Need help with frame scratches and parkerizing.

[CZCCW]

Hi: New to the forum. I recently bough a CZ 75 PCR compact. After careful dissasembly ,cleaning , etc went to the range and shot 150 rounds and came back and upon dissasembly found a long and marked scrath in the inner frame just in the area below the recoil spring. I called CZ ,email ,sent pics etc and they didnt care much for it. I went to 2 different CZ forums looking for someone with a similar problem and a solution and they started bashing me for not accepting that a brand new gun should not be constantly scratching the frame under normal use. None of my other guns do. Cz does not apply the polycoat to that area in the inner frame so the only thing you can see is the gray parkerizing. I work in the aviation industry with T6 aluminum everyday and other alloys and contrary to what many people say , aluminum alloys do get corrosion, only pure aluminum dont get corrosion. Normally T6 or any structural grade aluminum alloy have a coating of pure aluminum to avoid this,or in the CZ case, a parkerizing treatment before the polycoat to protect from corrosion. So in my case, this parkerizing is going away in the areas were this scratches are forming. I know that if I leave it like that , with time and use I will have a very ugly area full of scratches and the parkerizing gone. I used the gun for another 100 rounds and another ugly deep scratch in the same area ,this time on the side. CZ spring on this area is flat , not round. And the guide rod is plastic. I noted that when the spring is compressed it may actually touch the frame and cause this. I ordered a Wolff round spring and an aluminum guide rod that I plan to put in as soon as I get it. Now...for my real gunsmithing questions:

1.If there any low cost parkerizing method for that area? It is a small area and instead of sending the gun to CZ (who didnt even care when I called them and gave me really bad service) I want to put some type of coat after I change the spring and rod to prevent further deep scratches.

2.If there any room temperature polycoat that I could apply after the parkerizing to match the original polycoat? As I explained before, CZ dont polycoat this area , so I just want a light coat of extra protection and something that will make it look better .

3 I have available alodine/syncromate treatment at work for aluminum surfaces, but would like something that is more like the parkerizing treatment that they put on the factory. I saw some parkerizing spray at brownells , but I dont know how durable or effective it may be, any suggestions from someone who has done this kind of work will be appreciated

Thanks for any help in this matter. If anybody that respond just want to bash out because Im being too picky in your opinion, please refrain from answering. I dont need fanboy answers as I already got them . I want someone with knowledge to help me fix my problem. Im not bashing the gun , just telling things like they happened to me and being proactive to fix my situation. Thanks again for any help and keep up the good work.

 

[Badlander]

If the part is parkerized it is not aluminum. you can not park aluminum.

 

[45_auto]

Not a CZ fanboy here, don't own one, don't want one. But you do have a lot of misinformation on materials.

Your frame is aluminum, but it isn't parkerized. I would guess that it's probably hard anodized. Parkerizing is a conversion process for steel. Won't work on aluminum.

If the recoil spring is rubbing on the frame, there is no finish that you can put on it that won't immediately wear off. None of the magic paints, coatings, fish oils, etc, are as durable as the original finish on the inside of your frame.

It's not a big deal, your grandkid's grandkids will be dead before any corrosion due to those scratches could possibly become a problem. That's why CZ wasn't worried about it. Kind of like worrying about where the finish wears off the frame guide rails from the slide. It doesn't matter.

If you don't like the scratches on the inside of the gun, sell it and buy something else. You're wasting your time worrying about it.

 

[CZCCW]

Thanks for the responses. I called CZ and they told me they just put polycoat and nothing else on this gun. I already had read that aluminum can not be parkerized but tought maybe being an alloy would make a difference, because Brownells sell a product that have "parkerizing gray " in the name and it says it works on aluminum but it turns out is just a paint with that name. Also on the CZ website it says that their guns have a phospate coating before the polycoat and hence the question. Again ,.. I dont want advice about getting rid of the gun or bashing. I am asking for someone that had deal with coatings before and know a convenient , easy and cheap way to put a coating on this. CZ recommended Duracoat. If there anybody that have experience with different metods of coatings and can advice which one I will appreciate it. I know the coating wont be "as durable" as the polycoat which is baked on. But I want something to cover the already done scratches.I can always reaply if needed. I ordered a round spring and aluminum guide which I think is the root of the problem(see original post) and hope will cease further scratching. Any positive suggestions about the coating itself and how to apply will be appreciated. Any comment that does not address the inmediate fixing of the problem will be ignored. I alredy explained also that I had people telling me to ignore it in other forum and that my intention is to fix it , so kindly avoid this kind of comments if you do not have an answer to the very clear original questions.Thanks again for any useful reply.

 

[45_auto]

If CZ really only uses a phosphate finish on their aluminum frames, no wonder it's so soft. It makes sense on carbon steel where it will provide some corrosion protection, perhaps they're referring to steel frames in their FAQ on the question about frame finishes?

http://cz-usa.com/support/faq/

Q: “What is the finish called “Black polycoat?”

A: Black polycoat is an electrostaticly-applied powder coating that is then oven cured to a hard shell. The coating is applied over a phosphate finish which is very corrosion resistant in itself, the parts are then racked, given a negative charge and sprayed. This charged attraction literally draws the coating to the parts, giving the parts a uniform finish and reducing overspray. The parts are cured in an oven, producing a tough finish that meets Mil. Spec.

Basic info on aluminum / steel phosphating here:

http://www.phosphatesfacts.org/pdfs/PhosphatesMetalFinishing.pdf

Feel free to ignore anything I type as you see fit. There is an "ignore" option under the forum user controls if you prefer that my posts not appear to you at all. Possibly you would get more people answering your questions without all the threats and instructions on what not to post. If you already know all the answers, why ask?

 

[CZCCW]

Again 45_Auto. I made very specifics questions about something technical. I dont know if you are even a gunsmith.I dont know of many gunsmiths that you would bring a problem to them and would tell you that "if you don like it sell it and buy something else" instead of trying to address the problem. I came to the gunsmith part of the forum looking for solutions. I been very clear about my questions,explained my past situation,and put some guidelines for people who REALLY know and wants to help, not bash or give opinions. I am not asking for opinions because all my questions are technical and with a definitive purpose and they can be answered in the same way. Without need for bashing or opinions or to try to bump the thread into another direction. If you can not read and understand yet this, then I will follow your good advice and ignore you. Now, if beside giving your opinion, bashing my decision and quoting things I have already read you can answer my question about which coating I can use that is durable ,cheap and easy to apply , and if you have experience with any or a few of different coating solutions I will gladly accept your advice. There is no point in coming to a gunsmithing forum to get atittude or opinions. In my trade I am assigned a job and have to look how to solve it the best way possible. I dont bash back the decision of the work given or the why, but just concentrate on a solution ,which is what I been asking here. I could not have been more clear since my initial post about it and still you keep giving opinions and feeling the need to interrupt and not give me any real solution. One of the posters gave me information that aluminum can not be parkerized. Good. That was info. He did not tell me what coat to use in place of parkerizing so I am still waiting for some other poster to help out. You gave me some info but then bashed my opinion and told me to ignore it or sell the gun. You obviously did not read well my original post or the one I did after that.

I dont have a lot of misinformation on materials. I deal with T6 aluminum every day and we treat it for corrosion. It can get corrosion. I also read about parkerizing before asking , but since this is a different industry and there are so many new things on the market and its not what I do every day, I asked anyway and explained why. And quoted the CZ webpage. By the time you made a second opinion I have already stated that I called CZ and they said in this particular alloy gun they dont use the phospating, just the polycoat. Polycoat is not soft but more like brittle and phospating is not a process to be left like that. It is done to seal the metal pores before further painting so it dont have to be "soft " or "hard". It just have to finely cover the surface.

----For paint and powder coatings, a phosphate coating has two main functions.
First, the coating provides improved paint and powder coating adhesion since the phosphate crystals act as organic coating anchoring sites.
Second, the phosphate layer acts as a corrosion barrier should the organic coating get scratched.In rust creep testing, the rust creep is reduced when
phosphate is present under the paint layer or powder coat layer
compared to no conversion layer under the organic coating----

I know how to google also, and I dont think I know everything. You are the only one here with an atittude and frankly I am just asking for help. Again you dont have to answer if you dont have experience in coatings and can not help with the matter. Im not trying to be a hard A** , Im just tryint to get a job done and so far I only get bashing and opinions.

I know and have experience in certain aluminum coatings available to me right now ,but I am not a gunsmith. I can do what I know or ask to someone with experience doing it. You dont seem to be the guy with experience because you would have answered a simple question long ago.

Now again here go my questions that are still not aswered:

Is there any coating beside Duracoat ,Aluma-Hyde ,or zinchromate /paint or some other aluminum coating treatment that any body here with experience in firearms coatings can recommend? Price? Method? If anyone have real experience and can be objective and neutral and give good advice in a professional ,non judgemental way, it will be appreciated. Thanks again.

 

[rcmodel]

Kids!
Play nice!!!

Now, with that out of the way.
You have been told you can't Parkerize, or Phosphate finish non-ferrous metals like aluminum.
You have been told none of the spray paint finishes will hold up as well as the factory finish.
You have been told it is purely cosmetic internal wear and the frame will not corrode & crumble into dust in your or your off-springs lifetimes.

If you don't like these answers?

1. You can take a Magic Marker and 'color' the scratch.
2. You can send the gun back to CZ and Demand they refinish the frame on your dime.
3. You can stop worrying about it, except when you take the slide off to clean it next time.
Then clean & oil it and put the slide back on.
4. Or, you can trade it in on one just like it and bite the money you lost worrying about something so minor.
Then the finish will most likely wear off it too if you shoot it.

(#3 would be my choice)



But don't come along with 4 posts and call out the only guy willing to try to help you after most of us already had decided not too help you after your first post.

In the future?
A little drop of honey will catch more flies then a gallon of vinegar.

rc

 

[CZCCW]

Sorry RC,. again Im not trying to bash anyone. You just repeated the same. It is so difficult for anyone with any knowledge of coatings here to tell me which one they use on the trade ? If you read all the posts, I already acknoledged all the comments before and the one's you are repeating. I dont know why anyone should get offended because I am asking a legitimate question. Unless,.. neither of you are gunsmiths but only subscribed to a gunsmith tread like anyone here could do. I didnt know people were so sensitive that if I dont agree with their opinions(which there are plenty and I respect them but I have said like 4 times is not what I am looking for) , I am marked as "acid", etc.

1 I dont want to use a "magic marker" , I explained the coatings I am considering.
2 I explained already I dont want to send the gun back.
3.I explained before on other post about your point #3 and still this is no help.
4.Again your #4 point already answered. I want to fix the coating and keep the gun. I want to fix it myself.

Only asking for a FIX , from someone with experience.I did not ask for opinions or to again beat the dead horse of what I already mentioned. I dont know if you really comprehend my point and why you so vehemently want to bash me instead of giving me a solution. (regarding a good coating ,not your solution based on not fixing it)

The question in my last post is still there and still no one with knowledge to answer witout properly addressing the problem. If you keep answering like a kid then I have to treat you like one because there is obviously a reading comprehension problem here or just the will of bashing somebody else questions. I know there must be at least one knowledgeable guy in coatings in this forum ,but I guess he must be occupied and the ones that cant answer a straigh question are answering. Again ,follow my post from the beginning. I came here expecting more knowledge and common sense than some fanboys on another site. I have faith someone can still answer straigh without coming back saying the same that have already been said.Thanks.

 

[BBBBill]

Dude! NO ONE HERE HAS BASHED YOU! Go back and very carefully read what was said. They may not have agreed with you or offered what you were looking for, but the only one with an attitude is you. Your replies suggest that none of the respondents have any common sense. I read your first post before anyone replied and decided to avoid posting. My radar went off and told me that there would be some hate and discontent generated real fast and I really didn't want any part of it. And it's obvious that it's all coming from you.

You issue with the gun is not a finish problem. No finish that you put on there will last. No, not one. None. It will begin to wear off the first time the slide cycles. Anywhere that the parts come in contact and move against each other will wear the finish. The issue is clearance. The dimensions of the inside of the dust cover are such that it doesn't allow for the spring to move without rubbing. You can "possibly" have a machinist relieve that area to provide more clearance, but it needs to be someone with a thorough familiarity with that gun so that whatever is done doesn't compromise the structural integrity or hinder function. Once clearance has been machined (if possible and safe), a coating may be applied to cover the bare aluminum and still have clearance from the spring while it moves.
By the way, many of us have owned aluminum alloy guns for many years. Some of us most likely longer than you've been on this earth. I own at least 10, some for as long as 39 years. I suspect that if an aluminum gun was going to corrode and fail due to a flaw in the finish when maintained with even a bare minimum of care, we would have seen it.

That's all I have to say. I'm done with this and you. Have a nice day.

 

[bikerdoc]

We are done here newbie.

I am calling this asked and answered.