Need Help Starting a Milsurp Collection

[KDS]

I want to start a milsurp collection and am looking for advice. There seem to be so many rifles out there and some have more historical significance than others. Basically I want all the rifles I get to be shooters, in decent shape but not pristine by any means. Definately suitable for display and a day at the range. I know some are hard to find and others are readily available and cheap.

So far I want an M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, Mosin Nagant, 1903A3, and 1917 Enfield. What else would you add to the list? What Mausers or other Enfields would you get? Any suggestion on price ranges would be helpful as well.

Also, can you recommend and good references for reading up on particular rifles or collecting milsurp in general? Thanks.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

Here is my advice. (as someone who has not always followed it). You may do well to limit your collection by some parameters. American rifles of WW2, or your pick of the other powers involved. If you want a general collection it might be best to go with the most common, issue rifle of each of the major countries involved. US = M1 Garand & Carbine, Germany = 98k Mauser, Russia = M91/30, Japan = Type 38 or Type 99, England (& Colonies) - Enfield Mk3 or Mk4. Otherwise you will find that there are variations, oddities, and many more guns that cost a lot that you may or may not find. If you have some $$$ then forget all of this and get what you want. A general rule, for your collection is that try to find the best condition you can. The gun must be original for most collectors (Other than period modifications, like duffle cuts, capture marks, etc.) A nice shooting 98k that was sporterized wont turn any heads with other collectors. I personally follow the gerneral collection. I would snap up an odd ww2 rifle if presented with a great deal, but I dont have the funds to buy every varriation of each countries rifle. I actually prefer to find the absolute most common, rifle of the type. I have a Mosin Nagant from 1942. Its an "Izzy". That year and maker were the peak of production. But that also means (To Me) this is exactly the kind of gun, most Soviet Soldiers would have recieved. Other things to be carefull of, are the losing side late war rifles sometimes become dangerous to shoot. Both Japanese and German late war rifles saw big quality declines.

 

[DougW]

I started collecting many years ago, but have pared the collection down to my Enfields, one K98 Mauser, M1 Garand, and a couple of other "gunsmith" specials that have no collector value. I sold off all the Moisin-Nagants, the Finnish MN, the VZ24's, and other stuff that I lost interest in. I agree with Ohio Gun Guy in specializing. The first thing you really need is lots of money, then lots of patience!

 

[The_Pretender]

First off, I must say awesome! I am glad you can do something like that. I wish I could.

I have several guns in mind that I want to own, and I periodically update the list. I find that when I revisit the list weeks/months later, there are things on it I don't want after all. Or when I actually get my hands on it, I change my mind. Naturally, there are plenty that are no question must-haves. And no question never-haves. But I get super anal retarded over it. I will read every thing I can, watch youtube videos, read forum posts, magazine articles, talk to people about it, scour them at gun shows, etc. etc. I know I am not unique with this, just giving you an idea of my approach.

Years ago I collected what I considered to be the best Super Nintendo game collection. I would get games "just because" of what they were, or that they "go along" with other things in the collection, or that they "fill a gap" or "round out" a genre. There were quite a few I didn't really care to play. Or even own. But I had them just to have. So now that I am pursuing guns more actively, and that they are more expensive, I am taking my time to do it right the first time. I never want to get a gun and sell it or trade it. I haven't yet. I feel every last one is a winner. I came close to wanting to rid myself of one- but after a year of aches and pains, I came out with exactly what I wanted. And it means all the more to me for it.

I think you will do well to take your time with it and get what appeals to you. I wouldn't get every last gun from a certain group, just to round out the group. Some rifles cost large amounts of money. That ties up a lot of cash for something you don't enjoy, but have just to have. Money that could be spent on getting something you like, or more ammo for what you have already.

To simplify- do this for yourself. Having what you want, knowing it through and through, and being able to drop the knowledge about it will be far more impressive than just owning it. That five minutes of showing someone something won't always equate the cost, heartache, stress etc. of locating/fixing/acquiring a certain piece. This time around, it's all about you.

Don't let outside sources dictate your parameters. Dictate them yourself. After all, it's your time and money. And if you do want it all just to have, more power to you.

Hope this helps.

 

[Tim the student]

Sounds cool.

One thing I can tell you is to look into the CMP, and to get a carbine quick.

 

[SCPigpen]

Get your C&R. It is not hard and unless you have a checkered past you should have no problem. Getting guns mailed to your door is the best thing since sex.

 

[KDS]

Thanks for the replies so far. To be more specific, I want as many of the significant US rifles as I can get and afford. My list so far is

M1 Garand - plan to buy from CMP
M1 Carbine - hope CMP will get some more service grades
M1903A3
M1917 Enfield

Are there any others that you would consider for US battle rifles? Maybe one of the lever guns used by the Army to tame the west?

For Russian rifles, I want all three Mosin Nagants, the 38, 44 and 91/30 I believe. They aren't expensive and are fun to shoot.

I would like a WWII Japanese rifle since my grandfather served in the pacific. I know nothing about Japanese rifles so any information there would be great.

For European rifles, definately WWII era is what I am looking for. Mausers are interesting to me so I am thinking about a k98 or others.

In terms of cost, I have an affinity for Sig pistols so in comparison, I am hoping this collection will cost less. I am looking for rifles in the $400-700 range. To use the CMP rating, service grade or above for all. I like the history of the marks and nicks in the stocks, but they absolutely have to be shooters with good bores.

Bottom line, I am going to take my time, what would be helpful is a list of models that I can research, that way as I hit the gun shows, I can take a list of rifles that I may be interested in. You never know what you are going to find at a show. The order I buy them in isn't important.

 

[SCPigpen]

Don't forget the Krag, Trapdoor, No4 enfield.....

 

[Tim the student]

M1 Carbine - hope CMP will get some more service grades

Me too, but I think the word on the CMP forums is that they will run out of all carbines soon. Not sure if Orest has said that or not. I think he has, but I couldn't find the thread.

Of course, I may be mistaken, and the word may be wrong.

 

[The_Pretender]

what would be helpful is a list of models that I can research

If it were me, and assuming anything from the turn of the century through the Cold War is ok: (I don't know if all of these are obtainable, just some I can think of)

USA
Browning M1918
M1A
Thompson Submachine gun
M3 Grease Gun
M1941 Johnson (good luck )
Winchester 1897 - not a rifle, but really bad ass and would fit in nicely

UK
Bren LMG
Enfield No. 4
Enfield No. 5

Japan
Arisaka Type 38
Arisaka Type 44
Arisaka Type 97

Germany
Gewehr 43
Gewehr 98
StG 44

USSR
SKS
AK-47
Dragunov
SVT 40
Mosins

 

[SCPigpen]

Thats a good list, Pretender!

 

[nathan]

K 31 and Swedish M 96 mauser are must haves.

 

[Carter]

An original unmolested sks with wood stock is always a nice starting point. Most of the one's I've seen and shot are still "battle worthy".

If you ever run across a Johnson rifle, grab it then and there. Those things are pretty sweet and rare.

I'd come up with a category to collect though. Semi vs bolt. Russian vs American or British. But random is always nice too.

 

[Cosmoline]

For Mosins in your price range, don't bother with USSR models right now. The ones to get are Finnish, esp. pre-war, and also some of the nicer eastern block models such as the Polish M44's.

 

[leadcounsel]

Welcome to the club. Unfortunately you may have arrived too late. Many of the rifles you want will be either hard to find or the price has gone up drastically in the last few years. The Mausers, K31s, and MN carbines have dried up and gone way up in price.

Quickly get your C&R and get moving!

Aim surplus has 1903s (refurbed) now.

 

[aka108]

If you can find one, a Peruvian 1909 Mauser.

 

[Storm]

Here's how I started. I began by collecting a rifle from each of the major combatants of WWII. That was the Garand, Enfield, Mosin Nagant, Mauser, Arisaka, Carcano, MAS 36 (sort of). Then, the Mausers started to mutiply as did the Garands and Enfields. Then, it branched out into other milsurps like the M1 Carbine, Swedish 96 and M38, Steyr M95, Spanish Mauser 1916 short rifle and Mausers of different origins and more recent vintage to now the K31. But, starting with the classic milsurps of the major WWII combatants provided a sound basis from which to branch out and fill in with different variants of the basic rifles. My collection is now far my broad from its orginal theme, but that was the plan anyway.

 

[Storm]

Oh, and a few other recommendations.

Carry a bore light in your vehicle. You never know when you are going to run across a possible milsurp acquisition, and a good look down the bore is going to tell you a good deal. It seems that a lot of shops don't have them to use (I wonder why?!).

Also, having an Internet connection on your phone can be a fantastic resource. Many times I've stood right there in the shop (or I go out to my car if I am willing to put the rifle down for a moment) and look up info on a possible acquistion right then and there. I can get info as to markings, variants and desirable/undesirables to look for in deciding to buy the rifle. I can quickly jump to Gunbroker and get a general idea as to market value. I've also used a phone Internet connection to verify the availablity and price of any parts that might be necessary to restore the rifle to workable and/or original condition. You never know what you will run across and having the Internet at your fingertips is a huge advantage. Once I have a possible milsurp in hand I don't like to put it down again while I run home to do research as there is a chance that it won't be there when I get back. I've seen someone put a rifle down only to have someone immediately pick it right up and buy it.

Shops don't always know what they have, and we can't always know what we need to know to make the right decision, so to have such a resource as the Internet at your fingertips puts you in a great postion, especially with milsurps.

 

[Gelgoog]

Here are my suggestions:

Start with CMP, get yourself an Garand, Eddystone M1916 and M1 carbine.

You will find a 1903 on gunbroker.

avoid going to the surplus sites because they only have the generic crappy milsurps. Avoid the german 98k, spanish mausers, VZ24 and yugo 24/47 and especially turks. These are all the bottom of the barrel as far as mausers go. Go on gunbroker and find South American, Swedish or persian mausers( these are best mausers ever made in terms of craftsmenship and are usually in VG+ shape. The Yugos M48s are as close as you can get to an german 98k but can be found in unissued condition.

Lee-enfields and jungle carbines are probably the most fun milsurp to shoot, so definitely get one of each model.

I would avoid the russian mosin nagants, but if you must get one then get a finnish model...however I would still leave it to the last of your collection.

If you must get a mosin then get a Finnish nagant as they are much higher quality. I would also pick one of these up last

 

[wrench]

Well, another opinion...
Definitely get a Garand from the CMP. The 1903 and 1917 US rifles are also fun to shoot, and generally accurate.
As far as Mausers, I like the long ones best, Swedish, Persian, Argentine, German, there's even some beautiful old Turks out there.
Mosins are still relatively inexpensive, look at Finnish models for better quality.
Swiss rifles are wonderful shooters, SKS's are fun and common.
In other words, there's a lot of choices out there, look around and study, hold a lot of rifles to decide what you like, then get used to eating ramen noodles and PB&J to pay for them!
Go over here:
http://forums.gunboards.com/
where a lot of the milsurp rifle folks are, and Good Luck

 

[KDS]

Thanks all for your comments so far. I have requested the forms from the ATF for my C&R license and will fill those out as soon as I get them. After doing a lot of research I have a few thoughts.

One, I am interested in both rifles of historic importance and those that are just fun to shoot. For instance, it seems that the Czech VZ-24 or Yugo 24/47 are not that popular for collectors but can be had for relatively inexpensive prices and in really good condition. These look like guns I would really enjoy taking to the range but not rifles I would plan to display. I think I would learn a lot about milsurp rifles by picking up one of these.

Two, I think I have totally missed the boat on a good M1 Carbine at a good price. I plan to get one anyway since this is the rifle my grandpa carried in WWII and I want one. To get one that would be considered CMP service grade, what would a good price be and where would you look? I plan to hit all the local pawn shops to see if I get lucky.

Third, why in the (insert beep here) did all these people screw up krags by sporterizing them? Does it make sense to try to pick up a sporterized krag and one with a decent stock with a bad bore and try to combine the two? Do people do this?

Four, it has only been a few days, and I have the disease! Is there any way to increase the bank account to pay for all these?

Thanks guys, keep the advice coming!

 

[wrench]

If you are patient, read up and keep your eyes open, you will find a nice shootable M1 carbine for $6-$700. It won't be a perfect collectors rifle, but you can find CMP service grade rebuilds in that price range.
Re: the Krags-many years ago when these were surplused, they were cheap, and no one thought anything of sporterizing them to make them 'better'.
Makes us cry to see them now, but that's the way it was.
I see several nice mod 98 Krags around here every year for $7-900. They are beautiful, graceful shooters, mine are accurate as heck.
Here's mine

 

[RP88]

look into a K31 and/or K11

 

[Col. Plink]

What a nice thread! Well, except for the disparaging comments about VZ-24's... I have one probably only because my cousin had a really well-preserved Nazi contract one that he sold me for a great price.

Which only goes to prove what others have said: become knowledgeable and base your buying decisions on condition and THEN what can be said about it collectibility-wise. For instance, my VZ-24 has a mismatched bolt but is in fantastic condition and considered to be one of the best versions of possibly the most tried and true battle rifles ever. I'd never bought it in les than the condition it's in however...

That said, I'll echo what has been said above about the CMP except I will add "GO THERE YOURSELF AND ENLIST THE HELP OF THE STAFF!" you may not need to go Service Grade+ if you go that route: there ARE better-than-service-grade Garands out in there in rack grade clothing... As for 30carbines, yours is the only reason I can see for paying for one...

Mosins? A buddy of mine has a Tula pre-war 200+yd (IRON sights) shooter he got for $100. What's not to love? (except the looks...)

As for the SKS I say go w/ an old school Yugo (M59, that is) or Romanian or Russian.

I also have a Hakim 8mm but, well, you know, I, uh, yeah, (ahem)...


Just get what you want and screw everybody who says different!

 

[Hatterasguy]

All the old rifles are fun to collect, I love owning a little part of history. I have a few and I'm slowing adding to it.

I shoot my Mosin the most because ammo is cheap. You need a 2x4 to work the bolt though. I'd highly recomend buying a Mosin first, they are very cheap fun.

My K31 is like a Swiss watch, the action is like butter. The Swiss know how to machine a gun! I'd highly recomed getting a K31 or K11 the quality and accuracy is extremly high! GP11 is the most accurite military issue ammo ever made.

My FN49 is a real piece of old world craftsmanship. They don't not make rifles like that anymore! At least not for under $1k.

Lastly I have an M1 carbine that I inherated from my grandfather. I hardly shoot this because ammo is pricey and its a part of family history. He carried it in the Pacific to Japan. However when I do its a treat, the M1 carbine is a sweet shooting little rifle. I'm tempted to buy another one to shoot because it is very enjoyable.