing excellent pictures. A refreshing change from the guy with 2 posts who says: "I have this old gun. What's it worth?"

I've read other threads wherein were the requests for photos to help with identification of a firearm. In my original thread in April, I failed to have photos because I wasn't smart enough to remember that my cell phone is equipped with a camera at the time I was at the gentleman's home the first time I saw the gun. I tried getting some information here in spite of that shortcoming back in April, but it still came down to needing pictures to proceed anyway, so I had to wait until I had the opportunity to get back over to his place armed with my cheapie Nikon Coolpix.

 

[DPris]

Jim,
Shows that exact long barrel marking?
I was giggling for images & couldn't find any 51s that showed the full address as described.
And do you have a source that clearly shows those proof marks to be British?

The pitting's obvious, but the engraving & other marking are much sharper than an original Colt would typically have concurrent with that pitting.
And the frame's edges don't look very clean, quite similar to my 1969 Italian 51 Navy workmanship.

As to the Italians "forging" Colt markings, I have a REMINGTON repro with the COLT address stamped on its barrel. Acquired it new in 1989.
Over the years, the Italians have done all sorts of markings on their copies. Remember, they started them in the late 1950s, before laws governing such things were as strictly enforced as they are now.
Denis

 

[DPris]

In a half hour of Internetting, I can't find the proof stamp on both the cylinder & barrel in either British or Italian proof tables.
Or anywhere else.
Denis

 

[kBob]

First the best place for info on this is the Black powder section.......

What bothers me about this gun is the second picture which shows the left side of the gun. I blew this image up 400 percent and looked it over. There is uniform pitting around the action screws and then a smooth area that extends to about the front of the cylinder and then the pits pick up. This looks an awful lot like someone defarbed a reproduction before refinishing it. That is they removed the Italian markings that would likely be there on a reproduction colt assembled in Italy (some of the kit guns lack even those). At least on my screen there appears to be the faint outline of a proof year box pretty much dead center of the area that appears to have been modified. This may be simply the lighting, but it would cause me to think this was not jake........

Take it to the Black powder section and let them look it over.....

-kBob