never knew 1861 Navy was such a pain!

[makos_goods]

You must also know that the arbor is heating too. The blast from the gap is blowing directly on it. So as the cylinder expands so does the arbor. A little more in length then dia. I have three guns with that gap now. All work fine. 1862 police, 1851 and the 1860 army. The first 2 use no lube at all.
The last i'm working on.

It takes me a long afternoon to shoot 278 shots.

If you look at the pic of the arbor in above post, you will see that the as the cyl turns the threads move it back.

Wire gage - pin gage

Doc,
I had forgotten about your photo, thank you. I was wondering if your clearance grooves were proud to the primary diameter, do you have a corresponding spline or internal feature in your cylinder that engages the left hand helix? Or are you suggesting it is simply friction on the surface that is providing the rearward thrust? This is something I had never considered before. Is it your contention that the friction on the surface is greater than the angular forward vector of the hand engaging the ratchet?

I can only relate what I observe or derive. I can tell you that at least where I live, the Arbor doesn’t heat at the rate the Cylinder does. It is the contained gases and bullet passage that are transferring the most heat. The amount of escaping gases that impinge on the arbor are insignificant in comparison the the gases in the expanding pressure vessel the cylinder and barrel creates.

To be fair, the area approximately ¾ of an inch in front of the barrel forcing cone is the hottest area on an 1860 or a Dragoon shooting 30 grains and 50 grains respectively (I can speak to those two without having to resort to anecdotal evidence). In fact it becomes the hottest area on any revolver shooting BP of any grain size from Fg to FFFg after only the third shot. At the second chamber firing it is roughly the same as the temperature directly over the first chamber that is now actually cooling but having some make up heat being pumped into it from the second chamber.

This is from instrumented data taken with surface mounted thermocouples on the barrels, cylinders and the exterior of the frame below the cylinder. A test was started in November to answer the question of which grain size of Black Powder generated the most heat in standard loadings of cartridge guns and percussion revolvers in the pistol cartridges and loads used in CAS. These tests are expected to be completed this Spring when the ambient temperatures and humidity get to the levels the first series of test were conducted in. There has been a lot of anecdotal relating of the differences in transferred heat from different grain sizes but no definitive testing or data that we know of.

BP of any grain size generates much more heat than “equivalent” smokeless powder loads. The gap between the arbor and the cylinder and the barrel pocket and the arbor acts as heat brakes. The Arbor also has a much more mechanically sound interface to the frame which acts as a heat sink for the arbor. The frame acts as a heat sink and spreader for the arbor even while the cylinder is constantly having more heat pumped in by each subsequent firing.

The diameter of the arbor hole on the cylinder actually grows at a faster rate than the diameter making it run a bit looser if the fouling is kept from the arbor to cylinder opening. Most people can’t run their pistols un-lubricated because of the fouling build up. This isn’t related to the cylinder gap, it is a direct result of the original C&B designs not having a gas ring as you see on a ’72 Open Top or a SAA. This is actually worse for a Remington pattern pistol than the Colt’s because of the small arbor pin. With grease in the channel it actually runs smoother as it is warmed up (and not because the grease gets "thinner"), then at some point the grease is blown off and the fouling begins to take a toll.

You conducted a 278 round endurance test, I’m sure you can relate to us that after a while you could spit on the barrel or cylinder after a string and it would sizzle. Looking at it in a simplistic fashion the linear CTE of carbon steel is roughly 6.45E-06 in/°F. So .002” is quickly consumed by less than 150° of temperature rise. Most shooters find their pistols getting stiffer as they shoot which is a combination of fouling and thermal growth closing some gaps while opening others such as the cylinder I.D.

It seems that we have been pursuing the wrong corrective actions for years in adding lubrication and providing what we thought were universally accepted cylinder clearances to provide the reliability we need for trouble free results in timed competitions.

I am looking forward to applying some of your techniques in my quest for the better performing Cap Gun.
Thank you,
Mako

 

[TheRodDoc]

To use a colt with no lube, this recess in the arbor must be exactly flush with the cyl. face. If it is in the cyl. bore to far it funnels fouling directly into the arbor area. Same if it is ahead of the face. And along with a chamfered bore it fouls quite bad and quick without lots of grease.

My Uberti 1860 relief is in the cyl. bore about 1/8". So it is a problem.
Is everyones Uberti 1860 like that?

Should look something like this below.

 

[makos_goods]

Yep, everyone's is like that because they make one arbor for '51s, '60s and '61s. The arbor you have of your '51 pistol is a Uberti arbor as well.

Everyone else's experience with Uberti, 2nd Model Colt's and Colt's Signature Series '51s is different from your own as far as I am aware (speaking of fouling). These all have the same arbors. The Navy model cylinders are shorter and they relief groove stops at the cylinder face on these models. The '60 relief on Uberti, 2nd Model Colt's and Colt's Signature Series is as you have described.

Regards,
Mako

~Mako

 

[TheRodDoc]

No sir, The arbor on my 51 was made right at Colt. It is a real Colt.
I saw them being made in the Hartford machine shop on a tour. My whole gun was made there. And bought there in 1972.

If all the reppos are inside the bore, then that's the problem. They won't shoot dry.

 

[makos_goods]

No sir, The arbor on my 51 was made right at Colt. It is a real Colt.
I saw them being made in the Hartford machine shop on a tour. My whole gun was made there. And bought there in 1972.

If all the reppos are inside the bore, then that's the problem. They won't shoot dry.

If you say so.

But that is contrary to what the Replica Percussion Revolver Collector's Association, Colt's and Dennis Adler reports. By all reports the rest of us have to date Colt's contracted with Uberti and brought the parts in country for assembly. The Arbor on my 2nd Gen Colt's '51 was identical to earlier Ubertis. I knew yours was a second gen by looking at it. Most people think the silver plating is the giveaway. Besides the stamping the giveaway is usually the clearance cut for the hand. They (Uberti) have since changed back to the original angular cut.

If you toured in '72 you must be much older than you look. There is a certain tour policy that's been in place forever (to the best of my knowledge) unless you are the child of an employee and were on one of the infrequent family day tours. If that is the case I may know your father or mother.

Regards,
Mako.

 

[TheRodDoc]

I had to look through my junk to make sure of the year. It was fall of 1971. The gun was No. 625 out the door.

I went there with a very large Colt collector. He was in his late 70's and I was in my later 20's. He lived near me. We were pretty good friends. They had been doing his gun work for years making missing parts and such for him. He knew people there. He is the one that bought my gun for me.

I'm 64

 

[TheRodDoc]

Here is the two arbors. 51 and 60

View attachment 137666

View attachment 137667

 

[TheRodDoc]

here is the other side of the 51. notice another flat at rear as on other side. Also serial no. on top of arbor at end that goes into the barrel. (had hard time getting it to show up but you can kind of see it. 4826

(The gas cutting is slowly getting deeper through the years). It's shot a lot of shots in 39 years.

View attachment 137670

View attachment 137671

 

[BHP FAN]

Still a long way from being worn out.

 

[makos_goods]

(The gas cutting is slowly getting deeper through the years). It's shot a lot of shots in 39 years.

Doc,
About how many shots a year would you estimate? None of mine except for a 148 year old Colt's has any evidence of erosion like that.

~Mako

 

[makos_goods]

I guess I didn't answer you question fully. I measure the space between nipple and hammer with a wire gage. there is room to put one in just under the hammer shield and between the hammer and recoil shield. I place a feeler gage in the cylinder gap to hold it back and hold the hammer forward to check it.
I do know how to measure. I own a complete machine shop. Been a machinist for many years. Also a sheet metal shaper able to build complete car bodies or whatever from sheets of metal. And use both to build custom hand built cars.

Doc,
Just finished putting everything up from today’s club shoot and then looking at some of my Colt’s, Ubertis, Piettas and ASMs models 1860, 1851 and 1861. Before the match another C&B shooter and I were engaged in a conversation with a BP cartridge shooter about the reliability of percussion pistol. The subject of cylinder gap and cap fitting came up of course and during the conversation I was describing how to measure the gap and hammer to cone clearance and he thought it sounded complex.

I then told him I had read that someone (you) had a different method that just involved using pin gages. The other C&B shooter asked me how that would work. I attempted to show him and could not figure out how to get a pin gage between the hammer and a cone. There isn’t any approach I can find that will allow it to be introduced to that interface. When I got home I looked at other pistols to make sure I wouldn’t be speaking out of ignorance.

When you earlier told us you used flat feeler gages and “wire” gages I asked what you had used because I assumed you were speaking of some flexible wire gage as you would set a spark plug gap with. At the time I couldn't imagine any way to get a pin gage in there, you have told us that is how you do it and after further investigation I am more perplexed than before.

Is it possible to post a photograph or to show us with one of your models how to do it? I told the fellow shooter I would get back to him when I found out.

Regards,
Mako

 

[TheRodDoc]

I'm not near my shop now but I found a .010 needle in the house to put in there for a picture to show where it goes. On this gun there is plenty of room for a gage to fit in there.

I shoot this gun a lot. At least once a week and some weeks it may be several days after work just to relax. I almost always will load it three times and on occasions a whole box of 100 balls. So a very rough estimate might be an average of 30 to 40 shots per week. I love shooting it because it is trouble free and I only need to take Balls, Powder horn with spout and caps with me to enjoy a day of shooting.
No wads, grease, nipple wrench, nipple pick, rags, screwdrivers, hammers, pliers, loaders, oil, measures, funnels, cleaning products, patches or a box to put it all in.

View attachment 137746

 

[makos_goods]

I'm not near my shop now but I found a .010 needle in the house to put in there for a picture to show where it goes. On this gun there is plenty of room for a gage to fit in there.

I shoot this gun a lot. At least once a week and some weeks it may be several days after work just to relax. I almost always will load it three times and on occasions a whole box of 100 balls. So a very rough estimate might be an average of 30 to 40 shots per week. I love shooting it because it is trouble free and I only need to take Balls, Powder horn with spout and caps with me to enjoy a day of shooting.
No wads, grease, nipple wrench, nipple pick, rags, screwdrivers, hammers, pliers, loaders, oil, measures, funnels, cleaning products, patches or a box to put it all in.

View attachment 137746

Doc,
I'm not trying to be contentious but that needle you're showing is not Ø.010 it is at least Ø.020". I tried a couple of sizes in comparison to your photograph to find an analog diameter pin. Compare your and my pictures below for size. The only reason you can get anything under the hammer is because you have cocked it back slightly. That is the same reason I could get a straight pin between the hammer and cone.

Look at the two following pictures of a Navy model in the same orientation you are showing.



See how the clearance goes away with the hammer down?



Now yours again:

You can see you have the same clearance issues.

It is deceptive at first, it almost looks as if there is a direct linear path to stick a pin in but there isn't.

This shows the only thing I was able to snake in and that is a Ø.004 brass wire. You will note how it is bent around the edge of the cylinder to get to the cone/hammer interface.



I changed the orientation to show how it is wedged between the hammer and the cylinder. It's being bent in an arc by the interference from the cylinder if you look closely.There isn't anyway you can get a measurement with it bent like that, you would never know when it was free and when it was bound by the hammer to cone interface and not the hammer to cylinder.

I could literally show you the same views with 19 different percussion pistols. And like I said before, it would include everything from an '49 manufactured in 1853 all the way to Piettas and Ubertis produced before last year.

I was hoping you had a different approach that would make it easy to measure the gap or lack thereof. It looks like we are all still stuck with extrapolation of a couple of other measurements to get the actual clearance.

Thank you,
Mako

 

[makos_goods]

I shoot this gun a lot. At least once a week and some weeks it may be several days after work just to relax. I almost always will load it three times and on occasions a whole box of 100 balls. So a very rough estimate might be an average of 30 to 40 shots per week. I love shooting it because it is trouble free and I only need to take Balls, Powder horn with spout and caps with me to enjoy a day of shooting.
No wads, grease, nipple wrench, nipple pick, rags, screwdrivers, hammers, pliers, loaders, oil, measures, funnels, cleaning products, patches or a box to put it all in.

So I'm going to assume you have shot it maybe a total of 1,000 to 1.560 times in the last 33 years? That's 30 a week, it would be 2,080 in the last 33 years if you shot every week rain, snow or shine.

I think your lack of lubrication is prematurely destroying your pistol. For instance, I shot two of them 30 times each today at the club match, I'll do the same and probably 40 each for the one club that normally has 8 stages for the next two weeks. My current primary pair have gone through five seasons and they look almost new except for minor scuffing. Anymore, I keep track of how many rounds I have put through mine by a very large bag full of empty cap tins.

Have you ever fired anything in them besides actual FFg or FFFg Black Powder? I can't believe that your arbor would be that soft for that low round count even with the relatively mild carbon steel the Italians use. I guess I'm just used to seeing pistols that have well greased arbors and lube either on the ball or on a wad under the ball.

Based on what you have told us, you should reconsider your shooting regimen for the sake of your revolver.

Regards
Mako

 

[BHP FAN]

I can't believe he's never had a chain fire. Ah well, our's is a sport people by individualists, I guess we should ''celebrate our diversity''...I usually won't indulge in telling another how to shoot...we've all pretty much got our methods. That said, I'd keep my distance at the range.

 

[TheRodDoc]

It is about 1500 a Year not 33 years. That would be times 39 if I shot 30 each week. That's 58,500.


And a pin gage or wire gage does easily fit in there on mine. Yours must be different.

Here is a thinner wire. and nothing. For the last time, There is always room to put a wire in my gun. No bending or hitting anything.

View attachment 137758

View attachment 137759

 

[J-Bar]

My compliments on the graphics. Doc, in post #102, you make the point that the arbor recess must be flush with the face of the cylinder. I don't understand why the arbor recess exists in the first place...what function does it serve? It seems that one problem could be eliminated if the arbor were the same diameter all along its length. Not trying to be a smart_a$$ just honest ignorance on my part.

 

[BHP FAN]

perhaps to hold grease?

 

[makos_goods]

It is about 1500 a Year not 33 years. That would be times 39 if I shot 30 each week. That's 58,500.

Doc,
I'm confused about that claim to over 58,000, it couldn't be more than 2,080 if you shot an average of even 40 rounds a month.

Let's do the math... A while back, two days after you joined The High Road you told us you hadn't shot it (your 1851) at the time in 32 years:

Dated February 4,2010, 03:34 AM

My favorite is this 1851 colt. second generation fairly low serial no. At least I think it's low. 48xx
I used to shoot it a lot.

I used to shoot a lot of different guns when I was younger. but haven't shot any thing but my Ruger single six 22 in 32 years. All others haven't been out of the safe since then till now. I want to start shooting again. I guess I'm a little behind on whats new.

And then then you told us seven months later you had just gotten it out to shoot for the first time since the late 1970's.

Dated September 3, 2010, 04:26 PM

I have just got out my 1851 colt to shoot it again. been many years since I last used it. (late 70's)

Low and behold can't use it.

The new caps they make now days won't clear the frame. Tried cci and remington. 10's or 11's. Normally takes no. 10 caps.
Seems the newer caps have more powder in them and or the water proofing and hold the cap out to far.
When you put one on a nipple and try to turn the cylinder the cap hits the edge of the loading notch. I dug through some of my boxes of shooting stuff and finally found a few old caps from the 60's that I used for that gun. They will clear just fine.

Original 1851 revolvers had a close clearance between the end of the nipple and the frame back. This insured that no caps can fall off the nipples in use. But now If I were to get them past the frame they would be holding the cylinder ahead and most likely set off a chain fire.

The nipples are original but I guess I will have to either seat them deeper or cut them shorter.

One other thing is that the flash holes are only .025" dia.

Guess those two things are why this gun never had much of any problems with caps coming off or blowing open or pushing the hammer back. Always worked well. shot after shot.
Never had a misfire either with it so the holes must be big enough.

Later we read were you reworked your cones so you were once again able to shoot it again.

I was being charitable and allowing you a year of shooting from February of last year instead going back to September of 2010 as you have told us. If it was from September it would only be 240 rounds at 40 rounds per month. But since you told us about your grueling 280 round marathon shoot without a failure I decided to allow 1,500 to 2,000 just to make sure.

Am I missing something? I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed but I can normally do rudimentary math. As the numbers go lower my concern for the longevity of you nice 1851 grows...

Regards,
Mako

 

[arcticap]

If TheRodDoc shot it for 6 or 7 years in the 1970's before putting it away and averaged 100 shots per month for 6.5 years, then the total would be 7800 shots.
Another few hundred shots since then would bring the total to 8100 shots.
That's considerably more than 2,000 shots and significantly less than 58,000.
However I don't understand why it's suppose to be desirable to always shoot without using any lubrication on the arbor.
At times it would be beneficial to be able to continue to shoot without requiring any.
But on the other hand if it works just as good if not better with lubrication then why not use any to protect the parts?
Would the lubrication attract too much fouling?
Are the gun's tolerances so tight that some kind of lube can't be used without accumulating residue and affecting how well it runs?

 

[makos_goods]

arcticap,
True, true...I guess people can get confused... But like you said still not many shots considering the erosion.

Regards,
Mako


Doc,

It is about 1500 a Year not 33 years. That would be times 39 if I shot 30 each week. That's 58,500.


And a pin gage or wire gage does easily fit in there on mine. Yours must be different.

Here is a thinner wire. and nothing. For the last time, There is always room to put a wire in my gun. No bending or hitting anything.

I think it is time to clean your revolver after all of that shooting, there appears to be something in your hammer channel keeping your hammer from going all of the way forward. Maybe you haven't noticed it yet but the hammer nose is the same distance from the cone clearance cuts in both pictures.

If you compare the clearance from the rear of the cone to the recoil shield and the obvious clearance between the cone and the hammer face in the second picture you can tell it is much larger than the .003" you spent so much time setting it for. Didn't you tell us a while back that you were running .002-.003" of clearance between the cones and the recoil shield? So basically they should be identical by your reports.

You'd better check it.

Regards,
Mako

 

[TheRodDoc]

Everything I have said and shown about this gun is so. It shoots dry just like I said. As far as dates up to when I didn't shoot it as much I'm not so sure. It could have been 10 years later.
It's a long time to remember dates. As far as starting to shoot it recently, I didn't mean that day I posted. Been shooting it regularly for 3 or 4 years by the time I posted here. There again, I didn't keep track. To me that is recently.

I have bought many many boxes of 1000 caps for it through the years. All CCI no. 10's. They are the only ones that fit it. I used up the old caps I had left and found the new box of 1000 didn't clear the recoil shield. that's when I had to cut the factory nipples. The gun is on it's 2nd bolt and it is almost time to replace it again.

The .002" to .003" is between the installed caps and the recoil shield. not the cones. I can't remember exactly now but it was around .020" I cut off the cones.

Here is an old photo before they were cut and one after. The original ones were longer then the cylinder.
View attachment 137833
View attachment 137834

This is with the caps on the shortened cones as it is now. .002 to .003" gap between shield and cap. It varies a little for the caps very some.
View attachment 137835

 

[makos_goods]

Everything I have said and shown about this gun is so. It shoots dry just like I said. As far as dates up to when I didn't shoot it as much I'm not so sure. It could have been 10 years later.
It's a long time to remember dates. As far as starting to shoot it recently, I didn't mean that day I posted. Been shooting it regularly for 3 or 4 years by the time I posted here. There again, I didn't keep track. To me that is recently.

I have bought many many boxes of 1000 caps for it through the years. All CCI no. 10's. They are the only ones that fit it. I used up the old caps I had left and found the new box of 1000 didn't clear the recoil shield. that's when I had to cut the factory nipples. The gun is on it's 2nd bolt and it is almost time to replace it again.

The .002" to .003" is between the installed caps and the recoil shield. not the cones. I can't remember exactly now but it was around .020" I cut off the cones.

Here is an old photo before they were cut and one after. The original ones were longer then the cylinder.
View attachment 137833
View attachment 137834

This is with the caps on the shortened cones as it is now. .002 to .003" gap between shield and cap. It varies a little for the caps very some.
View attachment 137835

Oh I believe you Doc. I'm just not sure if everyone else does anymore.

You've been extremely adamant about your certainties with the way things work and the specifics about everything. Your recollection appears to be faulty not on the order of a few thousandths here or there but on the order of decades of lost memory.

Regards,
Mako

 

[TheRodDoc]

The measurements I have posted are accurate. What is ludicrous is that you think you can just look a picture and tell me my measurements are not right. I use micrometers, gages or dial calipers to measure my gun. Not by just looking at it or at pictures of it.

If we all could do that we wouldn't have a need for measuring tools. I could have saved a lot of money in my machine shop.

A friend and I have designed and engineered and built:
The Worlds First Diesel Powered Vehicle of Any Kind To Break Over 300 MPH.
And that is no simple feat. Built from a pile of tubing, plate, round stock and sheet metal.
This year we will go for 351 mph in an unlimited class. We hold the current record in the C/DS class.

View attachment 137850

So don't even try to tell me I can't figure out the very simplest machine like a revolver and how to work on it. Wrong!

Oh! About the gas cutting. As you think, It has nothing to do with my arbor being soft. (it is not)
It doesn't make a difference if a piece of steel is hard or soft. Both flame cut the same as long as the alloys are the same. And even if slightly different alloy the difference would be very minimal. What does make a difference is how the flame is contained and directed at the arbor. The narrow gap I like is what does that. opening the gap even .0005" might stop it. or closing the gap the same amount might too. It is simple to repair if ever needed so I'm not worried about it in the least.
The gun will out last me and the next owner.

 

[junkman_01]