New brass through the expander die difficult

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wiiawiwb

wiiawiwb

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I've reloaded about 1,100 rounds of .45 Colt. I've been reloading the brass from ~ 200 rounds of ammo I purchased 6 months ago. About half the brass is Starline the other half mixed. I'm using my Forster CoAx and everything has been going great.

I decided to buy 200 new Starline brass. They arrived this week and started today to reload some. First, I put some brass through the resizing die (Lee carbide set) which went through with a little more resistance then the used brass.

Then I went through the case expansion die and it took a ton of physcial effort to get it belled. I tried several things. I put some new brass through the wet tumbler with the ArmorAll Wash and Wax but that didn't help. Then took the expansion die, loosened it and started from scratch and that didn't help.

I'm at a loss why it takes so much effort to muscle the new brass through expansion die. Any ideas?
 
start by measuring the brass against the older brass you have. length-size-case thickness.
 
This is common with new brass, especially Starline brand. The final step in their process is washing the brass in a detergent bath to remove all the sizing lubricant. This leaves the brass absolutely bare. Bare brass, sans lubricant of any kind, will gall badly when in contact with bare steel.

The solution is to tumble the brass in corncob or walnut to impart some debris, which acts as a lubricant. The other solution is to introduce some type of lubricant to the inside of the new brass, and then after belling, remove it.

There have been several threads about this problem on this forum and other reloading forums. It's a pretty common problem. In fact, I can show you a piece of brand new Starline .38 Special brass that was pulled completely in half when the expander was withdrawn. It was necessary to carefully file a slit almost all the way through the stuck half lengthwise so it could be peeled off the expander.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
new Starline brass.
Click to expand...
As posted, there's the issue. I ran into it with some new Starline .41 Mag brass. Like Fred said, tumble it with some polish and it will go smoothly. rcmodel's method will work as well of course. I tumbled it.
 
Is there a dry lubricant I can apply that doesn't have to be removed after belling?
 
http://www.starlinebrass.com/faqs/ "The land for expanding case mouth is too long and when you begin to bell mouth the bottom of expander gets into the thicker taper of case and wedges causing it to be very hard to get back out. We have modified several by increasing radius on end and slightly shortening expanding land and this eliminated the problem completely"
 
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I ran into the same problem with a batch of wet tumbled once-fired brass that I bought. It is squeaky clean and hangs up on the PTX when I lower the ram on my progressive press. Besides being annoying, it shakes the powder measure a varying amount each time, causing inconsistent drops. I've been spritzing the brass from that batch with One Shot which helps but is a pain. Never thought of tumbling it with some polish. Duh! Guess what's on my to-do list.
 
wiiawiwb said:
Is there a dry lubricant I can apply that doesn't have to be removed after belling?
Click to expand...
It isn't really dry (when applied), but it doesn't have to be removed...Hornady One-Shot.

I personally use a home brew version of Dillon's version...a mixture of lanolin and alcohol.

Either way, be sure to let the carrier evaporate before processing the cases...about 10 minutes
 
Very common, but unless it causes problems of some sort it's totally innocuous. Slows down the process, but a light film of Lee's water base sizing lube on a Q-Tip applied to oh, every 5th case helps. Let it dry good.

I've also tumbled new cases that were "sticky" with some Nu Finish car polish.

But basically I like that tight feel. In 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP and 10mm I taper crimp only, I feel it just enhances bullet grip.
 
Pledge type spray furniture wax. Light "spritz" in bottom of empty container. Place brass in container, SHAKE!
No need to post clean, inert when dry.
Been doing this for twenty plus years for 9mm loaded in progressive machine.
 
Personally, I found the Armor All Wash and Wax to be the basic solution with new Starline. I also polish the expander with ultra-fine ScotchBrite hand pad and then give it a squirt of OneShot.

I would really rather do this without committing a primer or going back through the sizer station, then expanding again, so it seems like processing the brass just for expansion would be a good way to precondition it. Then I would be using an expander die without belling rather than a powder-through expander.

I don't see any reason to size it when new. New brass going on the press would go directly to the priming station. Even priming new brass by hand would be something to consider, brass then ready for the powder drop station and belling.
 
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I purchased 1k of .44 mag starline brass and experienced the same thing. As already stated lube reduces the issue significantly.

What I did is dissolve a tube of lee lube in about 16oz of alcohol. I then put it in a spray bottle. It only takes 5 or 6 spritzes over a pile of brass to do the trick. Just mix them up a bit so all of the cases get some and let it dry.

No need to remove it later either.
 
You know, I had the same thing happen with new IMI and also Starline brass. Once I loaded and fired the brass once, they were fine. It's not the first time I've experienced this though, it happens from time to time, I think it has something to do with the finish on the inside of the brass. I think once it gets impregnated with carbon deposits, the problem goes away.

I've ripped the case heads off of a couple that got stuck in the expander (belling) die, RCBS dies. So instead of continuing to deal with that nightmare, I decided to just use my tried and trusted method of seating without belling. Simply chamfer the inside of the case mouth enough to allow a bullet to seat without shaving, put the usual roll crimp on it, done.

GS
 
Are you talking about the actual resizing or resizing? Isn't the same thing.
"...took a ton of physcial effort to get it belled..." Sounds like you're trying to put too much bell/flare on. It only needs to be enough so the bullet will sit in the case mouth.
Carbide dies shouldn't need any lube, but it won't bother anything if you do lube the cases.
 
The case mouth on new brass is square and the edges are sharp and grab the expander plug often breaking off leaving a fine wire like brass shavings. To prevent this use a chamfer tool and chamfer the inside of the case mouth on new brass and you will find they don't grab the plug. Doesn't take much just enough to break the sharp edge.

Once fired brass doesn't have this problem as the edges have been broken or smoothed when first loaded.
 
It has to do with the physical properties of steel and brass. Without lubrication, brass sticks to steel like glue.

Don't ever try to tap a hole in brass without lubrication or you'll break the tap off in the hole with small taps. I snapped off a 1/4-20 tap trying to tap a hole in a brass block without lubrication. I'm sure there are some machinists in the group who will attest to this, too.

Sunray, he's trying to bell the case mouth. Bare brass will stick to bare steel, and I know of no carbide expanders for handgun rounds. It's a different operation from case sizing.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
If you have a vibratory tumbler, put a capful of Nu-Finish car polish in the corncob; mix and vibrate for about 30 minutes. Really helps.
 
Heck, I've tried everything I can think of, to include that I always chamfer the mouths before belling them, but some head stamps and lots of brass, still drag and then gall when contacting bare steel. in this respect, I think Reloader Fred hit the nail on the head.

GS
 
I just tried some new Starline 357 Magnum going straight to the expander only, no belling. That was a single stage operation to handle the galling tug. I did use a couple squirts of One Shot onto the expander plug and believe I recall having previously washed these cases in ArmorAll Wash and Wax. Nothing was even close to being really stuck.

So the cases have never been sized but they have been expanded. I am guessing they will now process through every station pretty much as if once-fired. I am currently running coated lead and using an RCBS Cowboy expander, .001 larger than standard, the max the cases' ID will ever be stretched, save for the bullet insertion and forming to the chamber when fired.
 
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GooseGestapo said:
Pledge type spray furniture wax. Light "spritz" in bottom of empty container. Place brass in container, SHAKE!
No need to post clean, inert when dry.
Been doing this for twenty plus years for 9mm loaded in progressive machine.
Click to expand...
I do the same thing but with Hornady One-shot.

I bet the Lemon Pledge is a lot cheaper. Thanks GooseGestapo.
 
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