Need input on first black powder rifle

[kayak-man]

Hey guys,

I grew up reading the Tucket books by Gary Paulson, and always thought some kind of muzzleloader like a hawken would be pretty awesome.

I'm doing a little research to see if black powder is right for me, -'d I've got three questions I can't seem to find an answer to:

1: I like the idea of being able to use some of the 50 or 30 grain pellets when hunting for ease of use, along with power belts or sabots. Are those safe to use in a traditional style muzzleloader, or are they only approved for the newer inline rifles?

2: it sounds like the projectile you want to use dictates the rifling. If you choose a barrel with rifling optimized for a conical bullet, you can still shoot lead round balls with a patch right, just at the cost of a little accuracy?

3: is there such a thing as a "traditional inline." I love the look of a plains rifle like the Hawkins (feel free to correct my terminology if any of it is wrong) but it sounds like one of the newer inlines would be easier to clean and I like the idea of being able to use a 209 shotgun primer (no particular reason why except it sounds like a good idea). Is there any way to get the best of both worlds? Some kind of strange online that other than the hammer location looks like a traditional?

Thanks guys

 

[kayak-man]

Never mind on the 209 question: I guess in the Pacific Northwest you can't use a closed ignition system or a 209 primer for hunting

 

[RecoilRob]

The conical bullets are very safe to use in a round-ball barrel...but the accuracy will likely be dismal. Going the other way using round-ball in a fast twist conical friendly barrel will have much better results and could be a fine shooter using either projectile. The very slow twist round-ball barrels aren't going to stabilize the long conical bullets well though depending on range one could be acceptably accurate...but that would need to be determined on an individual basis as one rifle might be OK while another of similar dimensions absolutely horrible.

To be safe if you want to use either projectile be sure to get the faster twist rate to cover your bases. I don't know if any traditional rifles are even available with conical friendly twist rates. The various Enfield and Springfield Civil War era rifles shoot the Minie balls just fine, but if you want the Hawken then you might be round-ball only.

Don't fret about cleaning! The traditional rifles clean very easily with the barrel in a bucket of warm water and tight fitting patch which pulls it up through the nipple (or flash hole of a flinter) and just a few passes will have it spotless inside. If you use real Holy Black...they clean up easy, while the substitutes seem to be more troublesome but still nothing to worry about. People make black powder cleaning much more of an issue than it actually is. Fear not! You'll LOVE shooting black powder.

 

[Crawdad1]

With a hooked breech and wedge cleaning becomes real easy as RecoilRob said. But, a rifle that is the best of both worlds, traditional and inline, I can't think of anything.

 

[rodwha]

1) I've not used the pellets, but from what I've read they (now) have a bit of black powder along the base to ignite them easier in non 209 systems. This may be for the ones designed for pistols though.

The problem with pellets is that you cannot tailor your load. Each gun will have its sweet spot(s) and you are more likely to achieve better accuracy with powder. You can always carry premeasured loads for speed and ease in the field. I've also seen the claim that they degrade after opening eventually.

I've not had one single issue igniting Triple 7 powder with a percussion cap (Rem #10).

As I use my powders (3F) between my two cap n ball pistols and my rifle for hunting I demand higher performance as the pistols are limited and so I began using T7 but have since also been using Olde Eynsford by Goex. These give very similar velocities to Swiss. BP is cheaper.

2) Maybe the 1:48" twist is what you want as it is in the middle and can shoot either fairly well. ~1:60" for PRB and 1:20-32" for long conicals/paper patched bullets.

I have the Lyman Deerstalker (1:48" twist) with the deeper grooves for PRB. It does great with the 320 grn Lee REAL from what little I've tried them (nearly touching at 50 yds). It requires a felt wad.

Another option is the Lyman Great Plains rifle. Additional barrels can be bought fairly cheaply and would give you a 1:60" and 1:32" twist.

3) No such thing as a traditional inline. Cleaning isn't that hard.

A patched ball (PRB) is a very effective hunting projectile. When I first became interested and found the BC and SD of the 0.490" ball along with typical velocities I ran them through a calculator and felt it was dismal and about worthless beyond 50 yds. However the traditional fellas showed me far too many pics of deer shot as far as 125 yds where the ball has less than 400 ft/lbs. Up to about 75 yds the ball generally expands and can be found on the offside under the hide (through the shoulders), whereas beyond that it typically doesn't and gives complete passthroughs.

Though the .50 cal ball is typically viewed as a bit small there are hunters who take elk keeping the range shorter. A conical or bullet can be used, which is why I decided on the .50, though, were I to do it over again I might go with the .54.

Along the east coast the rifles were of a smaller caliber with .40 being on the large size. As range is quite short these worked fine for medium game.

 

[BCRider]

I was thinking the same thing as rodwha on simply carrying pre-measured charges. Hell there's kits of tubes you can buy just for this. Can't remember what they are called or who has them. But there was a link someone posted a few years back that was related to this.

Or you can simply make up your own paper cartridges that hold either just the powder or powder and projectile.

I'll also echo that it does not take a long time to assemble the correct brushes and stuff to clean a "dead end" barrel. I work with a rigid shotgun cleaning rod for my own so that the proper size nylon or brass bristle brush can be turned slightly at the end of the push to unlock the brush bristles and allow the return pull. And for guns that have a smaller powder chamber at the end of the barrel I use a smaller brush for cleaning right to the end which is made from a long .22 or .17 rifle cleaning brush folded over so the bristles go to the end of the chamber and clean the corners out well.

Or use spent rifle rounds that you clean and plug the primer holes and use these with small plugs of some form as your measured charge holders for hunting.

Lots of options that allow you to work with loose powder in ways that are every bit as "convenient" as working with pellets. And best of all you can find and copy the perfect charge that gives you the best accuracy within the power range needed for a clean take down.

There may be some wood stocked inlines. But NO inline would be considered in any way as "traditional". They just have not been around all that long.

It is very infrequent that the cap locks I see being shot a lot will missfire. And it takes very little work to maintain a side lock gun in a manner to further minimize any risk of a misfire. I suspect that running loose powder vs the pellets has something to do with that.

 

[rodwha]

I bought these:

http://m.basspro.com/RedHead-Magnum-Speed-Loader/product/55525/

And these:

http://winchestersutler.com/ShotLoad.html#QCTube

The latter I have for both my rifle and pistols.

I have made some paper cartridges just for the powder but never tried them.

 

[rodwha]

Oh, and for cleaning I highly recommend a bore mop.

 

[kayak-man]

Thanks for all the input guys!!!

It sounds like cleaning is a non issue, and I will probably just use pyrodex or one of the other powder substitutes.

Question regarding PRB (patched round ball, right?) and conical bullets: I assume that lead conical bullets would have better performance on game, but that the round balls would require less lead, and thus would be a better choice for target shooting since I could melt more of them from the same amount of lead. Is that a correct assumption, or would one be better off treating this like a rifle and just planning on only using one load and one projectile?

 

[Crawdad1]

Well we don't know what rifle you are going to buy so I'll just go ahead and tell you my experiences. Primitive sights are brutal in the woods while hunting. Range estimation is that at best and when placing a front blade down into a 'v' notched buckhorn rear sight ain't the easiest thing to do to hit something at that estimated range. If you have to practice with those sights in real world ranges because I've never seen a deer hold up a sign sayng "I'm exactly 55 yards from you."

But, if you have the time to work up loads to target shoot and hunt with then have at it. I practice with beer cans and such at various ranges usually paced out to help me practice with my primitive sights. Builds confidence also.

 

[delrom418]

Cabela's used to sell this traditional looking inline rolling block muzzleloader for a while. Made by Pedersoli. I had one for a while, but eventually traded it off for a Lyman sidelock. The one in the link isn't for sale anymore, but I've seen them for sale now and then.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Item/575107100

 

[rodwha]

A ball has great performance on game. Up to about 75 yds it typically expands. After that it leaves a caliber sized hole.

For me the only reason to use a conical in my .50 cal would be if I got the chance to hunt large game.

The benefit of a conical over a ball is wind drift beyond about 75-100 yds or penetration for angling shots on large tough game. The .50 cal ball has brought home elk by a few hunters within about 50 yds or so.

I intend to use a .490" ball for axis which are nearly as big as a mule deer and I'd feel comfortable to 125 yds on a very still day.

However I haven't up a load for a PRB that's good enough beyond about 75 yds whereas the 320 grn REAL will likely do quite well beyond 125 yds, though I haven't shot it past 50 yds yet. That's assuming I've done something about my degraded eyesight...

 

[RecoilRob]

The whole thing with blackpowder is that you are limited to the velocity you can reach, so to make a more powerful/effective gun they increased the bore size. Bigger ball=heavier ball at same velocity=more smackdown and penetration.

Once you go SO big on the ball..you start running into physical issues with things...like the size of a 4 bore rifle is HUGE and difficult to lug around in the field. About the biggest bore I've seen regularly available is 72 cal in the Pedersoli Kodiak double rifle and it works great with roundballs which weigh in the 550-570 grains region and will absolutely put a hurt on whatever it hits.

Then they discovered that they could elongate the bullet and get the same heavier weights in a smaller and more convenient bore size but, of course, these need spun tighter to fly true. These heavier bullets carry their energy better than the round ball out to farther ranges and would be superior if long range shooting was desired. But long range with black powder means rainbow trajectories and the resulting difficulty making connections when you're holding WAY over the target...which really shouldn't have much place in ethical hunting IMHO.

For best effectiveness....the bigger bore will work better...within reason. The .54 slightly better than .50....which is slightly better than .45 but all will require a precise shot to down large game, so your particular ability to connect is more important than which size ball you are using. The conical bullets increase the penetration ability of the particular bore size at the expense of heavier recoil and like we've been talking about...the needs to match the twist rate to whatever bullet you want to shoot. Comparing the different bore sizes by the weight of the bullets that can be used is probably a better way to go IMHO. A .45 conical = 58 round ball at 280 grains for example. The conical will penetrate deeper weight for weight...but probably not enough to sway a decision beyond a straight weight/weight comparison.

Here in PA...I think 'Primitive' hunting season requires a round ball..but I'm not a hunter so I can't say for sure. They for sure used to require a flintlock too...but again this might have changed. Caplocks are pretty darn reliable as are flinters being used by thems that knows.

You have some very interesting contemplation and shopping to do! Enjoy the research and I'm sure you'll make the best decision for you. If you can find a Kodiak....they're great rifles and you get that follow up shot if needed and allowed where you're planning to hunt. My .72 took some work to get regulated decently...but that's part of the fun.

 

[rodwha]

Here's a quick comparison for a .50 cal between a .490" PRB that weighs 177 grns and has a BC of 0.069, and the 320 grn Lee REAL that has a BC of .189 using 2F Triple 7 data. Elevation is at 900 ft with them zeroed at 100 yds and a 10 mph 90* crosswind. The ball is using 90 grns of powder and the conical 80.

Ball is 1.8" high at 50 yds with 2.3" of drift, 9.8" of drift at 100 yds, and -3.4" and 15.5" of drift at 125 yds. At 150 yds it has -8.9" of drop and 22.2" of drift.

REAL is 2.0" high at 50 yds with 1.1" of drift, has 4.1" of drift at 100 yds, and -3.1" with 6.4" of drift at 125 yds. At 150 yds it has -7.9" of drop and 9.2" of drift.

 

[frontiergander]

Still read those "Tucket" books to this day!

Seeing how you enjoy those books, get your self a Traditional muzzleloader, not no inline! You'll feel so much better out in the mountains my friend.

I highly suggest a Traditions Hawken Woodsman.