Need PSL Advice

[karlsgunbunker]

That's why I paid $100 extra for a Paratrooper Model.
About 1" longer than an AK w/slant brake.

I put 100 rds thru this one on Friday 10/19/07 with zero problems.
Rifle fed and fired flawlessly.
I haven't seen any more of the paratrooper models but I love mine.

 

[Adolphus]

I think that might be a good idea as people keep mentioning how long the gun is. What are some good web retailers that are likely to carry these?

 

[Ash]

Did your's perhaps have a short chamber? You mention in a previous post that the dimensions may have been tight. Of course, it could be a simple case failure.

I don't mean to lessen your experience, but if this were a problem, there would be more than just one report on it. Case failures happen, we get reports of this happening with every kind of firearm, from AR's to FAL's. If your chamber was not in spec somehow, that might explain some things. Was yours a kit rifle or new?

Ash

 

[Adolphus]

Are Kit rifles available in this model? Because I was under the impression that the PSL/Romak 3 was made for the Romanian military as a marksman rifle.

 

[Ash]

Yes. The first Romak-3's and SSG-97's that came out were actually newly-made with Russian optics (a very few had IOR scopes). Then came the FPK's assembled from surplus Romanian Military PSL parts by Tennessee Guns. The most recent PSL-54c's that have come in are actual Romanian military PSL parts assembled on Romanian-made receivers. When I say "kit," I refer to the Tennessee Guns PSL's.

Ash

 

[jpwilly]

The PSL-54c I just purchased is not a kit but is built in Romanian specifically for export to the US. The fit and finish is typical of Romanian WASR type AK's.

The 7.62x54R isn't going to do anything different than a 30-06 or 308 are similar hunting caliber rifle bullet would do...Ballistics are very similar. Use a 150gr Hornandy soft point .311" bullet over 47gr of Varget...DISCLAIMER: be sure you check a current reloading manual before taking my advise!

Oh yea...my Mossberg ATR 30-06 is 42" overall and is pretty similar to many other bolt action hunting rifles with a 22" barrel the PSL is only 3 inches longer - don't believe the hype those 3 ity bity inches aren't that big of a deal plus you have a muzzle break!

 

[precisionshootist]

I too liked my PSL until it blew up. I am convinced that this rifle, as it is imported without the safety sear, is a hand grenade. You may never have any issues. I urge you to not get one.

This is the only example of a PSL kaboom that I have heard of. There are many,many PSL's that have been imported and many have been slapped together from parts kits. The numbers support the design being both safe and forgiving of tolerances. You would think more instances of KB's would be reported if this was an issue. Do you know of any other KB events with the PSL? I'm not trying to trivialize your KB as I have never had one and I can imagine that it's a pretty traumatic event.

Second issue I'm not sure about but It's my understanding that the "safety sear" is for the RPK machine gun that uses the same receiver not the PSL. The recent recall of PSL's was because of the extra hole that is for the safety sear in the RPK that had been welded up. I don't think the safety sear itself is part of the PSL design, it's part of the RPK's. It may be present in the military version for ease of manufacturing and simply left in place on the PSL. This is just theory and I'm not sure if anyone really knows. This is probably worth more investigation for those interested in this rifle. The rifle is being imported again in large numbers and due to ammo costs these guns are getting shot a whole bunch. As others have pointed out if this is a problem then pretty much all AKs and Saiga's especially 308 and 30-06 Saiga's
have the same potential issue. None of these designs include a safety sear.

 

[nalioth]

Second issue I'm not sure about but It's my understanding that the "safety sear" is for the RPK machine gun that uses the same receiver not the PSL. The recent recall of PSL's was because of the extra hole that is for the safety sear in the RPK that had been welded up. I don't think the safety sear itself is part of the PSL design, it's part of the RPK's.

The PSL receiver and RPK receivers are two different things. The PSL receiver is a bit longer than an RPK receiver, due to its using 7.62x54r cartridges.

The RPK receiver is nothing more than a AK receiver made with thicker steel and with bulges in the front for the stronger trunnions of the RPK.

I've built both. They are different.

The military PSL was designed and does come with a safety sear.

 

[Cosmoline]

The only drawbacks to the PSL hunting would be:

--Possible game restrictions on mag size. You might need to find a five rounder.

--It will scare the bejesus out of the Fudds (maybe that's a benefit)

--It's not too great with the heavy 54R slugs, though for deer that's not an issue. It's designed for the post WWII light ball in the 140 grain range.

Other than that, it should work fine. It's extremely durable and quite accurate. To get an ideal load for it you will probably need to handload, but it's not difficult to load for. Just use .311" soft points.

This is the only example of a PSL kaboom that I have heard of.

Ditto that. The only problem I've heard of is they wear out fast if you crank a lot of heavy ball through them. Nothing about a kaboom.

 

[Cosmoline]

Judging from where the cartridge burst, this is my take on what happened. I don't know for SURE what happened. I am convinced had there been a safety sear, this would not have happened.

Your description of the problems getting some cartridges to seat but not others really makes me think it was a headspacing issue or some problem with the chamber dimensions. If the headspacing was too little you might well have some rounds protruding but still going off.

Was your rifle a kit gun? Did you check headspace and verify the chamber dimensions with a good BRASS case? There are PSL's floating around out there that were put together out of bits and pieces. Others were put together at the armory and are in excellent condition. You can check based on side markings. There's a PSL/Dragonov website around that tells how.

 

[rockstar.esq]

For what it's worth, a good friend of mine owns one and it honest to god out shoots his Fulton Armory National Match M1A out to ranges upwards of 500 yards. What is frustrating for me is that the cheek piece is perfect for me to align with the iron sights but WAY too low for the scope. Firing from the prone is most uncomfortable to my neck and shoulders due to this arrangement. The thumbhole is nice however it's nowhere near as nice as my Choate Varminter thumbhole stock in terms of comfort. That being said, my buddy is literally shooting all day for what I pay for 20 rounds of ammo! Another vastly underrated part about this rifle is that the bolt locks back after the last shot. That singular feature makes it superior to the AK (to me at least). If nothing else, it proves that it can be done and some of us would love to see a SAIGA / clone made thusly. One last point, the scope that comes with it is small and dim but as tactical/ long range precision scopes go, is about as easy to use and as repeatable as most folks would ever need. No range calculations, no contemplating mils versus MOA, just line up the turret number with the x100 meter range and let er rip.

 

[rockstar.esq]

I forgot to mention that the slings mount on the side of the gun making it WAY easier to pack around than the traditional (and stupid) bottom of the stock system.

 

[precisionshootist]

nalioth

The PSL receiver and RPK receivers are two different things.

If the RPK and PSL are different receivers how is it that the BATFE is claiming PSL-54c’s to be automatic weapons because of the third “safety sear” hole being first drilled then welded up. Seems if they are different receivers there would be no way, even by ATF buffoonish logic, that these guns could be ruled contraband and confiscated. The ATF is claiming this extra hole for the safety sear makes the receiver an RPK full auto. I have said from day one this is the most ridiculous nonsense I have ever heard of. I also think that if this BATFE ruling remains unchallenged they have established the precedent that they could rule ANYTHING to be a machine gun for ANY reason and thus confiscate whole classes of firearms. Century has had to recall hundreds of these now personally owned guns and if the owner did not cooperate then they turn the names over to ATF. I would advise anyone thinking of buying a PSL to be sure of the source of the firearm otherwise you could be buying an unregistered machine gun. Sorry I’m going off topic here.

The military PSL was designed and does come with a safety sear.

If it was specifically part of the PSL design why wouldn't guns like the Saiga 308 or Yugo M76 8mm need a safety sear? Not trying to argue, just asking to know. My thinking is it was likely part of the RPK design that just got carried over to the PSL and may not really be needed. Could be wrong though as maybe it has to do with the large and rimmed 54R cartridge that makes it necessary. Hate to think all the US spec PSL’s are just waiting for a slam fire auto disassembly.

 

[Ash]

Actually, the PSL did have the safety sear, as did the Yugo M76 (and the British L1A1). These were included in the design because there was no reason not to and so assembly was easier.

The M76's that came in several years ago all had the safety sear still in place. Folks paid quite alot for those rifles only to have the ATF show up at their door and confiscate them. Caused all sorts of bitter anguish and anger. These M76's you see for sale in various places in Shotgun News are the remnants of those original rifles. They were taken down, the receivers destroyed and replaced by a US made (Ohio Ordinance I think) one and reassembled. Therefore, those on the market currently (save for that small batch imported in the 1980's) are just parts kits.

The PSL's that got recalled were made from original PSL receivers with the original information ground off the receiver just forward of the magazine on the bottom. You can look there and see the buffing/grinding marks. They then had the safety sear welded up and cleaned up. There is no reason this could not be allowed because the PSL (like the M76) were never machine guns, so once a machine gun, always a machine gun should not have applied. They were never machine guns and in the case of the PSL's, were not easily convertible as the same holes that would have to be drilled out in the originally welded-up rifles as would any AK receiver.

The British L1A1 was also built in this manner after they decided that full auto was worthless. Even though most L1A1's were never machine guns, were never fully-auto, the fact that they had the safety sear means we cannot import original L1A1's (like, say, original SKS's FN-49's, or MAS 49/56's).

Lunacy.

However, virtually all US semi-auto AK's are built without the safety sear. Whether they are M76's, various 7.62x39 AK's, PSL's, VEPR's, or Siaga's, they all lack the safety sear. And while mostly the PSL's use the 7.62x54R cartridge, there have been no other reports of trouble on this front. That is not to say that it cannot be the problem, and the lack of evidence need not necessarily be proof of no problem, it is a strong indicator that something more specific was defective in that specific rifle like a tight chamber or some such thing.

Ash

 

[Adolphus]

After reading all of your comments I have learned that I know almost nothing about firearms

However if you could point me towards a reputable dealer of these rifles it would be much appreciated.

I'm gonna have to pick up "Military Firearms for Dummies"

 

[nalioth]

If the RPK and PSL are different receivers how is it that the BATFE is claiming PSL-54c’s to be automatic weapons because of the third “safety sear” hole being first drilled then welded up. Seems if they are different receivers there would be no way, even by ATF buffoonish logic, that these guns could be ruled contraband and confiscated. The ATF is claiming this extra hole for the safety sear makes the receiver an RPK full auto.

Just because the ATF says it's so, doesn't make it reality. An RPK and a PSL are similar in design, but definitely not the same.

Don't put it past the alphabet boys to be "buffoonish" on anything. I've seen agents who didn't even know how to drop a magazine from a 1911a1.

 

[LeibstandarteAdH]

Originally Posted by precisionshootist
Second issue I'm not sure about but It's my understanding that the "safety sear" is for the RPK machine gun that uses the same receiver not the PSL. The recent recall of PSL's was because of the extra hole that is for the safety sear in the RPK that had been welded up. I don't think the safety sear itself is part of the PSL design, it's part of the RPK's.

Originally Posted by precisionshootist
If the RPK and PSL are different receivers how is it that the BATFE is claiming PSL-54c’s to be automatic weapons because of the third “safety sear” hole being first drilled then welded up. Seems if they are different receivers there would be no way, even by ATF buffoonish logic, that these guns could be ruled contraband and confiscated. The ATF is claiming this extra hole for the safety sear makes the receiver an RPK full auto. I have said from day one this is the most ridiculous nonsense I have ever heard of. I also think that if this BATFE ruling remains unchallenged they have established the precedent that they could rule ANYTHING to be a machine gun for ANY reason and thus confiscate whole classes of firearms. Century has had to recall hundreds of these now personally owned guns and if the owner did not cooperate then they turn the names over to ATF. I would advise anyone thinking of buying a PSL to be sure of the source of the firearm otherwise you could be buying an unregistered machine gun. Sorry I’m going off topic here.

The RPK and PSL receivers are NOT the same at all. Yes the dimentions for the front end "bulge" are the same, but it ends right there. The mag dimples are completely diffrent. The bolt carrier rails are way diffrent, the magazine well its self, and the rear end is reinfourced and also totally diffrent. All that the "saftey sear" does in an otherwise semi trigger group is keep the hammer from falling on the firing pin unless the bolt carrier rail is depressing it, allowing it to clear the catch on the hammer. A slamfire will still happen weather or not a 'saftey sear' is present or not.

That being said, even though the PSL, and M76 were never full auto in the first place, all that it would take to make it so is installing the rest of the auto trigger pack, which isnt very much.

I can see why the ATF would come and take semi autos with the Y axis pin and auto sear installed, but as has been pointed out, if these parts are removed, the holes welded up, then the EXACT SAME action is required to convert them back to their "illegal" status as any other 'legally' imported kalash action'ed gun like the WASR's and SAIGA's that come in in droves.

In a perfect world where if its not full auto, its not full auto, there is no reason to remove the 'saftey' aka 'auto sear' depending on the context, because it can do nothing bad, the gun still isnt full auto, and still requires the 'illegal' parts and actions to convert it. But thats not how it is here in the states' these days.

 

[Ash]

Once-a-machine-gun-always-a-machine-gun-even-if-it-wasn't-ever-a-machine-gun...

Ash

 

[JHansenAK47]

I don't know about you, but I hate the PSL stock trigger. I put an adjustable trigger from RSA in and never looked back. Probably the the single best improvement that can be done to the gun with the exception of getting a real high end scope.

 

[precisionshootist]

I don't know about you, but I hate the PSL stock trigger. I put an adjustable trigger from RSA in and never looked back. Probably the the single best improvement that can be done to the gun with the exception of getting a real high end scope.

I had a PSL-54c that had/has a fantastic trigger. This was just one of many reasons this recall hacked me off. I went out of my way to get this particular rifle and paid nealy $1200 for it because I thought it was exceptional. As a bonus, All numbers matched including the mags. Now I'm going to get back the run of the mill $750 rifle. Total BS! I had been researching a challenge to this for months and talking to top gun lobby players. Pretty much all agree this ATF "never a machine gun, always a machine gun" method of confiscating private property is nonsense and would not hold up if challenged. I can easily see this ATF crap spreading like wild fire with a little Democrat/anti support. For example: all the new Colt AR's are shipping with M-16 bolt carriers, they could very easily change thier opinion to "these are unrigistered automatic weapons" and confiscate thousands and thousands of privately held high dollar AR's. I would not be surprised if this is a trial balloon for even more of this type of govt sponsored theft.


Ash: that is great info, I was not aware the M-76 had a safety sear and I think you are spot on about the recalled guns. I belive the one that I have/had is pretty much the real deal and likely why it is such a fantastic shooter.

 

[LeibstandarteAdH]

Yep, i agree, total BS. Welcome to the rule of the alphabet boys.

 

[Jack A. Sol]

This thread makes my friggin head hurt!!!

Adolphus,
The PSL is an AK based gun. It is not an AR, Remington 700, M14 or any other kind of gun. It has it's own manual of arms (method of operation and employment) that is unlike other guns. this means you cant treat it like other guns. It's a fine weapon and capable of very good accuracy. If you want one then feed it with good ammo like the 7N1 sniper Ammo from outdoor marksman. It's cheap and performs really well. Even this FMJ stuff will kill a deer all day long. you dont need expanding bullets to do the job if you can place your shot.
The scope provided with the gun will not allow a decent cheek weld as it comes. this is because the romy's wanted to be able to use their irons at will and a scope only when needed (gawsh imagine being able to use iron sights to kill something!!) If you really just like using the scope then some padding and duct tape will bring your eye in line for a proper cheek weld and you are GOLDEN!! (no that dont qualify as "bubbaing" your gun either). get an AK sight adjustment tool when you order. you will need it to sight in the irons.

these are fine guns and you will find no more reliable semi-auto on the market today. they represent a great bargain and still qualify as a "homeland defense rifle" should the need arise.

dont worry about the detractors and all this nonsense about a "safety sear" (which no AK in the history of AK's has ever had!!! they had Auto Sears and rate reducers/ hammer retarders but NEVER A SAFETY SEAR!! http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/comp/trigger.html what is a "safety sear" and can anyone show me a gun that has one listed in thier parts breakdown?) the PSLis a fine gun and you would do well to own one. the more you learn about it the more you will love it and realize what a solid rifle it is.

Jack

 

[precisionshootist]

The scope provided with the gun will not allow a decent cheek weld as it comes. this is because the romy's wanted to be able to use their irons at will and a scope only when needed (gawsh imagine being able to use iron sights to kill something!!)

This configuration is the beauty of this rifle. You have full use of both sight systems simultaneously. Very few other rifles are like this. Most scoped DMR type rifles you have the scope as primary and irons only as backup. With the PSL You can be putting rounds on a target a 400+ yards through the scope and the next second drop to the irons and spank something at 50 yards or closer. The irons are wide open and can even be used close quarters. In fact, after using this setup and experiencing it's versatility it's hard to go back to our more traditional DMR rifles. (Scoped ARs, M1a, etc)

 

[Ash]

It is an auto-sear, you are correct. However, in general parlance, they are used inter-changeably because the FAL's offending part, which is the same thing, is called the safety-sear in FAL circles. While technically incorrect to call the AK the same, it provides a common association. In any case, what ever the prefix used with the sear, we can all agree it is a no-no.

Ash

 

[Vaarok]

One thing to mention- PSLs are meant for 147gr ammo. They can fire 180gr and 205gr, but the gas system's timed for 147gr, and heavier loadings can screw up the pressure at the port and cause violent cycling, torn caseheads, or even damage to the rifle.