Need some AK-47 help.

[Kowycz]

I am possibly in the market for an AK-47. My budget is $1,000, which I think is good for an AK. I am not entirely sure which type of AK to purchase, but I would like to buy a very good quality gun. Also I would rather it not be used. It needs to be something that is readily available on the internet, seeing as that's how I would have to purchase it (obviously through an FFL dealer).

So if anyone could direct me to some websites that have some great new AK's in stock and are very good guns please toss them up. A big thing for me is that this be a great gun right out of the box.

 

[GunDoctor]

If you can find it I would get a Siaga. They are current production and more accurate than other AK's. The gun and conversion will still get you under $1000.

 

[wally]

If you expect MOA accuracy from an AK you will be disappointed. I've most all the variations and better than 3MOA is the exception not the rule. 4-8" groups at 100 yards is what most available ammo will give you in a "random" AK. The poor sights and trigger by AR standards don't help either.

$1000 should about buy you two and have money left over for some ammo. You can pay more to get prettier, but its still an AK and its design was for reliability first, accuracy a distant second.

A quality Saiga conversion is probably what you are looking for.


What will amaze you is how much abuse they can take and never miss a beat. My oldest Norinco has never been cleaned, I just try to keep enough oil on it so it don't rust.

I love the you tube video of the guy shooting his AK so much the hard guards catch fire! I've got mine hot enough to burn my hand, but I stopped before the hand guards actually started smoking.

--wally.

 

[9mmepiphany]

for something different, but i think nicer than the usual AK...you might take a look at the VZ-58

 

[H2O MAN]

ChiCom AK

For that kind of money I suggest you shop the secondary market for a Pre Ban Norinco or Poly Tech.
These have thicker stamped receivers, heavier Chrome lined barrels and excellent triggers.

It's tough to beat a Chinese AK at any price.

 

[Thernlund]

You could get 2 or 3 AKs for that money.

I got mine from ARS. Highly recommended.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/


-T.

 

[AK103K]

I would also say the restored Saiga conversions are your best bet. You end up with a fairly true Russian rifle. Krebs does nice work, as does AK-USA.

If you expect MOA accuracy from an AK you will be disappointed. I've most all the variations and better than 3MOA is the exception not the rule. 4-8" groups at 100 yards is what most available ammo will give you in a "random" AK. The poor sights and trigger by AR standards don't help either.

I've had just the opposite experience. I would say that 3-4" at 100 yards would be the norm across the price range of guns I own or have owned, excepting out guns built here from kits. The guns assembled/barreled in the country of origin usually do better than the guns assembled here, or at least the guns I own/owned have.

Ammo has a lot to do with it too. If you have a lot of decent ammo, you'd be amazed at what can be accomplished. Wolf has been hit or miss all along, the old Barnaul, (especially the 125 grain soft points) which I believe is now being sold under the Brown and Silver Bear labels has always been the most consistent for me. I do have a lot of Wolf 154 grain SP's that is also very good.

The sights really are not all that bad, and you can also add a red dot if you have trouble with them. As far as the triggers go, all of my AK's triggers have been better than all but one of my AR's, and that trigger is a worked match trigger. Even the triggers that had slap were better, although eventually painful.

Theres no doubt that the AK isnt a target rifle, but its really not as bad as you often hear. Pop a red dot on it, and it will stay right up with just about anything else within reason.

 

[Kowycz]

Thank you for all the rapid advice and suggestions. I don't know how much I would trust myself with the Saiga conversion. I read up on it after it was suggested, and although it isn't an extremely difficult looking modification, I just don't think I would like to do it until I am more familiar with AK-47's. I would rather find something that would be great out of the box (I know that's a tall order). I know I would learn a lot from the conversion also, but I just don't think I trust myself with it yet.

 

[gtmerkley]

Try a Krinkov if you can find one.

 

[H2O MAN]

Kowycz I just don't think I would like to do it until I am more familiar with AK-47's.
I would rather find something that would be great out of the box (I know that's a tall order).

That's not a tall order, I recently acquired this Pre Ban Norinco for less than $900.00
LNIB with one 30 round mag off Chinese copper washed fired through it.

It's appearance has change a good bit since I picked it up

 

[nalioth]

The chinese AKs were manufactured (like all AKs built in state owned facilities) for less than $50.

The fact that they've not been imported in years has not made them worth the money they are getting.

The "heavy receiver" is due to the crap steel the chinese used, so they beefed it up for durability.

 

[wally]

Let's clarify, When I talk "groups" I'm talking 10 shots, minimum. Every time I shoot an AK if I shoot only three or five shots at a target the groups will look a lot better, but a 10 shot composite relative to the superimposed point of aim is more likely than not to be in the 4-8" range at 100 yards. I'm sure some guns out there will do better, but I've never witnessed it. YMMV. Expect 4-8" and you'll almost certainly be happy, expect 3-4" and you've a significant chance of being disappointed.

You can buy well done Saiga conversions, instead of doing it yourself. Tromix is highly regarded, but usually back ordered, I got my Saiga conversions from Military Gun Supply www.miltarygunsupply.com (one in .7.62x39, one in .308) and another nice .308 from a local Houston smith -- this one has the best trigger I've ever felt on an AK.

Now that the kits with barrels are gone, I fully expect Americans will "accurize" the AK and make the reliability suffer greatly.

--wally.

 

[wally]

The "heavy receiver" is due to the crap steel the chinese used

If you've ever tried to drill a Chinese AK or SKS for a scope mount, you'll be complaining about the "cheap American drill bits" from the hardware store! (I did it back when the guns were <$200 and most things in the hardware store weren't from China!)

One of the few things the communist economic system could do effectively was produce quality steel. Finer operations like making stamped instead of milled receivers (heat treating is the secret!) took much longer to get right.

According to "Tales of the Gun" on the History channel, the original AK was designed to be stamped, but quality problems initially led them to mill out the 2lb receiver from an 8lb block which in a great understatement "was horribly inefficient even by the communist production standards of the time"

I've Norinco and Polytech guns, pay the premium if you fancy collecting -- especially with box and accessories, but for shooters, you are wasting your money in my experience.

--wally.

 

[AK103K]

Krebs has a bunch of variations in your price range. They do quality work. I have one of his early AK103K that I got back in the mid to late 90's. Price then was $700, they have gone up a little since then. Its been flawless since day one. Its the 14" barreled model with a welded on brake.



Here's his web page.....

http://www.krebscustom.com/KalashnikovRifles.shtml


You can get a good idea of what to expect from 3-5 round groups. 10 rounds works too, but isnt always an indicator of what to expect, especially if you cant control the ammo quality.

This was shot at 200 yards with a SAR1 using the (slightly canted) iron sights and Wolf 154 grain SP's. The smaller group was fired from a rest to confirm zero, the upper group from a cross legged sitting position at a fairly steady cadence.



This was shot at 100 yards offhand using the AK103K above with its Aimpoint, using Barnaul 125 grain SP's.



100 yards sitting...



If your looking for a gun to shoot bullseye targets and tight little groups with, then the AK probably isnt for you. If your looking for a gun that will easily and quickly put good hits on a man sized target out to 300 yards or so, the AK will do you fine if your capable.

 

[MIL-DOT]

(QUOTE)"If you can find it I would get a Siaga. They are current production and more accurate than other AK's. The gun and conversion will still get you under $1000."

I agree with the Saiga recommendation, but a thousand bucks should get you a Saiga, the conversion, AND two cases of ammo !!

 

[Starship1st]

Saiga is a good buy.

 

[H2O MAN]

Norinco & Poly Tech

 

[HorseSoldier]

+1 on buying from Krebs if you want a top end AK. AKs I've seen from Piece of History Firearms or Jim Fuller at Rifle Dynamics also have been pretty nicely done weapons. (There are other reputable custom shops out there too, though I'm not personally familiar with their work.) With the latter two, you'd need to send them a parts kit and receiver you've purchased, which means more of a wait but allows you to have any kind of customization you might want done by professionals.

 

[Kowycz]

Thank you for all the wealth of information everyone! Does anyone have any experience with Vector Arms, or the dealer Atlantic Firearms?

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/programming/expand.asp?Prodid=233

Also the Milled vs. Stamped, how much of a difference does it truly make?

 

[kingpin008]

Atlantic is a member here, and from what I've heard and seen, they're top-notch to deal with.

As far as Vector - If memory serves, they're not half bad either.

 

[nalioth]

Also the Milled vs. Stamped, how much of a difference does it truly make?

May I refer you to the search feature on that? Your question has been done to death.

 

[Atlantic Firearms]

FYI , Vector has had a great rep for years in the AK market and you may also want to look at the Lancaster and Arsenal line .

 

[Thin Black Line]

Krebs, Vector, Saiga, and Arsenal are all fine choices. Don't go crazy paying
out right up to $1000. Save some money for real steel mags, ammo, and
side rail mounted optics. You might want to budget in a drum in the very
near future while you can still get one. If you learn how to adjust the romie
drums they work fine. However, avoid the romie AES-10B (rpk style rifle)
unless you are a part-time gunsmith.

 

[H2O MAN]

Don't forget under folders ...

This is a new in the box Pre Ban Norinco that I picked up last year.